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Old 11-29-2000, 08:46 AM   #51
joeysola
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I have been watching all of the replys to this thread and it seems as if most of the replys dance around my question. How does aikido prepare you for an unavoidable fight? I understand Aikido has good defenses against weapons and I respect that, however so do many other martial arts, it is not unique to Aikido. I want to know how Aikido works in a specific senario, one on one, no weapons. If you just ignore the UFC's and look at them to see how Aikido is very limited then you are dilusional and have a suffer from a false sense of security. I will be more specific, What do you do if some one is itting on top of you and is punching at your face? Or what if you have to deal with someone who actual knows how to use combinations in their strikes. Some of you have said that Aikido works very well against multiple attackers, how is that if aikido cannot match up one on one? I am hoping someone can give me a straight answer. And please don't say that these situations would never happen, they do.
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Old 11-29-2000, 08:48 AM   #52
joeysola
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Sorry about the grammar mistakes, I was in a hurry.
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Old 11-29-2000, 09:24 AM   #53
ian
 
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Ai symbol reply

Hi Joeysola,

I will try to reply in as direct way as possible:

1. Preparation for an unavoidable fight:
Aikido (should) teach you necessary skills for identifying aggresive behaviour and moving BEFORE a strike is initiated. e.g. Ueshiba once lept/ran across the room at someone who lifted their arms up in defence, which allowed him to execute ikkyo
2. Someone on top of you punching at your face:
Aikido (should) be teaching you that this is not the position you ever want to get in to; by way of fight avoidance & body movement. Aikido (should) be teaching you to limit the potential for other people to find weaknesses in your stance and techniques so you cannot be thrown or struck in potentially dangerous areas.
If you are in this position, aikido works with hip movement, unbalancing (think of kokyu ho) and wrist locks, all of which can be employed to get rid of an attacker (as I have used myself).
3. Combinations:
Combinations are hard to fight from whatever martial art (or sport) you practise. As mentioned in 1 - a major concept of aikido is to get in first. Another aspect is irimi (entering) where you get close enough (either in front or behind your partner) to avoid damaging techniques, and give you the opportunity to do technique. Unlike sports, Aikido is not about scoring points from punches. Glancing punches are unavoidable whatever martial art you practise. Aikido, being a martial art, trains you to protect your life. It derives from many potentially lethal (or at least bone breaking) techniques which were used to kill and disable, not to show off.

I have used aikido both in multiple attack and one on one real situations and have absolutely no doubt of its use as a self defence. In these case I did suffer hits from my opponents which caused bruises (boo hoo), however I put my opponents in a position where I could have killed or broken their wrists/arms (though of course I did not).

Ueshiba was regularly challenged by martial artists in the top of their field, and defeated them (And at one time crippled a judo person so he could never train again - which I'm sure he regretted). He also gained a prestigous martial arts award from the Japanese government, which only a handful of people have ever got. Admittedly he had himself trained in around 30 different martial arts, and I always encourage people who do aikido to train in is as many other things as they can - however, aikido is the framework of body movement and the philosophy in which all my training fits in to.

Aikido takes much longer to train in than most other martial arts because it is not about the techniques that you see, it is about subtleties of body movement and aspects of the technique that you don't fully understand until many years of training (and I have only been doing it for 12 years).

I write this, not so much for you, but for anyone who is interested in long term diligent training, and may be discouraged by your criticisms. I am glad you raised these points because it helps us to make sure that our martial art is based in reality and highlights the point that during training we must train as if our uke has the ability ot kill us. If aikido doesn't hit the spot for you right now, follow your own path. You have one of the few qualities lacking in many martial artisits and which was prized by Ueshiba,

sincerity.


[Edited by ian on November 29, 2000 at 09:27am]
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Old 11-29-2000, 12:30 PM   #54
crystalwizard
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Quote:
joeysola wrote:

How does aikido prepare you for an unavoidable fight?

What do you do if some one is itting on top of you and is punching at your face?
Or what if you have to deal with someone who actual knows how to use combinations in their strikes. Some of you have said that Aikido works very well against multiple attackers, how is that if aikido cannot match up one on one?
first, Aikido allows you to build a set of reflexs that are very good at getting you out of the way of whatever attack is coming at you. Meaning in a lot of cases you aren't going to be ON the ground with someone sitting on top of you punching you and quite likely at the same time you were moving out of the way of the attacker who tried to put you on the ground, you put THEM on the ground and away from you.

That's general

Second in answer to your intense need to know exactly how it's going to work in any given situation the answer is that totaly depends on the people in the situation. Everyone's reflexs are different. You're not trying to learn a set of moves that you remember how to do for a specific situation, you're programing your body to react. What you do if someone throws a punch at your face is totaly different that what I will do.

What I suggest you do is go to a dojo and join the classes. For a couple years. and dont complaine that karate would be much faster either. Both aikido and karate might be martial arts but comparing how fast you'll move forward in one to how fast you'll move forward in the other is a lot like saying you can learn to swim in 3 lessons so you should be able to learn how to do olympic diving in 3 lessons too.

you started the thread by stating that it didn't work at all. It however does. You based your observations on a friend who doesn't seem that experienced and on watching a couple classes. You haven't based them on any real experience of your own. But since you seem to be still interested...this thread has been going on for quite a while now and you're still reading it...I really think you'd do yourself a bigger favor to go get out on the mat, practice with people, ask your what ifs of some experienced people and maybe even try some of the moves you dont think Aikido will work against on some of the more experienced people and move forward from there.

Might also go to the aikido faq site and read through some of the experiences from people discussing exactly how their aikido did work in an irl situation as well.

____________
Kelly Christiansen

A loving person lives in a loving world. A hostile person lives in a hostile world. Everyone you meet is your mirror
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Old 11-29-2000, 05:52 PM   #55
Mike Collins
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You're probably right, it doesn't work in a fight.

Don't fight. Don't do Aikido if you insist on fighting, they're not compatible.

Don't argue whether or not it works. It's a huge waste of time.

Go fight if you want to fight well, there is no other way to get good at fighting.

I've used Aikido principles in self defense, all of the fighting stuff is irrelevant beyond that.
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Old 11-30-2000, 11:43 AM   #56
sceptoor
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Talking

Quote:
joeysola wrote:
I have been watching all of the replys to this thread and it seems as if most of the replys dance around my question. How does aikido prepare you for an unavoidable fight? I understand Aikido has good defenses against weapons and I respect that, however so do many other martial arts, it is not unique to Aikido. I want to know how Aikido works in a specific senario, one on one, no weapons. If you just ignore the UFC's and look at them to see how Aikido is very limited then you are dilusional and have a suffer from a false sense of security. I will be more specific, What do you do if some one is itting on top of you and is punching at your face? Or what if you have to deal with someone who actual knows how to use combinations in their strikes. Some of you have said that Aikido works very well against multiple attackers, how is that if aikido cannot match up one on one? I am hoping someone can give me a straight answer. And please don't say that these situations would never happen, they do.
JoeySola-
Wow, this was a long thread. You've obviously touched a nerve somewhere. You've asked a genuine and relevent question, but you have also insulted the integrity and legitimacy of Aikido at the same time. I am not an instructor of Aikido, nor am I even "intermediately" ranked, but it doesn't take a genius to know that Aikido IS EXTREMELY effective in defending your life. It is also a martial art of LIFE AND PEACE, in that your goal is to AVOID opposition by stepping out of the line of attack and redirecting it, instead of "opposing" with more force and strength, since that ultimately just leads to hurting yourself. More so, it is about blending with your attacker in order to avoid harm to EITHER person.
I decided to train in Aikido because of those reasons. I read and learned as much about it as I could, and chose to train in Aikido because it simply makes more sense to "avoid the fight" and neutralize it rather than "engage in fighting" in the first place. It has been a life changing experience for me to say the least.

When people ask me what Aikido is, I have to point them to this website. The only thing this site is missing is a dojo in which to experience training. You say that Aikido is impractical, I say it's the only one that IS practical. Many people in this thread have explained a lot to you about the practicalities of Aikido and I cannot possibly say it better myself. If you want to join a MA where trophies are your goal and competing in tournaments is your passion, Aikido is not for you, but if you want to better yourself and follow a path that leads to life, then Aikido is for you. Grappling and submission fighting is great one on one, and Karate, Tang Su Do, Tae Kwon Do, are all practical self defense, and yes, other martial arts have defense techniques against weapons, but they are self defense through opposition, and thus there will always be a "winner" and a "loser". Not true in Aikido. You can have two really high ranked opponents, and let's just say they are both ranked the same, but the biggest, tallest and/or strongest of two opponents ALWAYS has the advantage and someone is going to win or lose. Again, not true in Aikido.

How does Aikido prepare you for an unavoidable fight?? That's the whole purpose of Aikido. Aikido cannot be performed without first being attacked. The stronger the attack, the easier it is for the Aikidoist to neutralize the attack.

This is all basic and general, and if you wish to learn more, I suggest you visit your local dojo and participate in a class.
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Old 11-30-2000, 01:47 PM   #57
Nick P.
 
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Wink

Ok, time to put up or...

Go to a few classes (for a few years), and if it isn't the most fun you have ever had, and making some of the closest friends you'll ever make, and learn a huge amount about yourself, as well as become far more comfortable with yourself... hey, I wonder how many of those NHB fighters have/are all those things?

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Old 11-30-2000, 02:17 PM   #58
tarik
 
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Quote:
joeysola wrote:
I have been watching all of the replys to this thread and it seems as if most of the replys dance around my question.
This is not intended to dance around the question, but you may perceive it as such.

Quote:
How does aikido prepare you for an unavoidable fight?
I've been in plenty of fights, but I don't believe in the unavoidable fight. Aikido is as much about learning HOW to avoid a fight as it is about how to handle a fight once it begins.

Case in point: I (stupidly) allowed someone to kick me in the back and the fight he desired still did not materialize because I had decided and that I would not fight in this situation. He gave up... if he had continued to attack I certainly would have had to defend myself, but he couldn't cope with my refusal to respond to that point. He COULDN'T attack me to my face, and while it was foolish of me to turn my back on him and let him knock me down, he still couldn't handle it when I got up, picked up my things, and still refused to strike him. He wouldn't attack me again.

Quote:
If you just ignore the UFC's and look at them to see how Aikido is very limited then you are dilusional and have a suffer from a false sense of security.
If you are using UFC as an example of a real fight, then you are easily as delusional. UFC is really all about entertainment.

Quote:
I will be more specific, What do you do if some one is itting on top of you and is punching at your face?
There are many responses. Kokyu-dosa. Apply kuzushi (balance breaking). Yeah, most people don't practice from this position in Aikido, but when I occasional have cross trained in BJJ or Judo, I've found that the principles (and pins) I've learned in Aikido have taken me a LONG way when moving on the ground.

Quote:
Or what if you have to deal with someone who actual knows how to use combinations in their strikes.
A combination is simply multiple opportunities for me to apply kuzushi (balance breaking). If I get hit a few times before that, so what? Once kuzushi has been applied with success, the rest of a combination is useless.

The long study for me in Aikido has been learning how to properly apply that kuzushi and all the other issues such as zanshin (total, continual awareness), ma-ai (distance management), posture, and much more are all about getting to that point.

Quote:
how is that if aikido cannot match up one on one? I am hoping someone can give me a straight answer.
Aikido matches up fine one on one.

Quote:
And please don't say that these situations would never happen, they do.
So have they happened to you? They have to me when I was young and stupid, but frankly not at all since then.

Tarik

Tarik Ghbeish
Jiyūshin-ryū AikiBudō - Iwae Dojo

MASAKATSU AGATSU -- "The true victory of self-mastery."
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Old 11-30-2000, 02:28 PM   #59
Mike Collins
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Badda Boom, Badda Bing
It's a Beautiful Thing!!

Thank You Tarik

What he said!!
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Old 11-30-2000, 06:22 PM   #60
les paul
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Quote:
joeysola wrote:
I have been watching all of the replys to this thread and it seems as if most of the replys dance around my question. How does aikido prepare you for an unavoidable fight? I understand Aikido has good defenses against weapons and I respect that, however so do many other martial arts, it is not unique to Aikido. I want to know how Aikido works in a specific senario, one on one, no weapons. If you just ignore the UFC's and look at them to see how Aikido is very limited then you are dilusional and have a suffer from a false sense of security. I will be more specific, What do you do if some one is itting on top of you and is punching at your face? Or what if you have to deal with someone who actual knows how to use combinations in their strikes. Some of you have said that Aikido works very well against multiple attackers, how is that if aikido cannot match up one on one? I am hoping someone can give me a straight answer. And please don't say that these situations would never happen, they do.

Joeysola

Give it up. Ok your skeptical that it will work. Fine!

Budo is Budo nothing more..... nothing less......

Paul Calugaru
Michigan
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Old 12-01-2000, 07:50 AM   #61
joeysola
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Hey guys and gals this guy Suru started up a similar thread and he has a background in Aikido. It is interesting stuff check it out.
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Old 12-11-2000, 12:24 PM   #62
sue i.
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why are you fighting so much?

Hi there, I am dubious about the true intention for the start of this thread. Are you really curious about Aikido or just want to tell us all off? I think people who write these things just want to anger up our blood. I have never been in a street fight and never intend to. I do know someone who has had to use his Aikido skills and done so sucessfully(once to thwart some men tring to kidnap his children). But what I do occasionally do is slip on ice or fall down a few stairs. It's the ukemi and the centering that will save your butt in a "real life" situation.

sue i.
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Old 12-11-2000, 12:33 PM   #63
crystalwizard
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Quote:
joeysola wrote:
Hey guys and gals this guy Suru started up a similar thread and he has a background in Aikido. It is interesting stuff check it out.
Yes and you'll notice that both in his thread and in yours the sttement that aikido doesn't work in an irl situation has been refuted, rather soundly.

What else I've noticed is that you are either completely ignoreing everything that everyone has said or that you dont actualy care about what kind of responses you'll get. It's begining to look like you either started this thread just to get people to post irl situations for your reading enjoyment or else you are one of those people who feel the world revolves around their opinion and who only accept opinions from others as long as those opinions match their own.


____________
Kelly Christiansen

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Old 12-12-2000, 08:43 AM   #64
Aikilove
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Just a question joysola: Do you after 60 and some posts start to grip that Aikido actually works in real life situation (and I don't mean UFC) or do you think all the examples nice people chare are fake? Otherwise I can't see why you still have doubts, that is you're real intention was to read these stories for your own satisfaction. Think about that.

Jakob B

Jakob Blomquist
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Old 12-12-2000, 10:25 AM   #65
joeysola
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First off, I am a very nice guy. Also, my whole reason for sticking around is that no one has been willing to admit that aikido has limitations. All martial arts have their strengths and weaknesses, but the majority of people who have answered this thread seem to not be able to accept that fact and still think that Aikido is the ultimate martial art, no one has been able to step back and really take a look at how aikido is practiced and it's relationship to real altercations. Any serious critisicism by me has led to personal attacks and that is hilarious, none of you know me. I just wanted to shake things up a bit, but everyone got all defensive, boo hoo. We are talking about martial arts here, they are not that important, I did not mean to offend all of you, I never tried to insult any of you. Relax everybody. Peace.
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Old 12-12-2000, 10:47 AM   #66
ian
 
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You may be right, in that strong objections often result from deep set insecurities.

However I am completely obsessed with Aikido , and although it is not an 'ultimate martial art' (whatever that is), it definately offers ME things I have never found in any other martial art (though admittedly I've only done Karate, Ju Jitsu, Tang Soo do and Judo in addition to aikido).

Ian

P.S. can we leave this discussion thread alone now? it seems to have gotten us nowhere.

Happy training to whatever people choose

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Old 12-12-2000, 11:18 AM   #67
Matt Banks
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Re: Fighting

Quote:
''I have seen two high ranking Aikido practitioners in the early UFC videos.
Dear Joeylsa

The Aikido practitioners were
slaughtered even though in both instances the Aikido practitioners had the weight advantage.''

Lets get something straight I have all the ufc matcheson tape up to ufc16. I can tell you there has never been a proper aikidoka who has fought in that grappling orientated compettion and email SEG the company that runs the show the one person you speak about did it as his 4th martial art he claimed to have trained in 6, now I think you get the picture seeing as his main art was muay tai which I think conflicts with Aiki tecniques alot. He according to seg he had proberly only done it for about a few months. I presume you use the Ufc as anexample of a real fight as there arent any gloves, well then your a fool. Look I come from a family of police and can tell you from national surveys that most attacks/fights etc occur 2+ v 1 ok, so when your locked up to one enemy his other 4 mates are stabbing you in the back. What about weapons we deal with them in Aiki including live bladed weapons, unlike in most grappling including GJJ I know Ive done it. In aiki we constantly deal with multiple attacks live weapons awareness etc etc all that are needed in a real fight not in the paded ring of the ufc 1v1 with a time limit

thanks Matt Banks

''Zanshin be aware hold fast your centre''
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Old 12-12-2000, 11:51 AM   #68
Mike Collins
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Aikido as the Ultimate martial art?!???

What in the world is an "Ultimate Martial Art"? the concept is stupid.

I have met some fairly ultimate martial artists, but they were individuals. They were from more than Aikido backgrounds.

An ultimate martial art is like an ultimate canvas and paint set. They mean just about nothing till someone picks them up and expresses themselves with them.

Joeysola, best of luck. Move on, grow, improve.

Or don't, it is all good with me.
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Old 12-12-2000, 11:54 AM   #69
Kevin73
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Just thought I would toss this into the pot. I read an article from Rickson Gracie (I think). Anyways, he was talking about the best self-defense in America is to buy a gun. He said that in Brazil GJJ is the best because fighting is still "honorable". Both sides will gather around in a circle and watch the two people fight it out.
He said in America that doesn't happen, the other friends will jump in and he admitted that going to the ground is not a good idea and something else is needed.

Like alot of people have said, all arts have strengths and weaknesses. What many people fail to do though is look at different attacks and find viable solutions to those using the principles and concepts in their art. Then what we get is a "jack of all trades and an ace of nothing", they study lots of different arts for a short time and never understand the deeper principles behind it.

Yes, aikido has "weaknesses" but by understanding those you can overcome them and negate them when you put in the time to understanding the art as a whole. But, to make a blanket statement that it does not work is just as erroneous as saying that aikido is the best there is in martial arts
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Old 12-12-2000, 12:36 PM   #70
torokun
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Circle What Aikido Lacks...

Quote:
joeysola wrote:
...no one has been willing to admit that aikido has limitations. All martial arts have their strengths and weaknesses...
I agree wholeheartedly with your opinion... I believe that aikido promotes the idea that everything will be revealed if you just train hard. This IMHO, is simply not true. There are some bad aikido teachers. If you manage to get one, you can't help but learn crappy aikido no matter how much you train...

As to strengths and weaknesses, of course there are many weaknesses in aikido. Now in the dojos I've trained at, here are the major weaknesses as I see them:

1. There is no practice of complex attacks with vigor -- for example, one might attack with their weight over the back foot, left foot forward, grabbing uke's wrist with the right hand... In another instance, he might hook his front foot behind uke's front foot, or just step on it at the same time. This sort of thing, of course, is never practiced. How about a strike from the head or shoulder at the same time as a knee butt? These are common things that happen in chinese arts, but aikidoka never practice these things.

2. Footwork. Footwork is taught for irimi and tenkan, but after the entrance, it's usually just whatever works. I know that usually footwork must be adjusted to fit the situation, but without a good _system_ for footwork, the average aikidoka can not take advantage of his full range of rotation.

3. Breathing. Aikido books talk a lot about hara and tanden, but that's about it. There are no specific exercises for developing proper breathing or internal power. Some might say that this can be done simply through practice, but I thoroughly disagree. There are great ways to develop these things, but they are not taught in aikido...

4. Body connection. The internal connection of the body through the fascia, etc. can begin to develop through aikido practice, but I don't believe that many of the teachers really understand what's going on internally in this regard, because aikido usually just doesn't teach it. I believe that most _high_ level aikidoka have some degree of internal connection going, but usually not a really thorough understanding of it. This is why great aikidoka can feel really good one day, and lousy the next -- they don't really know how to turn on the connection inside their body at will... On this same note, since strikes are not practiced separately, aikidoka cannot usually channel their power through their whole body very well, to produce a powerful strike. They don't know how to store energy in the spine, legs, or arms, and release it...

Now, I love aikido for a lot of reasons, but I also believe that it does lack these things... Most other martial arts do too! But as O-Sensei suggested adding to the art, while maintaining its principles, I'm sure that some people who've learned these things will bring them to their aikido at some point...


--torokun
(Trevor)
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Old 12-12-2000, 01:06 PM   #71
chrisinbrasil
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Cool That last post...

Hi,
Torokun. I enjoyed your post.

#1. Superb, insightful, and though youŽll get a rash of people replying with hurt feelings, true.

#2. Ditto, after the sequence starts with initial footwork, youŽll be hardpressed to find free continuance. It would basically become a free-for-all because after the conflict begins, range(maai) is VERY difficult to maintain.

#3. Very important, generally overlooked.

#4. Started getting a little out of my league with internal power and stuff.

And as for you Mr. Joeysola, is this what you were looking for? I think that many people recognize weakness in whatever art they practice but chastizing people and saying the donŽt pisses some people off. IŽve read all the posts and I didnŽt feel that ANYONE made it sound like Aikido was what you feebily described as the "Ultimate Martial art". IMO

At your service,
Christopher Wilson
Hito no tachiba wo kanga eru.
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Old 12-12-2000, 02:03 PM   #72
crystalwizard
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I see you're still ignoring the forum rules to sign your posts with your real name. figures.

Quote:
joeysola wrote:
Also, my whole reason for sticking around is that no one has been willing to admit that aikido has limitations.
Oh for heavens sake and here I took you at your original word and assumed you were actualy intersted in finding out if it DOES work in an IRL situation, not just trolling to try to get someone to say 'Gasp! oh dear! I just realized...if a mac truck comes at me I can't stop it with Ki!!' of course it has limitations..so does anything else you can mention. So do all the people that practice whatever it is they practice.

Quote:

but the majority of people who have answered this thread seem to not be able to accept that fact and still think that Aikido is the ultimate martial art
Actualy, most of the answers were pointed at trying to answer the accusation you made with the subject line and your first post. that Aikido doesn't work AT ALL in a fight. any fight. in any situation. There is no ultimate martial art. I'm curious what you believe is the ultimate martial art, if you are really good at it and if you would be willing to attack someone like say..Toehei Sensei with it.

Quote:

no one has been able to step back and really take a look at how aikido is practiced and it's relationship to real altercations.
On the contrary, a large number of people have explained in detail how effective it is in real altercations. You have completely ignored all such comments. Care to explaine why? or do you think that everyone that has posted anything of the sort has made it all up and is lieing?

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Any serious critisicism by me has led to personal attacks and that is hilarious, none of you know me. I just wanted to shake things up a bit, but everyone got all defensive, boo hoo.
Personal attacks on you didn't start untill you posted your little 'oooo look at this other thread' and I responded. If you feel that all the rest were personal attacks on you....that's your own head trip. Perhaps we all should have just ignored your question at the start realizing you werent' actualy intersted in information only in diseminating your own side of things. That's fine...but dont wrap it up in the pretense of asking a question and seeking for knowledge.

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We are talking about martial arts here, they are not that important, I did not mean to offend all of you, I never tried to insult any of you. Relax everybody. Peace.
hmmmm let's see...I spend...5 days a week, 1.5 to 2 hours a class training..I'm pretty sure a lot of other people do more. no i guess it's not important to me at all or anyone else.
I bothered to try to answer what I thought was a serious question from someone who had a serious interset and now find out he was only out to make fun of everyone..nope...doens't matter at all. not important.
I've watched you basicaly call anyone that disagreed with your statements that Aikido doesn't work in real life situations liars...suppose that shouldn't matter.

i'm not offended...just disgusted that I bothered at all.
It did worry me that you seemed to feel based on a TV show and youre limited experience with someone who isn't very experienced that you might go challenge an Aikido practiioner (Aikidoka in case you dont know) who DOES know what they're doing and get the ground wiped up with yourself...but I no longer care about that either.

[Edited by crystalwizard on December 12, 2000 at 02:24pm]

____________
Kelly Christiansen

A loving person lives in a loving world. A hostile person lives in a hostile world. Everyone you meet is your mirror
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Old 12-12-2000, 02:53 PM   #73
torokun
Dojo: Boulder Aikikai
Location: Denver, CO
Join Date: Dec 2000
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Circle Effectiveness...

I feel that I must amend my previous post with the things I left unsaid. I left them unsaid because I thought it had been shown clearly here in everyone's posts...

Aikido is very effective in certain situations, and it's very good at cultivating a calm state of mind and spirit that helps people greatly when they actually get in a real fight.

Although I've never been in a fight since I started practicing martial arts, I have had a lot of friends who do other things (TKD, etc), who have wanted to spar with me, or just mess around... I can tell you this -- I have never been very comfortable with it, because aikido techniques don't just leave bruises, they break bones. They rip tendons and ligaments and displace joints. They slam people to the ground, where they may land on their head or at least bounce it hard on the concrete...

A couple of times I've messed around with these guys, and I kept my distance, and avoided strikes, but as soon as I had a chance, I moved in like a tank and had them. At that point, I usually stopped, because if I applied a good technique, they would have resisted it and broken something... I'm sure that in many real confrontations, the same thing would happen (although I would be forced to follow through), and that means that aikido is effective. At least as effective as TKD, karate, or many other arts.

A lot of successes have been posted about here... I believe that reading this thread now should be enough to convince anyone that although there may be limitations or things lacking in aikido, it is effective in "real fights". Not always perfect, not always victorious, but quite effective.

--torokun
(Trevor)
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Old 12-12-2000, 03:10 PM   #74
Magma
Join Date: Aug 2000
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Re: What Aikido Lacks...

Torokun, I don't know where you practice your aikido or where you got the ideas you express above, but I must strongly disagree with you.
Quote:
torokun wrote:
1. There is no practice of complex attacks with vigor -- for example, one might attack with their weight over the back foot, left foot forward, grabbing uke's wrist with the right hand....These are common things that happen in chinese arts, but aikidoka never practice these things.
What I have quoted above points to a focus that you have put on the techniques you are learning, rather than the budo principles you are expressing. For instance, let's say I'm one of these sheltered aikidoka you are talking about who only ever see the most basic attacks: I only ever practice against a straight, traditional step and punch; and then in the street I face someone coming with a more modern street type attack (feet reversed from what I'm used to - left forward with right hand striking, hip turn, etc.) If I get off the line of attack, turn that energy, steal balance, lead, and finish centered and safe, have I done aikido? Sure, you can't nicely categorize it in terms of attack and responding technique ("leading cross-punch kokyunage"), but the aiki principles were there, and I WAS still doing aikido.

The bottom line on this one is if you don't see enough realism or variation in your attacks, make up your mind that you will train on these things, or ask about these things. But give up the attachment and dependence on "technique."
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2. Footwork. Footwork is taught for irimi and tenkan, but after the entrance, it's usually just whatever works. I know that usually footwork must be adjusted to fit the situation, but without a good _system_ for footwork, the average aikidoka can not take advantage of his full range of rotation.

There is more footwork-WORK done in aikido than in other arts that I have seen or trained in. From tae-sabaki to full technique walk throughs, the teaching is there. Again, I do not know where you train or who you watch in order to see techniques taught as "Do this tae-sabaki, get to this point, and then just do whatever works from here." Sensei that I have been fortunate to see teach techniques to completion, from start to finish. Aikido is an art that REQUIRES you to be centered at all times. There is simply no way to accomplish strong technique without being centered, and no way to stay centered without proper footwork.

The bottom line on this one is that I would suspect that you haven't been in aikido long enough to grasp the scope or genius of its footwork "system" as you call it. Regardless of your time spent training, I would recommend Ikeda Sensei's tape on Iriminage, as it breaks down footwork into manageable tools that can be put together in more complex arrangements later.

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3. Breathing. Aikido books talk a lot about hara and tanden, but that's about it. There are no specific exercises for developing proper breathing or internal power. Some might say that this can be done simply through practice, but I thoroughly disagree. There are great ways to develop these things, but they are not taught in aikido...


May I submit that the reason that you haven't found the instruction on breathing that you seek is specifically because you are looking in books? The learning is in the doing, not in the reading-about-someone-else-doing. At my dojo and others that I have visited, there is a strong emphasis put on breathing and the development thereof. From drills of sounding out abdomen-focusing syllables ("yee" and "toh"), to breath control drills much like Zen meditation with wood blocks, to the ukemi we perform during our warmup (focusing on breathing out); and these are just what comes to me off the top of my head.

Again, the bottom line for this one is it doesn't sound like you're getting the instruction that you need. ALL of aikido is breath training. What other art even talks about breathing beyond, "Remember to breath." Saying that aikido doesn't work on breathing is like sitting in the very first car that came with a radio and saying, "What are you talking about?! This car doesn't have a radio! I don't hear a thing!" Which is about the time your sensei leans over and turns the radio on for you.

Quote:

4. Body connection. The internal connection of the body through the fascia, etc. can begin to develop through aikido practice, but I don't believe that many of the teachers really understand what's going on internally in this regard, because aikido usually just doesn't teach it. I believe that most _high_ level aikidoka have some degree of internal connection going, but usually not a really thorough understanding of it.... On this same note, since strikes are not practiced separately, aikidoka cannot usually channel their power through their whole body very well, to produce a powerful strike. They don't know how to store energy in the spine, legs, or arms, and release it...


I guess what really gets me is that you say that "aikido doesn't teach this or that." Aikido doesn't teach; people do. Now, you started your post well enough by saying that a crappy teacher leads to crappy students (paraphrasing). A teacher that doesn't understand centeredness or connection with uke isn't a person you should be learning from, nor should you use that person as an example of the art. EVERY art is going to have good and bad teachers. I have seen and trained under/with sensei who have evident and manifest knowledge of these concepts and their physical expression.

And as for strikes being practiced separately... they are. I've been in classes of suburi where that is all we do with maybe one technique the whole night.

Bottom line: Aikido is what it is. Any particular person's aikido is going to be something short of that ideal and not be truly representative of the art as a whole. Now go back and read those two sentences and substitute your favorite scapegoat martial art for "aikido." ANY martial art at its pinnacle is the same as all others: a system for the refinement of character, a vehicle for self-improvement, and a method of self-defense.

It is ultimately up to the student to search out the best teacher for his/her path. This is as much a part of the path as the learning of technique. If you are truly not getting proper instruction, then find another dojo where you will.

Does aikido have weaknesses? Hmm, let me instead ask, "does my aikido have weaknesses?" I answer yes. And so, I train more.

-Tim

Tim
It's a sad irony: In U's satori, he forgot every technique he ever knew; since then, generations of doka have spent their whole careers trying to remember.
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Old 12-12-2000, 03:10 PM   #75
giriasis
Location: Ft. Lauderdale, Florida
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Stop playing games Joeysola. If you make a post stating that Aikido is not effective at all in a real fight, then the obvious responses from dedicated long term practitioners will of course be it is effective.

If you truely were interested in learning something, then you simply would have asked, "From your experiences with Aikido, what do you find as it's weaknesses?"

An honest question like that would have gotten you many good decent responses.

We don't bury our heads in the sand and neither should you. Maybe you should admit that Aikido IS EFFECTIVE in many situations.

later,
Anne Marie Giri

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