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Old 04-18-2006, 08:14 PM   #701
Man of Aiki
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Wow, that was some good MMA going on there. Thanks for posting that.

Sudo has that sudden jump thing where goes up and gets his legs around their neck down pretty good. Hard to get out of the triangle choke when he gets himself seated like that so suddenly and unexpectedly.
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Old 04-18-2006, 08:47 PM   #702
kaishaku
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Keith Lee wrote:
The only high percentage moves in reaction to low-level take downs are (in order): sprawls, whizzers, and kneeing someone in the face.
What's a whizzer? I didn't really find anything useful during a brief googling.

I think some Aikido practitioners imagine someone running at them, bent over, from across the room. In BJJ we are taught to never change level until we're already within reaching distance. If someone tried to irimi into me while I'm going for the legs, I'd just change to a single leg takedown instead....
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Old 04-18-2006, 09:20 PM   #703
kaishaku
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Oh, also, what's a switch? It's hard to search for wrestling techniques since they have names that mean other things....
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Old 04-18-2006, 10:56 PM   #704
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Good Comments Keith Lee. I couldn't agree more.

Anyway...Brian: What comes to my mind, (and it is hard to banter over this online for sure!), is that you are assuming that the guy attacking has not done several key things in his shoot and that is: moved off line and lined your feet up, and taking your center on the shoot.

A good shooter does these two things...he is very fast with his hips, set up correctly, faster than your ability to react with anything other than a sprawl which is why Chris Burke brings up his comments!

I think the three of us would caution you against saying "it works" if you are trying it out on someone that is not experienced at shooting double and single leg takedowns. Yea what you describe works perfectly on someone simply shooting without regard to all the other factors involved!

It really is not as simple as an afternoon discovery of aikido bunkai! I have been learning to do single and double leg takedowns for about a year now and I am now getting them! It is a very skilled thing to do correctly.

I love watching Royce Gracie shoot. I recommend getting some footage and go in slow motion and watch how he steps off line, goes high to take center, then moves through with his hips, securing a leg or both legs, then he steps off line circling (irimi/tenkan) as he off balances and executes the takedown!

Good luck in your training!
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Old 04-19-2006, 06:54 AM   #705
Man of Aiki
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I am not doubting the fact that BJJ and wrestling students are very competent at shooting in.

All your comments boil down to "Aikidoka really have no defense whatsoever against this" and "BJJ and Wrestling students are very good at shooting in."

I am not questioning your second premise, but your first one. Some Aikidoka have given the low shoot some serious thought and have put some training into countering it.

I myself have posted on this board as to why many traditional Aikido schools do not have much in their cirricula about countering low shoots, so I'm well aware of the problem.
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Old 04-19-2006, 09:25 AM   #706
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

And what would you do to prevent this Brian, what's your plan?
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Old 04-19-2006, 11:39 AM   #707
milhasan
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

This thread started about Aikido. If Aikido works at all in a Fight?? or correct choice of word could've been self defense? Not Aikido vs. Bjj.

Like I said in my previous post, Bjj trolling on every Martial arts forums. Whenever any effectiveness of a particular arts or style being discussed, there are always few Bjj practitioners will intervene & bash everything. To prove the superiority of the Bjj style. They will refuse to believe that it is not the art, it is the person. In this forum Aikido's effectiveness is a disguise to really eloquently talk about how Bjjer's can defeat Aikidoka.They are under assumption that we will be unarmed & facing a unarmed Bjjer in the street. Never heard or seen or read any street fights between Bjj & any other arts at least here in Orlando. This thread was to dissecting Aikido, not about Bjj.
I lurk in three other forums & member of one. In all of these, forum moderators having to shut down thread like this.
We have seen Bruce Lee craze, Ninja craze, now Bjj. Let's see what next. most likely a weapons based art?
There are disagreement between self defense experts about Martial art & self defense are being in two different arena. Every article or interview by these experts that I've came across agrees on one item. It is a very Bad idea to go on the ground & stay during a street confrontation, willingly/ voluntarily. No matter how graceful & beautiful Gracie's look in the ring( not with Sakuraba though), no way they are going to roll around on the ground in the street if they had a choice.
BTW, only art have been spared from bashing was Sayok Kali. I guess it's obviously a fatal mistake to try to grab a kali person unless one wants to be cut from rectum to the groin in a artistic manner.( A Kali girl did that for real to defend against a choke hold).

To the Bjjers..Fighting in the UFC & going to Bjj class 3 times a week is very different thing. A UFC fighter makes a living by competing. They practice 4 to 6 hrs daily if not more. I know how to drive a car & driving for years. If I decide to race with a family van against Jeff Gordon in a family van also. You know the result will be. In the same token, If Jeff Gordon have a private pilot license & occasionally flies, put him in a control of a heavy aircraft in the middle of the cloud he will have the similar result while I'll have a good laugh. UFC guys don't fight on the street. Even they are afraid of litigation.
My point is... It's not the same on the mat as on the street. Argue all you want, Aikido has proven. Bjj have not proven on the street yet. I am all for Cross training in ground fighting & being open to any other methods. While I respect your passion & zeal towards your Bjj art, I also suggest that you do the same for others. Again I am not practicing Aikido so I have to face someone waiting outside the dojo to fight me. For that I use my secret weapon called "a sharp mind".
The biggest opponent of Martial art training was always the Litigation. It is just the matter of time Bjj will be facing this same enemy just as other TMA(traditional martial arts). It is the sole reason for watered down TMA now. It's something to think about.
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Old 04-19-2006, 12:15 PM   #708
Bart Mason
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Mike Geery wrote:
And what would you do to prevent this Brian, what's your plan?
I don't know what Brian can do, but I can run and run fast. I also scream like a little girl

now if we could just bottle up all this testosterone, then combine it with the energy of my 8 year old, i'd make millions!!!!
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Old 04-19-2006, 12:33 PM   #709
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Mohammed,

I don't believe anyone is trolling here. I hope you don't think I am. I went back and reviewed my past several post to see if what I may be saying could even be construed that way. I don't think so. Also haven't really seen any indication that anyone else is either.

What I have seen is some people that are both qualfied in Aikido and "other arts" such as BJJ, MMA, greco-roman and the like counter with constructive input. It may not be what you want to hear as an aikidoka, but I think, respectfully that "we" also want our fellow aikidoka to "keep it real" and to "keep it in perspective".

No one has said that BJJ is superior. That is your own inference IMHO.

Yes the thread is about the effectiveness at aikido. Many try to project it as aikido can be effective in every type of situation...or applying aikido techniques to every situation as being the end all of everything. It is okay to counter that, or offer a different perspective based on experience.

Trolling is when you fish for emotions and make statements without constructive feedback and without qualifiying statements.

Is it a "very bad idea to go to the ground for any reason?" I don't know... I could demonstrate some scenarios where it is good to go to the ground. You can also argue that you may not have a choice. You even say "if they had a choice". so by that I assume you subscribe to the fact that it is indeed possible that you may not have a choice.

I am not here to argue the "go to the ground or not" issue. It is pointless. I think you and I both agree on that! Do you agree that you should have "ground skills" as a martial artist? or at least they have merit? Can we just leave it at that?

Most "real" BJJers, even the guys that train 3 days a week keenly understand the difference between UFC fighting and BJJ class. More so than non-BJJers to be honest. Why? because many of our senior instructors have been in the ring. I train with three professional NHB/UFC instructors...they make me look silly. and the guys they lost to in the UFC totally owned them! So yea...I am very aware of my limitations and where I stand in the food chain. It is a humbling experience to go through.

I honestly, honestly thought several years ago that aikido would do things for me that it really won't. It wasn't until I was involved in MMA and "real life" combatives training and situations in the Army that I said "woooahh, hang on a minute...why am I doing this?"

These are my experiences! MINE, MINE, MINE. Don't use them to say how I judge aikido, or project that aikido is effective or irrelevant. I repeat, these are MY experiences. I share them because it helps me, and maybe others....you can take them or leave them!

What it did for me is make me think about my life, martial arts, aikido, and why I am doing what I am doing. I have more respect for aikido as a DO art. I have a greater appreciation I believe on why we practice aikido. Why it is imperitive that we do aikido...and do it for the right reasons. I feel it is important to share my experiences in the hope that it may help others think. That is all.

BJJ is not proven on the streets? you'd have to better qualify what you mean by that.

It is proven on the streets from the perspective of the Gracies. Ever seen "Gracies in Action". How about Rorians $100,000 challenge? The U.S. Army proves it "on the street" every day in Iraq and Afganistan. Since about 2001, we do not hide the fact that BJJ is the basis of our program.

This is an old article, but one that I like to share with my Combatives classes on why we do what we do in combatives....that is ground fight. It should also offer proof that BJJ is proven on the streets.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...6/ai_113304592

"It's not the same on the mat as on the street." I agree it is not the same. This applies equally to aikido as it does to any martial art. In fact in my BJJ classes every single day I remind my class of this. Are you infering that aikido is MORE like the street?

I don't really have an any more affinity, passion or zeal for BJJ than I do for Aikido. I simply like to train, enjoy it, and love to share it with others. What I do have a passion and zeal for is "keeping it real" and trying to alway remind myself that there is always another way of doing things and not to get complacent, comfortable, or hide behind the rituals of practice etc.

a sharp mind is a good thing to have. Probably the most important. Hopefully as a part of that, it is also having an open mind!

Have you ever trained in BJJ or been to a well run established dojo? It was a suprise to find that they are among the most open mined, non-parochial, respectful people I have ever encountered. I wasted years of my life avoiding it because of what I precieved they were all about. I was wrong and I lost out!

Litigation. you are wrong about that. What are your perceptions of what goes on in a BJJ dojo? You think it is any more "at risk" than aikido? I think there are much greater risk in an aikido dojo..especially when it come to beginners! Beginners getting hurt is the biggest litigation risk you face! Many aikido dojos have these guys taking breakfalls, rolling, ukemi, and all that good stuff. BJJ starts out teaching them the guard and the mount. The guard done properly is essentially kokyu tanden ho! so you spend 2 hours doing nothing more harmful than kokyu tanden ho!

okay, guys...I applogize for taking the thread off course a little more. I won't say anymore about BJJ directly, and go back to responding appropriately about aikido and fighting.

I think what I can do to bring it back on track is say this:

All this above is to demonstrate simply that we really need to learn the lessons being taught in aikido which is the "WAY" or the "DO". No question that aikido techniques work in fights sometimes. However, it is also important to understand that we need to consider there is more ways to handle things than our limited perspective. It is also important to not form assumptions about people and their intentions or to project our own emotions or feelings into the equations.

When we seek to understand, we grow in knowledge of our opponent. In doing this we see other options and opportunities that may be available. We can then more skillfully develop or resolve a fight. This is aikido working in a fight!

Sorry for the long post!
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Old 04-19-2006, 12:44 PM   #710
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Way To Go Kevin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 04-19-2006, 01:15 PM   #711
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Hi Kevin, you are too nice. Thank you for keeping it polite. I am going to respond to your post. But in order to keep it short with facts , I am collecting various data. I was in the military also. I wanted to make sure that I don't compromise some operational details before I start to post the facts. Talk to you later
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Old 04-19-2006, 01:16 PM   #712
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

organized like a team, fight like a family

Okay, that wasn't necesary, but I couldn't resist!
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Old 04-19-2006, 01:44 PM   #713
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Nice post Kevin, thanks!
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Old 04-19-2006, 02:07 PM   #714
Raspado
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

hahahahhaha! Believe it or not--it's very true. Gracie Barra under Carlos Gracie Jr. is like that.
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Old 04-19-2006, 05:30 PM   #715
Man of Aiki
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Actually the screaming and running thing was my second option!

Seriously though, Kevin and others are right to point out that traditional Aikido as it is often taught in classical fashion does not have much in the way of countering low tackles. I made a rather long post a few days ago to reiterate why this is so.

To briefly recap - the battlefield killing arts that O-Sensei modified into Aikido (primarily Daito Ryu Aikijutsu) was based on two sets of circumstances - weapons retention if someone tried to take your sword, spear or staff from you, and empty-hand vs. weapons techniques in case a warrior was rendered weaponless and faced an armed foe.

It was discovered through years of trial and error (and, no doubt, considerable loss of life) that when the opponent is armed and you are not, the best option that gave you a shot at survival was one that entailed STANDING THERE AN LETTING HIM START HIS ATTACK.

Let him close the distance and actually begin what he expects to be a fatal strike, and then avoid/deflect the attack, move in, unbalance him, throw and/or pin him, and take his weapon.

That is the best shot an unarmed warrior has at surviving an attack by a foe coming at him with a knife, sword, or spear.

Let him initiate the action and make the opening by launching his strike, extending his weapon and in the process, his balance.

Now that we clearly see this, we can begin to understand why the people that formed Daito-Ryu Aikijutsu would not have had much interest in forming techniques that involved having the unarmed warrior close the distance and shoot low against a foe that has a weapon, such as a spear or a sword.

To do so on a Japanese battlefield would be tantamount to a suicidal attack. As the average Japanese samurai was trained in the use of the sword from the time he was a small boy, by the time he was an adult male he would have little difficulty cutting down an unarmed opponent charging him empty-handed.

This is why the entire founding aspect of the Aiki arts was based on letting the armed opponent close the distance and letting him strike first.

OK, so that wasn't a brief recap. Boo hoo!

Many high-level Aikidoka since the passing of O-Sensei have realized over time that defense against low attacks is the one area Aikido is seriously lacking in.

Some of them, like Gozo Shioda, before his death, had to formulate his own techniques to counter such attacks.

Other Aikido Senseis have done the same, and here's where we get into a controversy.

Some people think that if O-Sensei himself didn't teach a technique a certain way, if he can't be found on film doing a counter against a low tackle, then such a new technique can't really be called Aikido since Aikido stopped growing and changing when O-Sensei died.

Now that sounds crass but that explains exactly why when someone puts out a video showing, for instance, Aikido techniques used for gun disarms, there are traditionalists that say "That's not Aikido! At no time did O-Sensei ever take a gun away from someone or teach anyone how to!"

Same thing with the low shoot counters that some Aikido Senseis teach. People go "Show me where O-Sensei did that! You can't, can you? Then that's NOT Aikido!"

Aikido is not static and written in stone and it did not stop growing and developing when O-Sensei died.

When the MMA sport began gaining prominence, many Aikido Senseis gained an insight that their art needed to grow in the area of countering low attacks, and some have been diligently experimenting and applying Aikido principles in order develop techniques that will do that.

Seagal Sensei is one of those. I attended a Seminar by one of his chief sempai, Sensei Larry Reynosa, 5th Dan, in which the second day of a 2 day seminar almost an hour and a half was devoted to countering low attacks.

Now it's true that there are plenty of traditional Aikido schools out there (and some questionable schools as well) that have made no effort in this area at all. They are still doing what was done 40 years ago.

If that's how they want to teach the art, fine. There are plenty of places out there and I'm sure you fellows have seen this, where uke's will fall for people without being touched, and everyone is play-acting.

But if you've seen one of those, don't assume that's all there is or that all Aikido out there is like that. It isn't.

Brian
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Old 04-19-2006, 08:29 PM   #716
Man of Aiki
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

BTW, forgot to add one great quote from Reynosa Sensei when someone asked him during this seminar what if someone shoots in and you start to feel yourself losing your balance?

Sensei Reynosa said, Drop down so you land on your knees. Why do you think we do all that training from the kneeling position anyway? Just because it's fun?

And so we spent the next 30 minutes working on kneeling techniques.

He drilled into us there is absolutely nothing wrong with going to your knees in a fight since most Aikidoka should spend about half of their training down there anyway.
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Old 04-19-2006, 09:01 PM   #717
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Awesome post Kevin. Excellent summary of the situation that I think many Aikidoka who also crosstrain in grappling/MMA/full-contact, full-resistence sparring find themselves in when discussing Aikido. Kudos.

Keith Lee
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Old 04-20-2006, 10:03 AM   #718
CNYMike
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Mohammed Hasan wrote:
.... They are under assumption that we will be unarmed & facing a unarmed Bjjer in the street. Never heard or seen or read any street fights between Bjj & any other arts at least here in Orlando .....
My Kali instructor --- who's no stranger to grappling -- likes to say, "Grapplers make it sound like everyone and their uncle does BJJ, but I have yet to bump into someone at random on the street who can do it." It's actually a comment on how rare martial artists are in our culture, but it backs you up to.

Other than that, life will go on if this thread dies. [HINT]
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Old 04-20-2006, 10:29 AM   #719
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Hi, Kevin,

Nice post. Now if I can get my computer to behave this time, just a few points:

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
.... Many try to project it as aikido can be effective in every type of situation...or applying aikido techniques to every situation as being the end all of everything ..... I honestly, honestly thought several years ago that aikido would do things for me that it really won't. It wasn't until I was involved in MMA and "real life" combatives training and situations in the Army that I said "woooahh, hang on a minute...why am I doing this?"
There seem to be the two extremes of thought: The Aikido Handles Everything idea you outlined, and the opposite extreme, that it's great to do but useless in the real world. With you choices being A or not A, it doesn't clear things up much.

I figure reality is somewhere in the middle, but I don't know where yet. But it seems logical to me that Aikido has a space in the middle ground between those two ideas, just as Aikido techniques have a niche in the ranges of empty hadn combat. Trying to figure out where those niches are is another matter, something I keep in the back of my mind. But it's how I look at things.

Quote:
.... Have you ever trained in BJJ or been to a well run established dojo? It was a suprise to find that they are among the most open mined, non-parochial, respectful people I have ever encountered. I wasted years of my life avoiding it because of what I precieved they were all about. I was wrong and I lost out!
That's good to know. I haven't met many BJJ people personally, but my fellows in Kali, who also do Jun Fan/JKD, fit the same mold. I've written how my Kali instructor (who also holds and instructorship in Jun Fan and has permission to teach Pentjak Silat Serak) all but dragged me to my first Aikido class by my ankles when I told him I wanted to get back into it. One of my seniors, who's also a Jun Fan man and who's done martial arts about as long as I'm alive, not only thought it was great I'm doing Aikido but met Yamada Sensei back in the '60s. Aikido seems to be the art some of them would like to do but don't have the time for, but they never gave me an attitude over my doing TMA, and that goes back to when I went to Sifu Kevin Seaman's old school and used the open training time in the afternoon to practice karate kata! In a den of "kata haters," and the most I heard from Sifu Kevin was when he once said, "Mr. Gallaghre does his forms every day," holding me up as an example of the need to practice outside class!

It's because of their example that my blood boils when I read of a supposed JKD person giving an Aikidoist grief; not the one I know! But there are some real boors out there, and yeah, they are in the BJJ world and yeah, they mouth off everyhting else. If you've been around the 'net you know there are one or two instuctors who fit that bill. But good for you if you've avoided training under them.

Quote:
..... Litigation. you are wrong about that ....
I thought he was referring to the legal restrictions on the use of force when defending yourself, but I could be wrong about that.
Quote:
Sorry for the long post!
That's ok; I didn't really read it. (Boy, am I gonna get it!)
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Old 04-20-2006, 12:48 PM   #720
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Good comments Michael.

Brian wrote:

Quote:
It was discovered through years of trial and error (and, no doubt, considerable loss of life) that when the opponent is armed and you are not, the best option that gave you a shot at survival was one that entailed STANDING THERE AN LETTING HIM START HIS ATTACK.
Brian, just want to clarify what you mean by "standing there". if you mean it literally, I would disagree. I have no way of knowing what the Japanese fedual dudes actually did, but just standing there defys what I read in Five Rings and the Art of War (even though that is Chinese!). Also all the sword, and jo kata I studied also is contray to this.

I think you might be thinking 'regroup" and establish a kamae and defense. That might not be a bad idea. But, on the battlefield it is typically better to press forward, to take up space and to seize the iniative.

We teach this all day long in CQB training. You always move forward into the battle, never give your enemy space to manuever and choose his attack.

I also think we do this in aikido. A good kamae is not simply standing there. You are employing Ma'ai, timing and distance...controlling the space and forcing uke to adapt and commit to somethng that is of disadvantage to him.

It is probably semantics, but "standing there" suggest that you are not seizing control of the situation to me.

If I were to get knocked off my horse and faced an opponent empty handed i'd move fast toward him, closing the distance forcing him backward to regroup...take away his time and ability to control distance then choose my attack.

When you go to aikido class talk to your instructors about this concept and see what they have to say. Pay attention to what you are actually doing when uke attacks. Watch what a good instructor does. If he is doing it right, he is not simply standing, but actively engaged at controlling the distance, anticipating and moving before the attack!

If it is semantics, just clarify for me. If not, I'd ask you to look closer to see if you still see the same thing.
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Old 04-20-2006, 01:02 PM   #721
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Brian wrote:

Quote:
When the MMA sport began gaining prominence, many Aikido Senseis gained an insight that their art needed to grow in the area of countering low attacks, and some have been diligently experimenting and applying Aikido principles in order develop techniques that will do that.
some might have done this. I'd say most did not. Traditional aikido typcially would not be concerned so much with this because the techniques and methodology employed for the last 40 years does a good job of conveying the principles.

Those that would focus on the practical applications or "tactical aikido" would most certainly explore these things and adopt them. It is a personal opinion, but based on my background on aikido i'd say this is more MMA than aikido though.

Those guys like Reynosa Sensei, and Segal sensei probably use low shoots, ground work more as a way to break paradigms, demonstrate the breadth of how aikii principles can be applied, and to offer a different perspective than anything else.

All this brings up a very good point. there are two sides to martial arts I think. I hate to use the word internal and external because that is not really it. the DO and the SU. The DO is concerned with the "something ele" and SU is concerned with practical applications. It is important for students to understand these two concepts and to understand what is being conveyed in their training by the art and the instructor.

It can get confusing mixing the two sometimes especially when studying a heavy DO based art like aikido. Cognitive dissonance occurs and we project all kinds of things on the art that WE want it to be or start believing that what we are practing literally has practical application! When things get dangerous is when we really start to believe that we are something that we are not!

Why you see the conflict between BJJ and Aikido is that they are opposite approaches almost to the same system of study! DO and SU. It is exactly why they compliment each other to!

BJJ guys fail to understand the DO arts, and aikido guys fail to understand the SU arts! It really is as simple as that!
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Old 04-21-2006, 03:08 PM   #722
milhasan
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I am back from my trip.
Kevin, Did you see your name in my post? This thread started in year 2000 as a troll thread. did you post that ? I don't think so. It appears to me that my post hit a nerve.
you wrote
It may not be what you want to hear as an aikidoka, but I think, respectfully that "we" also want our fellow aikidoka to "keep it real" and to "keep it in perspective". Since you used the word respectfully, I will ask you this also respectfully, what makes you think That we aikidoka not keeping it real? I only visited few Aikido dojos. All of this dojos are doing very best to keep it real. We are discussing only Aikido here, so, I am not even going to mention that what other TMA dojos doing to bring the training scenario as real as can be.
No one has said that BJJ is superior. That is your own inference IMHO.
Really? Why Then a Aikidoka post his success or failure, you tend to steer the topic towards Bjj? Example : David skaggs posted, I used Aikido once when a guy tried to put me in a headlock and punch me in the face. It worked for me, I'm convinced. Your response to this post is, [I]how do you know it wasn't BJJ?[/i]
Yes the thread is about the effectiveness at aikido.
Many try to project it as aikido can be effective in every type of situation...or applying aikido techniques to every situation as being the end all of everything. It is okay to counter that, or offer a different perspective based on experience.
Trolling is when you fish for emotions and make statements without constructive feedback and without qualifiying statements.

I agree with you on this.
Is it a "very bad idea to go to the ground for any reason?" I don't know... I could demonstrate some scenarios where it is good to go to the ground. You can also argue that you may not have a choice. You even say "if they had a choice". so by that I assume you subscribe to the fact that it is indeed possible that you may not have a choice
If you read my post one more time, you will see what you missed is that is not my personal opinion. It is the most common opinion most of the self defense experts shares.
I am not here to argue the "go to the ground or not" issue. It is pointless. I think you and I both agree on that! Do you agree that you should have "ground skills" as a martial artist? or at least they have merit? Can we just leave it at that?
100% agreed.
I honestly, honestly thought several years ago that aikido would do things for me that it really won't. It wasn't until I was involved in MMA and "real life" combatives training and situations in the Army that I said "woooahh, hang on a minute...why am I doing this?"
Good for you.
These are my experiences! MINE, MINE, MINE. Don't use them to say how I judge aikido, or project that aikido is effective or irrelevant. I repeat, these are MY experiences. I share them because it helps me, and maybe others....you can take them or leave them!
That's right it's only YOURS, YOURS, YOURS. No I'm not taking them. It's not going to help me here in suburbs.
Why it is imperitive that we do aikido...and do it for the right reasons. I feel it is important to share my experiences in the hope that it may help others think. That is all.
It's great that you are sharing your experiences. But why are you assuming all other's need your help to think for themselves? Each one us is different. We have different expectations, different goal.

BJJ is not proven on the streets? you'd have to better qualify what you mean by that.
It is proven on the streets from the perspective of the Gracies. Ever seen "Gracies in Action". How about Rorians $100,000 challenge? The U.S. Army proves it "on the street" every day in Iraq and Afganistan. Since about 2001, we do not hide the fact that BJJ is the basis of our program.

Let me rephrase that, Bjj have not proven on the street yet? I missed the "Yet" earlier. Fact is the age of Bjj. Unless few after school fights or parking lot of a movie theater in the weekends by the students. Yes I have seen Gracie's. More then once. What was the street prespective? Kimo lost by an armbar in the ring. Are you honestly thinking if the same match took place in the street without any rules, the result would be the same? Now I am not even going to talk about Kazushi Sakuraba in the ring with Gracie's. That's another thread itself.
As you mentioned the streets of Iraq & Afghanistan, both of this places are battlegrounds. Not the streets are being discussed here. My two In-laws were in Iraq. By asking them about Bjj on the street of Iraq all I got was a good laugh from one & Abu Garib joke from another. unless M-16, arresting, escorting prisoners are all part of the Bjj. The U.S. Army proves it "on the street" every day in Iraq. Are you sure? Hear is a link for the only hand to hand combat ever recorded in Iraq which involves knife( Kali guys & girls, must read).
http://www.washtimes.com/world/20040...5511-7092r.htm
I am still waiting for a response from a friend somewhere in Afganistan or Pakistan about Bjj is being used daily.

What I do have a passion and zeal for is "keeping it real" and trying to alway remind myself that there is always another way of doing things and not to get complacent, comfortable, or hide behind the rituals of practice etc.
a sharp mind is a good thing to have. Probably the most important. Hopefully as a part of that, it is also having an open mind!
Have you ever trained in BJJ or been to a well run established dojo? It was a suprise to find that they are among the most open mined, non-parochial, respectful people I have ever encountered. I wasted years of my life avoiding it because of what I precieved they were all about. I was wrong and I lost out!

So Aikido student's don't remind themselves these obvious facts daily? What you think is the Aikido's greatest gift that only mentioned by very few? That's the gift is the most important reason for the students of all walks of life, including high ranking TMA instructor's, Corporate security, doorman, Leo's, Corporate executives, physicians, Reformed street fighter, airline pilot, school teachers, musician, housewives, gardeners, pizza delivery guys/gals, artist joins Aikido dojo or clubs.
That is "Situational Awareness with utter clarity of mind". I am sure you are well versed in that area.
Now this is how close minded I am, I am putting my 8 yrs. old in a Bjj club starting this summer. Gjj is $30 to $40 more per month. My intention to keep my child there at least five years. Then to Daito Ryu or Aikido for the life if we're lucky. Also, I was a Kyokushin & later Tang-soo-do practitioner, until I saw a friend from U.K did some aikido stuff in the street of Karachi, Pakistan. After some friendly sparring & discussion with him, I have become a supporter of Aikido. Now, have you ever trained in a well established Aikido dojo lately? They are open minded also.
Litigation. you are wrong about that. What are your perceptions of
No I am not wrong on this. You are. Wait until you try to open your own dojo here in U.S. You will have a rude awakening. Not just training injury I am talking about. You'll most likely have to sell students dojo insurance now to be protected. even then rate of claims can be detrimental to your ability to be insured in future. if one of your student was protecting himself outside of the dojo, other party can file a suit against your dojo to be compensated for a lot. Your students waiver will not hold up in the court . In the end even if you win, you still have to take time out to go to the court house, find a parking, wait for your attorney to be fashionably late, then to be told hearing postponed & will be rescheduled. You would wish then pull your toe nail out with pliers then go through this process.
[I]All this above is to demonstrate simply that we really need to learn the lessons being taught in aikido which is the "WAY" or the "DO". No question that aikido techniques work in fights sometimes.
Aikido works not only sometimes, it works a lot of times. I can fill 25 pages full of reports by the bouncers to Leo's, students & others.

However, it is also important to understand that we need to consider there is more ways to handle things than our limited perspective. It is also important to not form assumptions about people and their intentions or to project our own emotions or feelings into the equations.
Self explanatory.
When we seek to understand, we grow in knowledge of our opponent. In doing this we see other options and opportunities that may be available. We can then more skillfully develop or resolve a fight. This is aikido working in a fight!
Finally we all can agree on something.
To all the Aikidoka... We all know why we keep going back to our dojos. Let's not beat the dead horse anymore about Aikido vs. other arts. That's not this thread all about to begin with. A lot of reality based training only brings close to a false sense of security.
The fashion of the street now is carrying a GLOCK 19. At least here.
Respectfully bowing out...
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Old 04-21-2006, 08:30 PM   #723
Man of Aiki
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Kevin;

Good post, I would like to clarify, as you suggested.

There are many ways a warrior could lose his primary weapon. It could, for instance, get stuck inside an opponent. It could be broken.

If there is time, I am sure the warrior would look about for another weapon.

In the instance where Aikijutsu was used, however, it was assumed the enemy was too close to retreat and there was not time to seek another weapon to fight with.

If by 'close the distance' you mean moving towards him and looking like you are inviting him to strike you down, I agree with what you are saying.

This statement, however, troubles me:

"If I were to get knocked off my horse and faced an opponent empty handed i'd move fast toward him, closing the distance forcing him backward to regroup...take away his time and ability to control distance then choose my attack."

There is absolutely no reason I can think of why an adult Japanese samurai, trained in the use of sword and spear since a young age, would be 'forc(ed) backward to regroup' by an empty-handed warrior charging towards him.

Effective distance for an attack on an armed warrior is around 4 1/2 to 5 feet (sword) and 6 1/2 to 7 feet (spear) and closer. If you start your charge from more than 5 or 6 feet away, he's got plenty of time to see you coming and kill you. And I'm being generous there.

Now if you run towards him and then, with your superior grasp of timing and distance, stop suddenly just outside the effective range of his weapon, be it sword or spear, he might instinctively be goaded into the sort of strike that Aikijutsu depended upon.

Unfortunatley, I cannot agree with you that rushing emptyhanded towards an armed opponent and trying to force him to back up is a good idea. If he was highly trained in the use of that weapon I see no reason whatsoever why he should back up.

He would want you to enter the effective range of his weapon. How will you do that if he backs up? His whole intent is to kill you. He needs you to enter his weapon's range to accomplish his goal.

If you stay outside of it, he has to try to put you into that range himself.

Volunteering to charge into weapon range in an attempt to disorient him or force him to retreat would be to believe you have control over how he will react.

Since that doesn't make any sense, I will assume you mean you will move to him and adopt an aggresive demeanor while staying just outside his weapon's effective range and then launch your attack when you see an opening.

As I stated in the post above, through much trial an error it was determined that the man with the weapon is best defeated by an unarmed opponent when the unarmed warrior appears to be 'open' to a strike and the armed warrior commits and engages and is then taken out.

I am not aware of a single Budo art where the unarmed guy goes first, enters the effective range of the weapon, and takes the sword/spear bearer out.

Going in first empty-handed against a sword or spear carrying warrior the only way you would survive is if you got very, very lucky.

Brian

Last edited by Man of Aiki : 04-21-2006 at 08:32 PM.
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Old 04-21-2006, 11:50 PM   #724
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Mohammed,

Thanks for taking the time to thoughtfully respond. I'd love to respond, I don't have time right this minute, and If I do it here, knowing from years of experience at dealing with Jun on these threads, he is about to give us a warning to "stay on topic".

So I will respond to what I think is pertinent to the thread, does not mean that I am ignoring your post in anyway.

The comment I made about "how do you know it wasn't BJJ?" was done to illicit thought to the statement "I know aikido works because I used this technique". My point is simply this: Does aikido own the technique, why limit yourself, your thought, and confine things to such a small area? Many arts have the exact same technique. It is a matter of your conditioning, experiences, and paradigm that you would say this.

If you shot and killed some one with a gun most people would not say.

I shot and killed a man with the "Smith shooting school methodology" you'd say I shot a man with a .357 at point black range in the chest and he died immediately so I know how to use a gun. Does that make sense?

so if you used ikkyo to take a guy down you used ikkyo. You may have used your weight, brain and lots of other faculties too!

I understand that I am getting very picky about some miniscule words. However, I think when we tend to use words we can also affect our thoughts and perceptions about what it is that is really going on.

I guess that is what I mean when I say "keeping it real". that is, looking deeper into your paradigms and really see what is going on!

As far as my aikido training lately. Not sure what is meant by lately, but I do manage a few times a year to get to seminars and back to my dojo. So to me, yes, I am familiar with how open minded and level headed people are in aikido....at least in my dojo for the most part. However, because of the way we study aikido it is possible for there to exist the "aikibunny" mentality. However, I don't really care, and those guys are welcome to...there is room for all!

I also agree with you on Reality based training. It is probably more dangerous in setting you up for failure. Why, because you go in, practice a few techniques for a limited set of scenarios lyou develop confidence within those narrow parameters, then you come out, the parameters change in reality, and you don't have a good base to adapt what you learn.

This is one of the resaons the Army stopped teaching the "old way" of step by step and adopted a BJJ model as the basis.

techniques commonly learned in aikido do work very good in bar situations. Another topic, but bouncing can be much different than getting mugged or violently attacked. Same with police work. adapting techniques learned from aikido is very useful in these civil enforcement scenarios.

Thanks for your patience Jun! I think there is some good discussion going on around the topic we beat to death over the last 5 years!
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Old 04-22-2006, 11:38 AM   #725
Man of Aiki
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

As an example of what I have been explaining, about how highly advanced Aikidoka have been adding and adjusting techniques using aiki principles since O-Sensei died, in order to counter high kicks and low shoots, I would like to provide a link to the following video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0VcOtneCRU

Aikido 7th Dan Steven Seagal is teaching both in Japan and America in formal dojos and in gymnasiums during seminars.

Note the number of times you see a kick defense, and a low shoot defense.

Also, it must be pointed out that I have seen many of the techniques here carried out full speed. Most of them are done at these seminars quite slowly and carefully, as all techniques are when Sensei Seagal is working with someone who can't take the technique full force.

He often slows down to clearly allow the people watching to see what he is doing.

So yes, I expect comments like "Wow, look how slowly that uke shot in' and 'Wow, look how long it took Seagal to do that technique.'

You've all seen video where he's doing the techniques so fast you can't really tell what he's doing unless you slow it down. He's going very, very slow in these clips. incredibly slow. like mollasses going down the side of a tree.

Just so you know.
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