Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 04-16-2006, 04:52 AM   #676
schultzfactor
Dojo: Rotorua
Location: Rotorua
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 4
New Zealand
Offline
Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Aikido is a means NOT to fight. I boxed for 12 years, learned how to fight and also how to be an idiot. When I became a bit older and more educated, I started practicing Aikido and learned how NOT to fight. If victory, is something one craves, assertion if you could call it that, succuss maybe , do something else. If you want to get your "Black Belt" , I'll post you one and let you get on with conquering all the arts. I somehow believe that once you've done it all, are older and wiser, and would like to establish some meaning in the practice of arts, you might return with a more mature vision of what you'd like from yourself.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2006, 05:32 AM   #677
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Not sure exactly who is bashing aikido in this thread in last several months. Essentially I see it as an fairly intelligent coversation dissecting aikido...what it is...and what it isn't.

Mohammed, many of your comments and insights are correct. I agree aikido techniques work pretty darn well for law enforcement and civil arrest techiques. I have not been to too many schools that cater to LE community, but I bet you will find that they concentrate on those things that work well, another words they adapt aikido techniques and principles for their needs. Many schools also teach some very basic grappling and BJJ is every bit involved in LE as is aikido and many other MAs. Point is, there is room for many of the techniques. LE and the military adapt what works best for them....they don't teach TMA or waste precious time on learning TMA...it is the jitsu not the DO that is important to them.

Brian, many of your points are good and well documented by history and here on aikiweb as well. I believe however that you must be careful not to over romanticize the battlefield of yore. Certainly aikijitsu and dyaito ryu had at the heart of it's core the very essence of what you talk about, but I'd bet they spent sometime in the clinch as well. Again, they adapted their system for what was best for them in battle.

Now, for Kano and Ueshiba, they adopted the jitsu arts for philosophical reasons and made them into a DO art. The reasons for doing them completely changed what was important.

The reason we don't practice shooting, clinching, and grappling in aikido probably has more to do with the fact that those things did not communicate the message, concepts, and principles of the founder than they had to do with not being relevant or martially effective.

The USMC did not adapt BJJ as the base for their art. In fact in is more based on LINES training. Plus believe it or not, it was very heavily influenced by Dr. Richard Strozzi-Heckler, a very accomplished Aikido Sensei!

The U.S. Army bases their system on BJJ and we spend about 70% of our time working on the basics of this, but it is not the complete part of the system. There are many reasons for doing our methodology this way. 1. you gain useful skills quickly. 2. Less room for injury. 3. Builds the warrior spirity. 4. sustainable with little or no equipment...the list goes on.

Doesn't really matter why the army picked it....the point is they did it because they felt it worked best for them. THis fact does nothing to invalidate aikido as an art or way..just not what was best for the Army.

A big paradigm shift has been happening in the last 10 years or so in the MMA community. I believe it has alot to do with the fact that TMAs and fighitng has matured in the west alot. We have a huge book of knowledge now to draw on that simply did not exsit 50 years ago. Certainly the Gracies and UFC were the catalyst for that shift. However...that is a different topic all together!

The big thing is I think to really understand why you are studying martial arts and aikido and make sure that those reasons properly align with the goals that you have. It may be that aikido serves those goals...it may not.

It is the fighter, the opponent, and the situation that makes the fight...not the art that you studied or identify with!
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2006, 07:03 AM   #678
Michael Douglas
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 402
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Brian Cates stated ;
" Well Aikido was formed for use on the battlefield where weapons are present."

But that is absolutely untrue.
What made you think that Brian?
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2006, 01:14 PM   #679
CNYMike
Dojo: Finger Lakes Aikido
Location: Cortland, NY
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 976
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Mohammed Hasan wrote:
.....After a brief conversation with A Bjj instructor this is what I learned. Most of this Bjj trolls are those,so called, 3 month & quit experts. Usually they can be seen in local judo/jujutsu tournament as a loud spectator wearing TAP OUT t-shirt. Also starting fights in the parking lot after the tournament. Real dedicated Bjj practitioners are not bashing other arts in the net .....
That's good to know. Thank you for posting that bit of information.

From now on I will try to avoid feeding the trolls.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2006, 01:30 PM   #680
CNYMike
Dojo: Finger Lakes Aikido
Location: Cortland, NY
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 976
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
..... The reason we don't practice shooting, clinching, and grappling in aikido probably has more to do with the fact that those things did not communicate the message, concepts, and principles of the founder than they had to do with not being relevant or martially effective ....
Yes, I think there was something in another thread is that O Sensei dropped ground grappling because he didn't like it. Kickboxing technqies also seem to be avsent from Daito-Ryu from the looks of my copy of Hidden Roots of Aikido. To make matters more complicated, there's nothing really new in Aikido techniques -- not the joint locks, not in the footwork and evasive patterns, nothing. So if Aikido can "work" in those situations is something you kind of have to figure out for yourself, and that assumes you can distinguish something influenced by Aikido. What do you look for? I've been keeping an eye on my practice sparring to see if anything "pops" out, but with everything I do involving close range techniques and grappling of one sort or another, how would I know Aikido if I did it?

Just a few thoughts that make me crazy at night.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2006, 02:24 PM   #681
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

good stuff Michael. I think you stop worrying about if you are working within the confines of aikido and simply worry if what you are doing is simply effective to reaching your desired endstate or scenario.

What I do is conceptualize a particular scenario, then figure out a strategy for defeating that scenario, it may be something I learned in class, something I heard on the internet, or something I saw in a book.....then I go into the dojo and work on it with several people to see if it will work. I have one guy in particular that is a pain in the butt. If it works on him, then it will pretty much work on anyone. This same guy is not very cooperative and has a real hard time with aikido concepts! (thats another issue and why he doesn't improve in other areas of his training!)

All that said, scenario based training is good to do, however, it really does not fit well into many traditional aikido dojos from my experiences and can really defeat the dynamic you are trying to create in an aikido dojo to teach people aikido principles. That is why you probably don't see much of the grappling going on. it would be disruptive and not serve much function...in fact it would probably be counterproductive to a degree in many situations.

Do aikido principles apply to grappling and fully resistive opponents? Oh you bet they do! Ask Jason Delucia and his dojo. Watch or roll with some of some really good BJJ guys. Omaplata became much easier for me once I realized that it was basically ikkyo with your leg around uke's arm!

as always, i reiterate...make sure you really understand why you are studying what you are studying, question it, and figure out what methodologies accomplish those goals.

I find aikido to be a very, very good practice in refining many of my martial skills. I wish I had much more time to spend on it than I do right now! However, based on what my goals are, aikido does not fill all my needs. again, it has nothing to do with if it works in a fight or not!
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2006, 06:17 PM   #682
dan guthrie
Dojo: Aikido of SLO
Location: Morro Bay
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 139
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I emailed Mr. Ayoob a few hours ago and I got this reply:

"Aikido is great for threat management and self-defense.

1. Expressly geared to work for small people against large people.
2. Impact is dependent on too many variables; the leverage that is the core of Aikido is an immutable law.
3. A punch in the mouth looks vicious to the witnesses, and can easily cause $25,000 costs in maxillo-facial reconstruction before you get into "pain and suffering." An Aikido thumb-lock leaves no artifact unless you have to break the thumb, and it looks to the witnesses as if you're helping the poor drunk to get to the door without falling down.
4. A little research will show how heavily modern handgun retention training, disarming training, and police defensive tactics (unarmed control and arrest techniques) rely on core Aiki principles.

You damn betcha I believe in Aikido. No one art is everything, but Aikido contributes a disproportionately large share of what works in most real-world situations.

best,
Mas
massadayoob@aol.com"



I hope this doesn't open another dimension of argument here, I was just impressed he answered so quickly.


So, now it's finally settled: Aikido does work in a fight. Phew!!

  Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2006, 07:45 PM   #683
Man of Aiki
Dojo: Aikido By The Bay
Location: Portland Texas
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 45
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Michael, you are right. I misspoke in that post.

What I meant to say was the Daito-Ryu Aikijutsu, the Kenjutsu sword arts and the Staff arts which O-Sensei learned and then transformed into Aikido were all developed for use on the battlefield by the samurai.

I did not mean to imply that AIKIDO itself was formed for use on the ancient battlefield.

Thank you for pointing out my mis-speaking on that subject.

The arts from which Aikido was derived were battlefield arts, but Aikido is not itself a battlefield art.

I have gone back and edited that point to bring out what I was saying more clearly and correct the misuse of the word "Aikido" instead of saying 'the arts from which Aikido was derived'.

Last edited by Man of Aiki : 04-16-2006 at 07:49 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2006, 07:55 PM   #684
Man of Aiki
Dojo: Aikido By The Bay
Location: Portland Texas
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 45
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Here is the edited and corrected post:

I first visited this forum over 3 years ago shortly after this thread first started.

It was begun by a guy who had seen two of the early UFC/MMA events where guys who called themselves 'Aikidoists' were easily dispatched by juijitsu stylists. From this, he adduced that Aikido would not work in a 'real fight'.

having seen one of the matches he was referring to, it was obvious to me that a sport begun by grapplers, on a very soft grappling surface, and with rules favoring grapplers is mostly won by.....grapplers.

It's also true that far too many Aikido schools spend all their time teaching students how to deal with traditional attacks; shomenuchi, yokomenuchi, maybe a front kick, etc.

Very few Aikido schools of the traditional sort I have seen teach students how to avoid an opponent ducking and shooting in below waist level and grabbing you around the knees, taking you down and then climbing on top of you and pounding your face into a pizza.

Which is precisely how the supposed Aikidoka in the video I saw got taken out.

Now, why is that?

Well arts that Aikido was derived from, such as Daito-Ryu Aikijutsu, was formed for use on the battlefield where weapons are present. Not too many schools of thought on warfare believe it's a good idea to try to take an enemy down to the ground and then sit on top of him when combat is going on all around you.

Many Aikido techs come from either taking on an opponent armed with a sword or a staff or knife or where the proponent had the sword or staff.

Judo/Jujitsu the way these MMA guys are practicing it depends on shooting in on an UNARMED opponent.

Yeah it's 1643 and I'm involved in a big battle on the Japanese mainland. There's a warrior on the other side over there who's been training to use that sword he's carrying since he was 5 years old. I've lost my own weapon, so now I'm gonna RUN OVER THERE AND GO LOW AND TACKLE THE GUY AROUND THE KNEES AND TAKE HIM DOWN.

Uh-huh. Suuuuuuuuure I am.

If you ended up taking an armored, weapon carrying warrior on the battle-field with your bare hands you had a far better chance of surviving if you knew aikijutsu. Trying BJJ in that situation would just get you killed.

O-Sensei developed Aikido from Daito-Ryu Aikijutsu, Kenjutsu, and Spear/Staff arts which, lest we forget, were samurai BATTLEFIELD ARTS. It was formulated from weapons techniques primarly to allow a warrior to survive an encounter with an ARMED OPPONENT.

This is why the one key thing missing from most Aikido instruction is low shoots or tackles below the waist, because on the battlefield anybody who charged an armed opponent like that died very suddenly.

Some schools have recognized this, and used Aikido principles to formulate defenses against low takedowns and below the waist tackles.

Others still content themselves with teaching students only how to avoid standup attacks, the basic strikes, mostly punches and grabs and maybe a basic front kick or two mixed in.

BJJ and other MMA centric arts were formulated on the presupposition of two UNARMED people facing each other in an equal contest. The traditional battlefield arts of Japan and China were NOT formulated on similar foundations. It was assumed always that at least ONE of the parties was armed.

Since Aikido is derived from these killing arts used on battlefields, and since very few of those ancient warriors were interested in trying shoot in and tackle armed opponents with their bare hands, it makes sense to me that this under-emphasis of dealing with that sort of attack has carried over to modern Aikido.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2006, 02:21 AM   #685
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Dan,

No problem with your facts for the most part. However, I would not say the aikido contributes "Aikido contributes a disproportionately large share of what works in most real-world situations".

That would depend on your perspective and the situation.

I'd say yes, if you have the luxury of time/distance and or knowledge or a certain degree of control of the situation.

I'd could argue that in other situations that the techniques dervied from the asssumptions and methodology of training by aikido are completely useless and irrelevant!

so, the right answer to the question asked is this...."it depends".

I don't think you can empricially say that "Aikido contributes a disproportionately large share of what works in most real-world situations'.

So does aikido work in a fight..."it depends".
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2006, 02:42 AM   #686
xuzen
 
xuzen's Avatar
Dojo: None at the moment - on hiatus
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 965
Malaysia
Offline
Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
So does aikido work in a fight..."it depends".
OMG... Kevin, you sounded just like my sensei, when I asked him about this long time ago when I was still a kyu grade.

p/s Post count # 686, 314 more to go.... Keep em' coming boys and girls. This shall be aikiweb's first thread to reach the 1,000 post count mark! A round of applause to all who makes this possible.

Last edited by xuzen : 04-17-2006 at 02:45 AM.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2006, 10:19 AM   #687
CNYMike
Dojo: Finger Lakes Aikido
Location: Cortland, NY
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 976
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
..... What I do is conceptualize a particular scenario, then figure out a strategy for defeating that scenario, it may be something I learned in class, something I heard on the internet, or something I saw in a book.....then I go into the dojo and work on it with several people to see if it will work. I have one guy in particular that is a pain in the butt. If it works on him, then it will pretty much work on anyone. This same guy is not very cooperative and has a real hard time with aikido concepts! (thats another issue and why he doesn't improve in other areas of his training!)

All that said, scenario based training is good to do, however, it really does not fit well into many traditional aikido dojos from my experiences and can really defeat the dynamic you are trying to create in an aikido dojo to teach people aikido principles. That is why you probably don't see much of the grappling going on. it would be disruptive and not serve much function...in fact it would probably be counterproductive to a degree in many situations.
Probably, but as I believe I tried to say in the Kali v. Aikido thread, that doesn't bother me! Yes, my Aikido dojo does it "straight," but my purpose in going is to find out what they teach, not what I learn elsewhere. Also, I confess I just plain like doing Aikido as is; it feels good inside. If I could change anything, I wouldn't. I know some don't agree with that, but that' how I feel.

Having said that, scenario based training can be a pain if youo think about it. For example, let's say you are working on the response to a jab-cross. First, IMHO, you have to correctly understand the techniques involved. So either you have to know the boxing/kickboxing system or someone you train with has to. If you work from an incorrect understanding or misconception about the technique, whatever flows from that will, by definition, not work, and therefore be doomed to failure. This was driven home to me when I read a post that said kaiten nage/osae wouldn't work against a shoot. That would have been my first guess, too; if it doesn't work, then maybe there's an assumption that's flawed.

Second, to be in keeping with the structure of Aikido, you can't just have one counter to the technique but every counter! You name it -- irimi nage, shiho nage, kote gaeshi, ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo --- the whole ball of wax. That's the way it's set up, isn't? Some may work easier than others; shiho-nage against a doble-lef takedown, anybody? ('Course, now that I think about it, I wonder if you couldn't drop to one knee and do it sort of as a hanmi hantachi, putting yourself at or below the shooter's level .... oh, no .... ) But I think to properly study that, that's what you have to do. At least I think so.

This strikes me as a heck of a lot of work, and I am just too lazy to even think about it. If someone else wants to do all that, great! Me, I'll just keep dancing with the elves.

Quote:

.... I find aikido to be a very, very good practice in refining many of my martial skills. I wish I had much more time to spend on it than I do right now! However, based on what my goals are, aikido does not fill all my needs. again, it has nothing to do with if it works in a fight or not!
Congratulations on being organized! Me, I just sort of ended up here, doing what I want to do and training with whom I want to train with. Organized? Who, me? Never stand up in court. One look at my house will prove that!

Happy training!
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2006, 10:24 AM   #688
CNYMike
Dojo: Finger Lakes Aikido
Location: Cortland, NY
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 976
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote:
p/s Post count # 686, 314 more to go.... Keep em' coming boys and girls. This shall be aikiweb's first thread to reach the 1,000 post count mark! A round of applause to all who makes this possible.
I worry about you sometimes, Xu, I really do.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2006, 10:29 AM   #689
milhasan
Location: Orlando, Florida
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 20
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Dan Guthrie wrote:
I emailed Mr. Ayoob a few hours ago and I got this reply:

"Aikido is great for threat management and self-defense.

1. Expressly geared to work for small people against large people.
2. Impact is dependent on too many variables; the leverage that is the core of Aikido is an immutable law.
3. A punch in the mouth looks vicious to the witnesses, and can easily cause $25,000 costs in maxillo-facial reconstruction before you get into "pain and suffering." An Aikido thumb-lock leaves no artifact unless you have to break the thumb, and it looks to the witnesses as if you're helping the poor drunk to get to the door without falling down.
4. A little research will show how heavily modern handgun retention training, disarming training, and police defensive tactics (unarmed control and arrest techniques) rely on core Aiki principles.

You damn betcha I believe in Aikido. No one art is everything, but Aikido contributes a disproportionately large share of what works in most real-world situations.

best,
Mas
massadayoob@aol.com"



I hope this doesn't open another dimension of argument here, I was just impressed he answered so quickly.


So, now it's finally settled: Aikido does work in a fight. Phew!!

Way to go Dan!! I hope some more Aikidoka start to do the same type of research. Also we have overlooked the fact that it all depends on the person, not just the art itself. My background is in Kyokushin Karate( Sensei Richard Wollicki, Spring valley, N.Y), Tang-soo-do (Master J.C Shin & Master in-ku-yu, Philadelphia, Burlington N.J), Aikido ( Sensei Baker, Sensei Peter Easton Maitland, Fl). In every one those styles, I am speaking from my personal limited experience, Always came down to the person. When I started Tang-soo -do, I sparred with a 2nd degree black belt & completely overpowered him with Kyokushin style. But after a week or so, I sparred with a 1st degree female Black belt. She kept me off my feet by sweeping & leg blocking. Her kicks had no telegraphic notion at all. Basically she soundly beaten me. And of course during my training with Sensei Baker, one of his junior instructors could not take a hard rush but others would toy with me like I was a kinder gardener in the play ground. So it all came down to the person in every time. Again it is only my experience(limited).
In year 2000 I was Flight Instructing to build flight hours to move to a regional Airlines. During that period, I have met two Flight Instructors from a friendly country. Both of them were ex shadow warriors. When I became assistant chief pilot, they revealed the fact due to a background check. Per them, Shadow warriors empty hand assassination method had only very few strike, all of those technique are from Daito-Ryu. But these few moves are drilled in such a precision & speed, will take a observers breath away. They indicated that if you are lucky enough to be a Daito Ryu practitioner, Add some ground fighting, to get away or get your weapon out, Finlay Massad Ayoobs LF1( a must). That will prepare you for almost anything in the street.
Everything that I have written so far, strictly from my personal experience & encounters. Thanks

Last edited by milhasan : 04-17-2006 at 10:33 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2006, 12:14 PM   #690
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Good comments Michael. Yea you can adapt kaitenage to a sprawl at least in principle if nothing else. I have a sprawl that you end up essentially with katenage. I suppose you could to it in an aikido dojo to show various applications of the principles of aikido and to show variation and "thinking outside of the box."

Yea there just isn't enough hours in the day to practice everything we should practice! So we have to pick the things that we feel are most important. Sometimes we have the luxury of that, other times we may not depending on our time, work, dojo etc.

Mohammed, what is a "shadow warrior"?

if they are assasin of some sort, it would stand to reason that you'd have only a few effective techniques. Assasins relay heavily on the elements of steath and suprise. They quickly overwelm there opponents with lethal force. So they have a very narrow focus and become very good at those things.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2006, 03:18 PM   #691
milhasan
Location: Orlando, Florida
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 20
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

[quote=Kevin

Mohammed, what is a "shadow warrior"?

if they are assasin of some sort, it would stand to reason that you'd have only a few effective techniques. Assasins relay heavily on the elements of steath and suprise. They quickly overwelm there opponents with lethal force. So they have a very narrow focus and become very good at those things.[/QUOTE]

Hi Kevin, Shadow warriors are a chosen few non-military field operatives with military background.(special force type) They are highly skilled in a lot of exotic weapons, language, tactics & various improvised methods needed for the particular region he/she operating. That includes flying few types of aircraft also. I was told to read a book called " The Brotherhood of the Rose". I was also told, In that book, training parts are mostly true. And after finishing the book I have to tell you, it was amazing.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2006, 10:51 PM   #692
Dajo251
Dojo: Aikido Downtown
Location: Rhode Island
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 262
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

So I dont know how this fits in but......there are two guys at my aikido school, both great aikidokas and good guys, one is a former BJJ guy and one is into MMA, and is going into his second matche ever next thursday, talking to them, radndomly tonight after class we got on the subject of aikido and how it would be pretty ineffective in an MMA match and they completly agreed on that, but that with a fight on the street aikido would be very effecting, or at least the priniciples of aikido. Ok Im done....

Dan Hulley
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2006, 08:57 AM   #693
dps
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,167
Offline
Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I used Aikido once when a guy tried to put me in a headlock and punch me in the face. It worked for me, I'm convinced.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2006, 09:04 AM   #694
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

how do you know it wasn't BJJ?
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2006, 10:31 AM   #695
philippe willaume
 
philippe willaume's Avatar
Location: windsor
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 317
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Hello

Practicing medieval wrestling (on foot on horse with and without Armour) and aikido, I am under the impression that there is lots of similarity between the two, technique wise that is.
It is quite clear that pin him down so that you can do whatever you want to him with you other hand (including stabbing him to satiety). Or in case of emergency/needs, break his arm/leg or strike him where it really hurts, may not be especially aikido minded.
As well, I need to point out that medieval wrestling was to be used in the context of judicial dual, where the loser, if not killed outright, was to suffer a particularly nasty demise.
Non-the-less, we can agree with my understanding that judicial dual participants were relatively motivated to win and used technique that they deemed efficient.
Since, I am of the opinion that aikido share the same technical merits, I would say the degree of use of those techniques is really a personal choice but that the potential is there.

Just a single example, the 3rd bone breaker is very uncannily alike irimi omote shihonague as per the book (either medieval manuscript or an aikido book for that matter).

For those who thinks that the person at the receiving end of the technique goes with the flow; i would say, yes we usually do.

From where I am standing I kind of appreciate the idea that I am being thrown or pinned instead of broken by shiho nague, but that is just me.

Call me "Suzane the big girl blouse" but I do not tend to linger when nikkio is applied and I tend to do my best impression a carpet flying down, especially since I know what’s coming and that i usually find it ever so slightly on the painfull side.

Suzane

Last edited by philippe willaume : 04-18-2006 at 10:40 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2006, 06:10 PM   #696
Man of Aiki
Dojo: Aikido By The Bay
Location: Portland Texas
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 45
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

There is a simple, and quite effective technique that an Aikidoka or Daito-Ryu practitioner can use to thwart an opponent going low trying to wrap them up around the knees and take them down.

I found this out during a randori where person training with us who had a Judo background and he decided to take me down that way.

It was so simple I couldn't believe it. I did it instinctively too, without any conscious thought.

As he came in low, his head down, arms wide and just as he was about to make contact with my thighs I pretended I had a sword in my hand, dropped my center and moved forward as if striking an opponent 3 feet away.

You do not pick your feet up when you attack with a sword. You glide, your feet never leaving the surface.

I did not step straight forward, either, but at a 45 degree angle, right into him.

The result was, he was totally unprepared for me to MOVE RIGHT INTO HIM as he was just about to wrap me up. He was still going forward and all of a sudden the space between his neck and shoulder met my thigh and my thigh was moving at an angle and my entire bodyweight was behind it.

We are taught to put our entire body into the sword strike, so that's what I did. He weighed around 195 but I weighted around 245. He's bent over and coming forward. I'm perfectly straight and centered.

Guess what happened?

It was like he was pulled backwards with one of those stunt wires they use when they pretend someone has been shot by a high-powered weapon in the movies. He flew backwards, hit the mat with his rear and then rolled completely over and sprawled out.

I didn't know a whole lot back then, but I figured I was onto something there. A few years later I saw a video of Gozo Shioda doing a demonstration and he was doing that sort of thing almost constantly; several times as attackers came at him he would suddenly swivel and hit them with his BACK and send them flying. Just when they were about to make contact he would move forward with his whole body and their own attacking energy would be thrown back at them.

That has to be the simplest and most direct way to thrward a BJJ style shoot that anyone can do. Simply move into the other person when they are about to wrap you up, and move into them STRONGLY with a low center and use your entire body.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2006, 06:36 PM   #697
Keith R Lee
Location: Alabama
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 219
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Brian Cates wrote:
There is a simple, and quite effective technique that an Aikidoka or Daito-Ryu practitioner can use to thwart an opponent going low trying to wrap them up around the knees and take them down.

I found this out during a randori where person training with us who had a Judo background and he decided to take me down that way.

It was so simple I couldn't believe it. I did it instinctively too, without any conscious thought.

As he came in low, his head down, arms wide and just as he was about to make contact with my thighs I pretended I had a sword in my hand, dropped my center and moved forward as if striking an opponent 3 feet away.

You do not pick your feet up when you attack with a sword. You glide, your feet never leaving the surface.

I did not step straight forward, either, but at a 45 degree angle, right into him.

The result was, he was totally unprepared for me to MOVE RIGHT INTO HIM as he was just about to wrap me up. He was still going forward and all of a sudden the space between his neck and shoulder met my thigh and my thigh was moving at an angle and my entire bodyweight was behind it.

We are taught to put our entire body into the sword strike, so that's what I did. He weighed around 195 but I weighted around 245. He's bent over and coming forward. I'm perfectly straight and centered.

Guess what happened?

It was like he was pulled backwards with one of those stunt wires they use when they pretend someone has been shot by a high-powered weapon in the movies. He flew backwards, hit the mat with his rear and then rolled completely over and sprawled out.

I didn't know a whole lot back then, but I figured I was onto something there. A few years later I saw a video of Gozo Shioda doing a demonstration and he was doing that sort of thing almost constantly; several times as attackers came at him he would suddenly swivel and hit them with his BACK and send them flying. Just when they were about to make contact he would move forward with his whole body and their own attacking energy would be thrown back at them.

That has to be the simplest and most direct way to thrward a BJJ style shoot that anyone can do. Simply move into the other person when they are about to wrap you up, and move into them STRONGLY with a low center and use your entire body.
And yet...somehow...in the thousands of years that greco style and free style wrestling have been practiced...no one has come up with this answer and have been busy doing other things? In the past two decades of MMA, in the past 40+ years of BJJ and Sambo, people with countless hours of full contact, full resistance sparring have not come up with this answer either? The whole time this answer has been in Japanese sword fighting systems!!!

If I wanted to know about wrist locks, I'd go to an Aikido dojo. If I want to learn about double legs, I'll go to a wrestling gym.

First, judo does not focus that much on full-body, leg-wrap take downs. Judo players just aren't that good at them, although they are fantastic at many other things. So I wouldn't put that much stock into being able to defending his take down. Not to mention, a "judo background." That could be anything from 8th kyu to 1st dan. Also, it's randori, in which people tend to not exactly give it their all when attacks are made. And lastly, you're surprised that you could stop him when you had a 50 pound weight advantage??? Yeah...if a 130 pound guy came in and gave me a crappy shoot I could stop it by leaning into him as well, no problem.

The only high percentage moves in reaction to low-level take downs are (in order): sprawls, whizzers, and kneeing someone in the face. Anything else might work one time, but will definitely not work reliably over a long time against a variety of opponents. Just in the 20th century, people have spent their entire lives in wrestling and studying how to execute low level take downs and how to counter them. I assure you, anything else is fantasy against someone who has good low-level take downs.

The answer is out there, it's just not in Aikido. Don't try and re-invent the wheel when it's not necessary. If you want to learn how to defend low-level take downs go to (in this order) a wrestling, Sambo, or BJJ gym. However, it really isn't necessary for Aikido practice, so unless you're just interested in expanding your martial repertoire, I'd say just practice Aikido and don't worry about those types of attacks.

Keith Lee
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2006, 06:43 PM   #698
Man of Aiki
Dojo: Aikido By The Bay
Location: Portland Texas
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 45
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I fail to understand how you think I was talking about thousands of years of greco-roman and free style wrestling.

I was clearly discussing how stepping right up forcefully into a lowshooting bent-over and on-rushing opponent turns their own energy back on them and thwarts the takedown attempt.

It's an effective tactic and it works.

Sorry you don't think so.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2006, 06:55 PM   #699
Man of Aiki
Dojo: Aikido By The Bay
Location: Portland Texas
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 45
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Keith, as an example of what I am talking about, I would refer you to this YouTube presentation in which Sensei Gozo Shioda, the founder of Yoshinkan Aikido, is giving a demonstration.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?search=...&v=1sCevYMrZtY

Shioda liked to illustrate the principle I am talking about by having his uke rush toward him fast and try to shove him hard in the chest. Just at the moment the uke's hands are about to make contact with his chest, Sensei Shido moves his entire being forward less than one inch, almost imperceptibly. The results are quite marked.

The attacker is covering distance, has momentum; Shioda Sensei seems to hardly move. Yet what is the result? The uke is thrown violently to the floor.

I simply did this to an opponent who was bent over, head down, trying to wrap up my knees.

If done with proper timing, *(Heck, EVERY AIKIDO TECH. HAS TO BE DONE WITH PROPER TIMING) the results speak for themselves.

Get the timing wrong, go to early, go too late, don't go strong enough, etc. of course it won't work.

But I've gotten that one right several times, so it's just not a nice theory that I have.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2006, 08:06 PM   #700
Chris Birke
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 258
Offline
Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

You can stop a midlevel shoot with a hip thrust, it's just not as reliable as a sprawl. It's the first thing that happens in this video, and its similar in theory to what you're talking about (Brian). You can see that it works, and also why "knowing the counter" has very little to do with what it takes to execute it in context.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOS2u...h=genki%20sudo

Genki rules.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What exactly is an independent dojo? David Yap General 64 11-14-2011 02:05 PM
failed? Leon Aman General 15 09-28-2006 05:15 AM
Aliveness in Martial Arts Video Clip Richard Langridge Open Discussions 60 08-10-2006 09:28 PM
Omoto-kyo Theology senshincenter Spiritual 77 12-04-2005 09:50 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:43 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate