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Old 04-13-2006, 11:32 AM   #651
Dajo251
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Id be intresting to see some documentation about aikidoka challenging the Gracies......

Dan Hulley
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Old 04-13-2006, 11:43 AM   #652
Roy Dean
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

The Mits Yamashita Interview is a classic source of documentation:

http://www.realfighting.com/0702/yamashtaframe.html

This interview inspired me to begin training in BJJ! Now I also see how the two arts are perfect compliments to each other...

Roy Dean
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Old 04-13-2006, 11:48 AM   #653
Richard Langridge
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Hehe, yeh sorry it was shameless stirring on my part.
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Old 04-13-2006, 12:02 PM   #654
Raspado
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

hahahahhahaha! I love it! Keep it up!
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Old 04-13-2006, 12:08 PM   #655
Raspado
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Cool story by the way Roy. I agree completely.
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Old 04-13-2006, 02:18 PM   #656
Koren Ko
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Excuse me,

Please forgive my rather impatient/quick question...
after reading for about an hour and the beginning 7 pages.
I just wonder, do that Mr "joeysola" still around and pokes his view? Or leave it cool? up to today?

How come this post still runs hot and popular after almost 5 and 3 quarters years? (Ignore exact time duration please)
Why not anyone who are still around in the akikweb forum make a summation of what they wrote in the past, over here so to help other newcomers (or impatient reader like me :P) to get a immediate knowledge of what's going on?(People tend to skip the long lists of replies....)

Btw, just wanna say that all forms of martial arts do have limits and there is no ultimate super martial art at all. What is out there is the will of a human whom overcome those limits. If there is an ultimate martial art, then its akin to get an ending interger for the famous pai, 3.142....

Unless its obstacles of your life, just avoid unnecessary troubles. You will be stupid to pedal up many cycles of hate and ignorance.

Just my 2 cents thought.

Thanks!

Last edited by Koren Ko : 04-13-2006 at 02:21 PM.
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Old 04-13-2006, 02:51 PM   #657
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Sweet! we are back to the Aikido, UFC, and the Gracies debate again! Man I love it!

I am an aikidoka and a MMA/BJJ guy. Here are a few comments from my perspective.

1. Aikido is a methodology generally designed to teach the princples of aiki, while it is based on aikijitjisu and traditional fighting arts of the japanese in pre colonial era...it's focus is really not designed will to adapt to fighting the gracies are anyone else for that matter. While you may be able to glean some useful techniques to defend yourself or to protect yourself in a mutually agreed to bar fight (yes all bar fights are require two or more parties that have agreed to fight), or a mugging these things are not aikido, even if you might call it that...it is using your faculties to fight or defend.

2. BJJ is also a system or methodology for training. It has a different focus and therefore has adapted a different strategies based on the same basic platform as aikido, but because of their perspective...they focus on more close in ground fighting for the most part. Same statements about fighting apply to this art as well.

3. Gracies created UFC to promote their system. So no wonder why they were so effective in the ring. If an aikidoka developed a system, it would look alot different. Probably the reason why you don't see it, is that it would look very stupid, or be very dangerous with weapons in the ring. Try and get insurance for that event!

That said, it doesn't mean aikido is "too lethal" and "better" than BJJ...simply a different perspective and dynamic...one that does not adapt to sport fighting.

4. Rules. Okay, you really think aikido has "no rules"? It has more rules than BJJ I think! I'd love to walk into an aikido class and be able to set the tempo and do whatever I want!

All forms of combat and fighting has rules. Ever hear of the Geneva convention? All militaries and fighters train to exploit the rules to the maximum advantage. You do what works!

5. Challenging the gracies. I haven't fought the Gracies, but I have fought and trained with a few closely related students from Brazil. Come on...think about it! Back to the rules...whose are we going to use? Can I have a knife? Gun? can I jump him when he doesn't expect it one afternoon? how about when he is sleeping, or in a restaurant on a date?

Any fight we tend to think of as a "mutually agreeable" "no rules" fight will have some rules...even if they are limited. The thing with BJJ and submission fighting is that these guys have removed as many rules as possible without risking death or going to jail...They have very, very efficiently devised systems of training which allow one to train to be very good at this type of fighting. Aikido simply does not play this game.

So go ahead master aikidoka...jump into the ring with a gracie purple belt and I will watch you get smoked playing by those rules.

BJJ has many, many advantages, as does aikido, but you have to really, really understand what each of those methodologies are conditoning and training you to do.

I train soldiers in BJJ and MMA concepts...the army has invested lots of time and bucks in this area...why? because we have found in combat that these systems best exploit and develop soldiers for the type of situations they will face in unarmed combat.

If they have distance and time...well we are going to use another means of force to gain the upper hand.

Why not aikido...nothing against the art...it simply does not present a methodology that is efficient in training for those particular scenarios we have deemed to be or high probability.

I do however, use aikido concepts and principles daily when we train...especially when we get into striking weapons. Although we have found kali, and escrima to be better models for this.

I know most of us have limited time to train, and we come into the arts for various reasons, most of the time we are attracted to the MA for reasons we really don't understand or for irrational reasons, that seem rational at the time (i.e. self defense).

Because of this limited time you have you want to make the most of it. We also want to study something we think will benefit us immensly. We tend to compare ourselves to others and to other arts...that is were we go wrong! We all need that validiation that what we are studying will make us the best!

However, the best at what???? there is no one martial art that will make you the best at everything martial. plus, we all don't have the luxury of time to focus on the whole big enchalada!

Study aikido for what aikido was meant to be studied for! (good luck figuring out what it is! ) Study BJJ for what it was meant to be studied for! Get to know yourself, and ask yourself why you are studying MA...then spend many, many years discovering the answer!


Good luck on your journey!
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Old 04-13-2006, 03:14 PM   #658
Derek Gaudet
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Someone might as well start a thread entitled "Brazilian Jujutsu Vs. Aikido", I think we've left the "Aikido doesn't work in a fight" stage. Seems like there's a lot of hostility between BJJ and Aikido, maybe the more important question is: WHY? This is the same as "Karate is better then Tae Kwon Do"... we all might want to except the fact that the art that works is the one that works for us, and get away from the proving it on the street, in the Ring or whatever.... 2 more cents tossed into the hat .

Kind Regards,
Derek Gaudet
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Old 04-13-2006, 03:59 PM   #659
Koren Ko
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Derek Gaudet wrote:
Someone might as well start a thread entitled "Brazilian Jujutsu Vs. Aikido", I think we've left the "Aikido doesn't work in a fight" stage. Seems like there's a lot of hostility between BJJ and Aikido, maybe the more important question is: WHY? This is the same as "Karate is better then Tae Kwon Do"... we all might want to except the fact that the art that works is the one that works for us, and get away from the proving it on the street, in the Ring or whatever.... 2 more cents tossed into the hat .
Agree,I am for the cross training and gaining experiences, but not the hostility.

I dun think Karate is greater of TaeKwonDo and vice versa for any other style too.
Like I said, there is no ultimate martial art style. It is the practioner's awareness and potential makes a martial art looks...ultimate than he/she's opponent.
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Old 04-13-2006, 04:18 PM   #660
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Derek wrote:

Quote:
Seems like there's a lot of hostility between BJJ and Aikido, maybe the more important question is: WHY?
I believe it is ignorance. If you could look back on some of the post going back to 1996 or so on the aiki listserve....you'd find I too was having many of the same issues and arguments!
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Old 04-13-2006, 04:47 PM   #661
Keith R Lee
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I think Kevin summed things up very, very well in his post (#657). Aikido and BJJ are different strokes for different folks. In terms of Aikido vs BJJ, I don't think this really exists that much. It's more BJJ guys vs ALL TMAs. BJJ guys have very little patience in terms of anything that does not immediately make them a better fighter. The way they determine this is they take whatever they have just learned and attempt to apply it while "rolling." (read: full speed grappling to tapout).

If it doesn't work, they throw it out. Guess what? Aikido rarely, if ever, works in that type of situation on the ground. Hell, it doesn't work that well standing up either, especially since the other guy is trained, and actively resisting your technique. Not to mention, if you don't what to do when someone shoots in for a double leg, low level single, fireman's carry, etc. you're probably screwed. I've yet to meet a "pure" Aikidoka who knows what these techniques are. Therefore, BJJ guys tend to dismiss Aikido immediately out of hand when they encounter it. Not to mention, as I have brought up before, the type of person who is at a BJJ/MMA gym, is of a certain sort. A small snip from that post:

Quote:
Contrast that with a twenty-something year old fit male (generally these are most "fighters"), who played sports in high school, probably a football player or wrestler. This person is already fit and is used to high-stress, high-risk training already. They've heard about the Gracies, and have caught some of the recent Ultimate Fighter stuff. Maybe seen a UFC PPV or if they've got the right friends, they've seen PrideFC.

They walk into an Aikido dojo for a look. Everyone is wearing uniforms and skirts! It looks all soft, not like the fighting they saw on TV. No competition, that's weak. This guy has been competing his entire life, he's fine with it. Everything is in Japanese too. I have to learn a different language to learn this stuff!? They seem to roll around all the time and do blending exercises. There's also a bunch of bowing and stuff. The weapons are kinda cool, but he doesn't really plan on carrying a sword around with him all the time.

Then he goes to a BJJ or MMA gym. Gym! It's already better. No fancy names for everything here! Everything's pretty much in English. Some guys are wearing uniforms, no skirts though. Lots of people are just in shorts and rash guards. They do a bunch of conditioning at first. Cool. This guy is in shape. He likes doing sit-ups and push-ups and stuff. They do some weird things he's never seen before but he can recognize them for conditioning drills. No one bows, they all just shake hands. Much better. They really go at it while training too. No big throws or anything but, depending on if it's a BJJ or MMA place, the guy might see combination drills, lots of movement drills, takedowns, bag work, mitt work, groundwork…Hey, this is like the UFC. These guys are getting ready to fight! Then they do fight! At the end they spar or roll till one taps out. And everyone is intense. There is no one casual here. Everyone is an athlete.

Where do you think our potential student is going to go?
Through sheer physical strength and conditioning, a mid level BJJ guy is going to be able to handle almost any Aikidoka just because of the type of people who rise to the top of the art. That's why they have weight classes, etc. Size matters.

All that being said, Aikido is still great! It's an awesome art that focues on a few certain things. Aiki, timing, movement, distance. Although, at high levels I think almost everyone would agree that most martial arts are about the latter 3 things, grappling included. Ask any grappler who has good sweeps what is the most important part, the foot movement or the timing? I think that part of the problem also lies with Aikido students. Because they never have the opportunity to actually test their tachnique, they are very touchy about it. Most rely on hearsay and trust in their sensei that their techniques work. So when Aikido gets challenged, they automatically go on the defensive about the art.

When in reality, I think grappling is a fantastic supplement to Aikido training. The interview Roy Dean link earlier in the thread is a great example of why to study Aikido plus grappling and an awesome example of a sensei who is willing to challenge his assumptions and grow as a martial artist. Very inspiring.

Of course, with all this BJJ vs Aikido, vs whatever, we Sambo guys just kick back knowing our fighting system is the most superior one on the planet and let you guys squabble amongst yourselves.

Any doubters can take it up with Fedor Emelianenko.

Keith Lee
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Old 04-14-2006, 12:51 PM   #662
Raspado
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Great post Keith, one problem is Fedor's main background is JUDO!!!! : )

Now seriously guys--look what's wrong with TMA's:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...+pride&pl=true
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Old 04-14-2006, 12:54 PM   #663
Raspado
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Fedor:

http://fedor.bel.ru/bio/index_eng.shtml
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Old 04-14-2006, 01:01 PM   #664
Neil Mick
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Aikido does not work at all in a fight.
Talking about Aikido does not work at all, in regards to fighting.
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Old 04-14-2006, 01:03 PM   #665
Raspado
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Uh, ok Neil. Very prophetic.
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Old 04-14-2006, 03:42 PM   #666
Michael Douglas
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I'd just like to applaud Kevin Leavitt's post.
Very nice.
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Old 04-14-2006, 04:15 PM   #667
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Thanks for the compliment. Sorry for all the mistakes and grammatical errors, I was on a roll and in a hurry!

Mike love the bullshido clip, I loved the cat walking in the background of the one guy! Some of it reminds me of some of the crazy things I used to do when I first started training!

Keith, you sambo guys rule! Wish i had some to study with! It looks like a pretty decent blend of greco, jiujitsu, and aikido to be honest!
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Old 04-14-2006, 10:37 PM   #668
CNYMike
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

[ramble]

Quote:
Keith Lee wrote:
....It's more BJJ guys vs ALL TMAs .....
Yes, some posters I've seen on the 'net over the years sound as if they want TMAs to be totally stamped out. I don't understand this, especially as I can not recall evern reading a TMA person writing about how BJJ et al should be stamped out. If I'm wrong, mea culpa, but usually the BJJ/MMA loud mouths are on the offensive. But are such people the rule or a very vocal exception? When I joined Aikiweb, Michael Neal's posts made me think there's a feud between Judo and AIkido; now it looks like enough people do both that Mike may be feuding, but no one else is.

Like you say, Keith, different strokes for different folks, but even then, who's to say "the sort" who looks into an Aikido dojo might not say "Hey, this is kind of interesting and fun even though it's not what I'm used to, so I'll stick with it." Marketing people talk about demogrpahichs and psychographics, the latter being harder to predict because it's what's in their head. So you might think are 20-something grappler might automatically eschew Aikido, but some might not. I recall a post here a long time ago when someone who had tried Aikido said he liked it so much he would keep doing it and BJJ.

One reason I advocate cross training is because if you do both arts A and B, then with both inside you, you can't really get too mixed up in "this verus that." You have both games under your belt. If you think Aikido is enough, do just that. You want to cross-train, do that, too. It's a question of what works for you, and the devil take what anyone else thinks.

[/ramble]
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Old 04-14-2006, 10:49 PM   #669
CNYMike
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Richard Langridge wrote:
Well put Michael, I agree entirely.
And to those people out there who think UFC=real, check out the rules: http://www.ufc.com/index.cfm?fa=LearnUFC.Rules
Funny how just about everything you might think about doing to defend against a BJJ grappler seems to have a rule against it... almost as though BJJ practitioners had an unfair advantage... hmm...
Wwwwwwwaaaaaaaaaalllllll ..... It may not be that clear cut. A long time ago I was at a seminar with Eric Paulson (that or I sat in on a work shop) and he said hitting a grappler in the groin when he was on top of you would just get him mad. Not a good idea. And so not something you would bank on in that situation.

Some things are illegal probably for safety, like going for the throat or the trachea. Others, like small joint manipulation, well IF you can get it the fight ends too fast. But they are hard to get according to my Kali instructor.

So -- just to confuse everyboy by having a foot on the other side of the fence -- I wouldn't look at the rules as rigging the game by ruling out things grpallers are vulnerable to. They're worth noting, but I would keep it in perspective.
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Old 04-15-2006, 12:23 PM   #670
Richard Langridge
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Yeh I know Michael, I was just being cheeky.
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Old 04-15-2006, 01:05 PM   #671
Josh Reyer
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:
[ramble]
Yes, some posters I've seen on the 'net over the years sound as if they want TMAs to be totally stamped out. I don't understand this, especially as I can not recall evern reading a TMA person writing about how BJJ et al should be stamped out. If I'm wrong, mea culpa, but usually the BJJ/MMA loud mouths are on the offensive. But are such people the rule or a very vocal exception? When I joined Aikiweb, Michael Neal's posts made me think there's a feud between Judo and AIkido; now it looks like enough people do both that Mike may be feuding, but no one else is.
I'm reminded of when Johnny Cash covered Nine Inch Nails' "Hurt". A fair number of NIN fans lamblasted it. A fair number of Johnny Cash fans crowed that The Man in Black had taken some two-bit, new fangled alternative rock band's song and made it something powerful and magical with his talent.

The musicians themselves, in contrast to their fans, had/have much greater eclectic tastes. Trent Reznor respected Johnny Cash and went from "flattered" that Cash would do the song to powerfully moved by the video. Cash, of course, listened to Nine Inch Nails and enjoyed the song enough to want to cover it in the first place.

It's not uncommon for hip-hop artists to have much more eclectic tastes and wider musical influences than they are given credit for.

In the same way, I think the people in martial arts who are the equivalent of these professionals, those who have made it their whole life, have the same kind of wide view of the whole situation. They understand the weaknesses in their own art and the strengths of others, and why each trains the way it does. It's the hobbyists, the "fans" as it were, who have the myopic views for the most part.

/broad generalizations

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
- Chaucer
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Old 04-15-2006, 03:26 PM   #672
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Joshua Reyer wrote:
Trent Reznor respected Johnny Cash and went from "flattered" that Cash would do the song to powerfully moved by the video.
<ot>
Anyone not powerfully moved by that video, Johnny Cash fan or not, must surely have a heart of stone.
</ot>
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Old 04-15-2006, 06:04 PM   #673
milhasan
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I am new in this forum.I was lurking in several martial arts forums at least last 6 months.There are nothing but Bjj trolls saturating the forums. Per these trolls, all martial arts are being owned by Bjj. They are not only blasting Aikido, you ought to read about TKD & other striking arts they are after. After a brief conversation with A Bjj instructor this is what I learned. Most of this Bjj trolls are those,so called, 3 month & quit experts. Usually they can be seen in local judo/jujutsu tournament as a loud spectator wearing TAP OUT t-shirt. Also starting fights in the parking lot after the tournament. Real dedicated Bjj practitioners are not bashing other arts in the net. And also they are taking up a striking art such as Muay Thai, Boxing etc.
Now, correct me if I am wrong, is'nt it goes everything against most of the traditional arts to be in a fight? Self defense, yes. Fighting, No. Self defense is legal. Fight, not legal. As a practitioner of Aikido, we ought to know, how not to get into a fight to begin with.

Now to the Bjj/MMa cult... Aikido went under a lot of trial for the SELF DEFENSE in the street & passed with flying colors. Have Bjj/MMa done that yet? Then why is one of the Gracie stated, for self defense" get a gun"? Not all Aikidoka is out of shape . A lot of Aikidoka that I know are black belts from other arts. Some of them were already unfair, vicious street fighters before starting Aikido. Can they go to a Bjj class & train? Yes they can . They got the time & money to do that. But, these guys don't like to roll around on the street trying to get a armbar or rear naked choke. Guess why? Because these guys have concealed weapons permit & carry guns. I don't think anybody that carries a concealed gun wants to do that in right mind. Here in Orlando, Sheriffs dept. have their own Aikido dojo. They could have chosen BJJ like Marines did. But in urban environment, Aikido proven to be the right choice for them. Massad Ayoobs LF1(Lethal force institute) chosen Aikido Techniques for their hand to hand defense course. You think these people don't have street experience? Even the most experienced street fighter & knife expert Marc Macyoung refuses to use BJJ/MMa ufc style cage fighting in the street. He is the most vocal opponent of traditional styles. Read what he has to say about Bjj/MMa in the street.
My point... Stop going around & bashing TMA. We Don't practice martial arts months, years so we can be a BAAD *ss fighter. I am not looking forward to go out & fight somebody to prove my superior style of martial art. Because, I live in a real world. I don't live in a UFC soap opera. I know that a 12 year old punk with a $50 dollar Raven .25 caliber pistol can end my years of training, sweat & blood. Then again it's just me. Maybe Bjjr's can dodge bullets too?

My apology to all posters for ranting . I just can't take any longer of this kind of Art bashing. I needed to get this off my chest. Thanks

Last edited by milhasan : 04-15-2006 at 06:09 PM.
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Old 04-16-2006, 12:13 AM   #674
Josh Reyer
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Mohammed Hasan wrote:
Here in Orlando, Sheriffs dept. have their own Aikido dojo. They could have chosen BJJ like Marines did. But in urban environment, Aikido proven to be the right choice for them. Massad Ayoobs LF1(Lethal force institute) chosen Aikido Techniques for their hand to hand defense course. You think these people don't have street experience?
The Tokyo Metropolitan Police mobile police, the Special Assault Team, and the Security Police (=Secret Service), who have a lot to choose from in terms of MA, and who must surely be discriminating on such matters, have all made Yoshinkan Aikido their unarmed martial art of choice, or at the least one of their unarmed martial arts of choice. So, as far as I'm concerned, aikido has plenty of street cred, and its all down to the man and the context.

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
- Chaucer
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Old 04-16-2006, 01:13 AM   #675
Man of Aiki
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I first visited this forum over 3 years ago shortly after this thread first started.

It was begun by a guy who had seen two of the early UFC/MMA events where guys who called themselves 'Aikidoists' were easily dispatched by juijitsu stylists. From this, he adduced that Aikido would not work in a 'real fight'.

having seen one of the matches he was referring to, it was obvious to me that a sport begun by grapplers, on a very soft grappling surface, and with rules favoring grapplers is mostly won by.....grapplers.

It's also true that far too many Aikido schools spend all their time teaching students how to deal with traditional attacks; shomenuchi, yokomenuchi, maybe a front kick, etc.

Very few Aikido schools of the traditional sort I have seen teach students how to avoid an opponent ducking and shooting in below waist level and grabbing you around the knees, taking you down and then climbing on top of you and pounding your face into a pizza.

Which is precisely how the supposed Aikidoka in the video I saw got taken out.

Now, why is that?

Well Aikido was formed for use on the battlefield where weapons are present. Not too many schools of thought on warfare believe it's a good idea to try to take an enemy down to the ground and then sit on top of him when combat is going on all around you.

Many Aikido techs come from either taking on an opponent armed with a sword or a staff or knife or where the proponent had the sword or staff.

Judo/Jujitsu the way these MMA guys are practicing it depends on shooting in on an UNARMED opponent.

Yeah it's 1643 and I'm involved in a big battle on the Japanese mainland. There's a warrior on the other side over there who's been training to use that sword he's carrying since he was 5 years old. I've lost my own weapon, so now I'm gonna RUN OVER THERE AND GO LOW AND TACKLE THE GUY AROUND THE KNEES AND TAKE HIM DOWN.

Uh-huh. Suuuuuuuuure I am.

If you ended up taking an armored, weapon carrying warrior on the battle-field with your bare hands you had a far better chance of surviving if you knew aikijutsu. Trying BJJ in that situation would just get you killed.

O-Sensei developed Aikido from Daito-Ryu Aikijutsu which, lest we forget, was a samurai BATTLEFIELD ART. It was formulated from weapons techniques primarly to allow a warrior to survive an encounter with an ARMED OPPONENT.

This is why the one key thing missing from most Aikido instruction is low shoots or tackles below the waist, because on the battlefield anybody who charged an armed opponent like that died very suddenly.

Some schools have recognized this, and used Aikido principles to formulate defenses against low takedowns and below the waist tackles.

Others still content themselves with teaching students only how to avoid standup attacks, the basic strikes, mostly punches and grabs and maybe a kick or two mixed in.

BJJ and other MMA centric arts were formulated on the presupposition of two UNARMED people facing each other in an equal contest. Aikido and the traditional arts of Japan and China were NOT formulated on similar foundations. It was assumed always that at least ONE of the parties was armed.
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