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Old 04-06-2006, 09:41 AM   #626
merlynn
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Dirk Hanss wrote:
No Karen, you're wrong.
While kicking in the nuts does not sound aiki-like, just think the other way. The intension is not kicking in the nuts but making him move. If he does, you might be able to take him down withaout creating any pain or injury. If he doesn't move, it is his own decision, isn't it?

Or what do you think are all our atemi-exercises for? Yes if you are perfect, you do not need any atemi, all we others do

Best regards Dirk
no i dont need to use atemi all i have to do is show my face and that in its self is enough

some things are so dear and so precious you have to let them go
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Old 04-06-2006, 10:51 AM   #627
Dirk Hanss
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Karen Dodsworth wrote:
no i dont need to use atemi all i have to do is show my face and that in its self is enough
That's part of not-appropriate atemi; I guess. At least in our dojo

You see, like stepping on the foot, exhaling onion&garlic flavour, biting the nose, etc., i.e. everything that's meaner than killing, kicking in the nuts or poking in the eyes..

Dirk
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Old 04-07-2006, 01:06 AM   #628
CNYMike
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

... can't believe I'm keeping this thing alive .... Forgive me; I'm weak.

Quote:
Dirk Hanss wrote:
....While kicking in the nuts does not sound aiki-like, just think the other way. The intension is not kicking in the nuts but making him move. If he does, you might be able to take him down withaout creating any pain or injury. If he doesn't move, it is his own decision, isn't it?
Every so often you hear about frightening individuals who are immune to groin attacks. This does not mean you should give up on kicking to the groin -- just have a "plan B" in mind if they don't obligingly double over in pain.

Quote:
Or what do you think are all our atemi-exercises for? Yes if you are perfect, you do not need any atemi, all we others do

Best regards Dirk
This is probably one of those things that varies from dojo to dojo; my impression is that since most techinques are off uke's lead hand, an atemi to the face is meant to give him something to think about so the rear hand doesn't fire and you have a second to get going. Just a thought.
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Old 04-07-2006, 03:10 AM   #629
Dirk Hanss
 
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Re: Aikido does work great in a fight.

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:
... can't believe I'm keeping this thing alive .... Forgive me; I'm weak.
Well, at the moment it is getting funny, isn't it?

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:
Every so often you hear about frightening individuals who are immune to groin attacks. This does not mean you should give up on kicking to the groin -- just have a "plan B" in mind if they don't obligingly double over in pain.
And even if he is not immune, he might block or counter differently from what you expect. So never expect anything and always have a plan B, C, D, ...


Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:
This is probably one of those things that varies from dojo to dojo; my impression is that since most techinques are off uke's lead hand, an atemi to the face is meant to give him something to think about so the rear hand doesn't fire and you have a second to get going. Just a thought.
Yes, thanks Michael.
Just analoguous to the part above. In case uke is not able to think or realises (thinks to realise), that you would never hit him/her seriously, but just want to keep the free hand busy, you must be ready and able to do a real atemi, or you better find other strategies to not getting hit by the free hand. Ideally you just change your technique (plan ZF, I guess) and use the "new attacking arm" for it. That might help even if uke is immune against lethal atemi

Regards Dirk
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Old 04-07-2006, 08:22 AM   #630
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Aikido is practical for Self Defense.
I am not sure if someone has allready posted my ideas because I have not read all of the pages, so I hope I am not repeating someone else's ideas.

1. We are given information, practice, and help from our senseis'
for physical martial arts in defending yourself. The one that it is taught, does not necessarily have to be the way it is performed. You are ment to be able to mix and match certain techniques with others so that you can create an appropriate move or a new one. Therefore, it is your own creativity that you use when you are defendeing yourself. You create the move from the experience that you have learned from. If you are not intelligent enough to do that, than it will help you only some of the time in a fight.

2. Aikido is not solely about Self Defense techniques for fighting. But also for your emotions and stuff. It also teaches you other aspects to take into your life besides fighting and defending yourself.

Gambatte Kudosai.
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Old 04-07-2006, 09:20 AM   #631
Dirk Hanss
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Thank's Dylan,
now the circle is closed. I do not know by heart, but in most ofthese threads your arguments are found between No 2 and 10. So we can start from the beginning and easily pass the magic 1000. Or we can stop as the snake bit its tail, or so ...


Dirk
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Old 04-07-2006, 01:08 PM   #632
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

awe come on...you can do it...go back and read every single post! I'd have to agree with Dirk, all the questions have been answered probably in the first 10 post. That said, isn't life fun? we've pretty much darn figured all this stuff out a long time ago, but we must keep constantly questioning and reminding ourselves that which we forget all too easily!

That is why I keep responding to this thread, it is a good exercise, and there are constantly new people asking the same questions!

Life would be very boring if we just accepted things and moved on!
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Old 04-07-2006, 03:31 PM   #633
CNYMike
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Re: Aikido does work great in a fight.

Quote:
Dirk Hanss wrote:
... In case uke is not able to think or realises (thinks to realise), that you would never hit him/her seriously, but just want to keep the free hand busy, you must be ready and able to do a real atemi .....
Weeellllll ..... I don't know you and I don't train in your dojo, so I don't know how you do things. But for the sake of safety, there have to be limits on how "real" things can be with your training partner. For instance, you can't really gouge uke's eyes out just to keep him/her on his/her toes; you should simulate it with a pat on the head, as Jun Fan/JKD people do (AFAIK). A full force strike to the face is also questionable. It's one thing if two people who are intermediate and advanced in a dojo that approves of that do things that way -- then you reduce the possibility of getting hurt, esepcially if both understand it's ok to "wake the person up." It's quite another to wail on someone who doesn't exepct it or can't handle it. If you weren't advocating that, my bad, but I had to make that point.

I've had the virtues of training safely and cuteously hammered into me for a couple of years now, so I'm a little sensitve about this issue. I'm also a big beleiver in not ambushing someone or deliberately making things difficult. That doesn't help; the other person just gets frustrated or mad.

It doesn't matter which martial art you're talking about -- you and your training partners are there to help each other learn, not beat each other to pulps. As a practical matter, remember the average MA class is about 90 minutes long; training safely insures practitioners can get all the way to the end with little more than bruises and some sore muscles, so they are healthy enough to come back again.
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Old 04-07-2006, 03:33 PM   #634
CNYMike
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
Life would be very boring if we just accepted things and moved on!
The threads on Aikiweb go 'round and 'round ... and 'round and 'round and 'round .... Everybody sing .... !
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Old 04-08-2006, 02:00 PM   #635
Dan D Carreau
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Trust the technique.

Go through your obstacle not over it.

Dan
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Old 04-09-2006, 10:05 AM   #636
Dirk Hanss
 
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Re: Aikido does work great in a fight.

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:
Weeellllll ..... I don't know you and I don't train in your dojo, so I don't know how you do things. But for the sake of safety, there have to be limits on how "real" things can be with your training partner. For instance, you can't really gouge uke's eyes out just to keep him/her on his/her toes; you should simulate it with a pat on the head, as Jun Fan/JKD people do (AFAIK). A full force strike to the face is also questionable. It's one thing if two people who are intermediate and advanced in a dojo that approves of that do things that way -- then you reduce the possibility of getting hurt, esepcially if both understand it's ok to "wake the person up." It's quite another to wail on someone who doesn't exepct it or can't handle it. If you weren't advocating that, my bad, but I had to make that point.

I've had the virtues of training safely and cuteously hammered into me for a couple of years now, so I'm a little sensitve about this issue. I'm also a big beleiver in not ambushing someone or deliberately making things difficult. That doesn't help; the other person just gets frustrated or mad.

It doesn't matter which martial art you're talking about -- you and your training partners are there to help each other learn, not beat each other to pulps. As a practical matter, remember the average MA class is about 90 minutes long; training safely insures practitioners can get all the way to the end with little more than bruises and some sore muscles, so they are healthy enough to come back again.
Hi Mike,
I'ld appreciate, if someone would like to join us. Unfortunately there are not many training partners left
I said "you should be ready and able to do it". We do not do it in training. Or let me say it this way: we start slowly and increase power and speed according to both training partners actual conditions. We have not gone so far to achieve knock-outs, but some "uffs" you could hear.

So yes, you're right. Safety first. There is no need to cripple people, in order to get them ready for "real fights". At least not in the environments, I live in.

Regards Dirk
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Old 04-09-2006, 10:15 AM   #637
CNYMike
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Re: Aikido does work great in a fight.

Quote:
Dirk Hanss wrote:
Hi Mike,
I'ld appreciate, if someone would like to join us. Unfortunately there are not many training partners left
Yeah, and you have to bury them somewhere other than under the dojo; word is your neighbors are complaining about the smell. Don't you hate that?

Quote:
I said "you should be ready and able to do it". We do not do it in training. Or let me say it this way: we start slowly and increase power and speed according to both training partners actual conditions. We have not gone so far to achieve knock-outs, but some "uffs" you could hear.

So yes, you're right. Safety first. There is no need to cripple people, in order to get them ready for "real fights". At least not in the environments, I live in.

Regards Dirk
I stand corrected.
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Old 04-09-2006, 03:10 PM   #638
theflyingheadbuttsuplex
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Wow, this thread is still going strong.

I think I posted on this thread 5 months ago.

Anyway, my opinion on why aikido doesn't seem to work to well in the boxing ring is that aikido isn't made for winning "fights" It's goal is to keep physial agression from becoming a "fight"
It isn't designed for defeating opponents in the octagon, it's supposed to restrain/ground an attacker and prevent a fight from starting without hurting attacker or defender. I think this is why it works well with law enforcement.

principals and techniqes of aikido could work well in a fight no doubt, but wouldn't be an end in itself.

Just my two cents
feel free to criticise/argue/disagree with me

If there is no wind, row!
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Old 04-10-2006, 09:50 AM   #639
Dennis Good
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Just a thought. I was wondering if I started a thread about an Aikido bake sale, how long would it take before the MMA/BJJ crowd claimed their cupcakes were better than the Aikido muffins. As for which style is better I believe it all comes down to context and what better actually means and who it means it to. I don't fight in cage matches, battle royal's, provoke people in bars or generaly put myself in a situation where my technical ability would be tested, I don't have the need to prove how manly I am by instigating a fight, I am always aware of my surroundings and avoid potential comfrontations in isolated areas. I am laid back and don't let my temper get the best of me. A walk with good posture and an aire of conidence of knowing that should a problem arize I have a much better chance than the average person of coming out of an altercation with minimal injuries. Since I started practicing Aikido in 1991 I have not been involved in a single fight except to break up a few fights and restrain those involved until they calmed down. To me that is what Aikido is about. So aikido is the PERFECT art (for me)
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Old 04-10-2006, 10:14 AM   #640
Richard Langridge
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Nice post Dennis, I hope to share your confidence with my further training... (6th kyu)
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Old 04-10-2006, 02:01 PM   #641
CNYMike
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Burt Masem wrote:
Wow, this thread is still going strong.

I think I posted on this thread 5 months ago.

Anyway, my opinion on why aikido doesn't seem to work to well in the boxing ring is that aikido isn't made for winning "fights" It's goal is to keep physial agression from becoming a "fight"
It isn't designed for defeating opponents in the octagon, it's supposed to restrain/ground an attacker and prevent a fight from starting without hurting attacker or defender. I think this is why it works well with law enforcement.

principals and techniqes of aikido could work well in a fight no doubt, but wouldn't be an end in itself.

Just my two cents
feel free to criticise/argue/disagree with me
Well, it is interesting to note that Aikido shares some footwork one would normally find in a kickboxing system. The basic shuffle step, where the leed foot moves and then the rear foot catches up, also appears in western and Filipino boxing; my kali instructor refers to it as the "step and slide." And a step shuffle and 90 degree tenkan as found in gyaku hanmi katate-dori nikkyo ura isn't too far off from the "step and circle out" found in boxing. And yes, that footwork is sometimes done from an unmatched leed, which in Aikido is called gyaku hanmi! On top of that, any Aikido person who has done a technique where nage makes the first move and they act of uke's defense knows the overall strategy that ties kickboxing to trapping and grappling.

Of course Aikido doesn't have a kickboxing on gurad position and in spite of Atemi waza, doesn't do a lot of punching and kicking from that range. But is interesting that other atoms or elements of kickboxing are there, too.

Just my 2p.
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Old 04-11-2006, 06:01 AM   #642
Mark Freeman
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Dennis Good wrote:
Just a thought. I was wondering if I started a thread about an Aikido bake sale, how long would it take before the MMA/BJJ crowd claimed their cupcakes were better than the Aikido muffins. As for which style is better I believe it all comes down to context and what better actually means and who it means it to. I don't fight in cage matches, battle royal's, provoke people in bars or generaly put myself in a situation where my technical ability would be tested, I don't have the need to prove how manly I am by instigating a fight, I am always aware of my surroundings and avoid potential comfrontations in isolated areas. I am laid back and don't let my temper get the best of me. A walk with good posture and an aire of conidence of knowing that should a problem arize I have a much better chance than the average person of coming out of an altercation with minimal injuries. Since I started practicing Aikido in 1991 I have not been involved in a single fight except to break up a few fights and restrain those involved until they calmed down. To me that is what Aikido is about. So aikido is the PERFECT art (for me)
Good post Dennis, thanks.

The whole 'aikido doesn't work at all in a fight' issue will probably never go away. I'm sure there are a few folks out there who have started a fight with someone only to be beaten by the others use of aikido who will agree that it does.
For us, the aikidoka, the focus of our practice should not be about 'fighting' at all. We have a lifetimes worth of exercises and techniques to practice, to hone, to perfect as much as possible, to teach when ready to. Fighting for 'sport' is not as far as I am concerned part of the aikido philosophy as described by the founder. Fighting for 'real' should only be engaged in as a last resort, for the purposes of protection of life.
The need to physically prove oneself against an opponent has a long history, and public fighting matches have long been a popular spectator sport. The problem here is that the actual 'fighters' are usually 'owned' or 'managed' and are in my mind the human equivalent of cockerels or dogs, just two opposing forces to be 'bet' on. Their wellbeing is secondary to the desire of the crowd to see a winner and a loser. Very base, but admittedly exciting.
Aikido should not enter into this 'ring' unless it want to be seen in the same light. It needs to stay in it's own sphere and be what it is for it's own sake.
I was very impressed by Gozo Shioda's book Aikido Shugyo. I come from the ki end of aikido, but after reading this book I really gained an appreciation of the harder martial aspects of the training and life of the author. Anyone reading it would not be inclined to say that aikido doesn't work at all in a fight.
The interesting thing is, that as the author gets older he gains a deeper understanding of O Sensei's non-violent non competetive teaching, and that winning a fight is not what aikido is about.
I too, started in 1992 and have not been involved in a fight. And I am looking forward to many more years of fight free life. The funny thing is the more I 'practice' not fighting, the more able I feel I would be should I ever 'have' to engage in one.

Cheers,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 04-12-2006, 04:57 PM   #643
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

i don't know why there are no aikido masters joined the UFC....

what is the reason behind why aikido masters even steven seagal don't want UFC?

it was said in other post is that aikido is for multiple attackers? if that so then you need to prove if aikido can handle one attacker by joining the UFC.
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Old 04-12-2006, 05:33 PM   #644
Dajo251
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

IMO aikido isnt about fighting, there for it has no place in the UFC which is all about fighting,

Dan Hulley
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Old 04-12-2006, 08:02 PM   #645
Derek Gaudet
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Jov Cabanag wrote:
it was said in other post is that aikido is for multiple attackers? if that so then you need to prove if aikido can handle one attacker by joining the UFC.
The UFC proves you are good at sport fighting, nothing more. Contrary to belief, UFC isn't "no holds bared", there are rules, and therefore it is not the same as a real fight, where there are no rules.

Kind Regards,
Derek Gaudet
Goshin Aikido
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Old 04-13-2006, 02:31 AM   #646
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

MMA people argue:- TMA people (including Aikido-ka) sucks because they don't spar live and do resistant randori and does not join Pride, K-1 to prove their prowess.

TMA people argue:- MMA sucks because they only concentrate on ring fight with man made rules and do not do weapon based training, hence is not realistic enough.

Well, depending on how you see it, both side think that each other sucks. There you go... enternally a catch 22 situation.

Have we reach the 1,000th post yet?... No? ... Damn!

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Old 04-13-2006, 07:51 AM   #647
Peter Seth
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Wink Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Hi All.
If Aiki principles are employed properly you can 'win' a fight by not fighting at all. (Bruce Lee on the boat scenario). 'Big' aikido (life) can be a battlefield, the more you can harmonise your spirit and energies with the 'stuff' going on round you the better. But, to be realistic sometimes a fight is unavoidable, I think if I was aware of the situation developing I could use my somewhat limited skills (bout 30years) to 'not be there' or at least minimise any damage to myself. Untill I could get to my 'aiki car' and run the b*****rs over. (just joking) Maybe?
Pete
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Old 04-13-2006, 10:44 AM   #648
CNYMike
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Jov Cabanag wrote:
i don't know why there are no aikido masters joined the UFC....

what is the reason behind why aikido masters even steven seagal don't want UFC?
Why should they? Getting ready for the ring/octagon/whatever is a lot of work, and order of magnitude beyond the intensity of training most people do. If you want to do it, it's worth it. If you don't, you don't.


Quote:
it was said in other post is that aikido is for multiple attackers?....
IMHO, "proof" of whether Aikido works in real life comes from testimonials of people who use it in real life. I found one such testimonial in this thread:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=590

If it works in real life, then there's no point in arguing it shouldn't, or posting "I dare you!" articles about why Aikidoka aren't in the UFC.

There's nothing wrong with the UFC, and we should respect the fighters who participate and commend their efforts. But it doesn't "prove" anything about real life, one way or the other. If it did, Aikido and other TMA would never work in real life. They do, so the UFC doesn't.
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Old 04-13-2006, 10:52 AM   #649
Richard Langridge
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Well put Michael, I agree entirely.
And to those people out there who think UFC=real, check out the rules: http://www.ufc.com/index.cfm?fa=LearnUFC.Rules
Funny how just about everything you might think about doing to defend against a BJJ grappler seems to have a rule against it... almost as though BJJ practitioners had an unfair advantage... hmm...
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Old 04-13-2006, 11:22 AM   #650
Raspado
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

UFC rules do not imply that they are set rules for BJJ students Richard. No one is questioning whether or not aikido is a good self defense art. IT IS NOT A FIGHTING ART. I can tell you from personal experience however, eye gouging, groin grabs--does not work if you are fighting a grappler and you have no ground experience. How many aikido people have challenged the Gracies? MANY! Who has come out on top?
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