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Old 03-30-2006, 09:33 AM   #601
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Hi Michael! Good to know your training wasn't wasted, and that a kokyunage can stand up to the rigours of true randori. Stay well, and safe, and fight hard!

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 03-30-2006, 03:44 PM   #602
Hagen Seibert
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

we should give a prize to post # 1000
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Old 03-31-2006, 03:45 PM   #603
gasman
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

whoa 25 pages of this stuff?

so one more piece of mind wont make much difference:

Dunno if the topicstarter is still reading but here comes:

I've worked as a doorman in Oslo for a good 5 years and in that time, using my aikido training as a basis for my conflict resolution strategies I have never been hit. In fact I have seldom been attacked, notably less than my fellow collegas - who in spite of being equally disinterested in fighting - have a more agressive attitude in both the situations leading up to the clash and in the clash itself.

From taking the neutral stance, verbally, mentally, physically: not (noticeably) lifting a guard - everything is geared towards defusing the situation. At the same time, I analyse the opponent and know how to take his balance and keeping safe.

I dont know why I am even writing in this thread, Ive heard so many MMA fanatics with no respect and no understanding boast their limited knowledge of what they call self defense. They say self defense but they actually mean fighting. Go figure.

I think a person with Joeysolas attitude would have his hands full every night on that job. I would not work with a Joeysola on my team at all.

So Joeysola. Good luck in your life, and get well soon.
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Old 04-01-2006, 12:47 AM   #604
Nafis Zahir
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Aren't we all forgetting something? Aikido is not a "fighting" art. So in that sense, maybe it wouldn't work in a "real" fight. But as someone who studies Aikido and once studied Kung Fu, I can tell you that in a real fight, it all depends on the practitioner. I know an Aikidoka who started studying BJJ on the side, and he said that it might work on one person, but not multiple attackers. I'va also worked out with other grappling styles and when I went into my old "horse stance" from Kung Fu, they couldn't take me down. Each style has its advantages and disadvantages. Aikido will work in self defense, but as with any art, that depends on the person. I do know of times when a street fighter beat someone who knew martial arts. I also know of times when people had to mix in something with the art they practiced in order to defend themselves. But I believe you should be true to your art and your art will be true to you. [b]

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Old 04-03-2006, 03:48 PM   #605
Raspado
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Your "horse stance" kept you up? Hogwash. You trained with bad grapplers.
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Old 04-04-2006, 01:37 AM   #606
Nafis Zahir
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Mike Geery wrote:
Your "horse stance" kept you up? Hogwash. You trained with bad grapplers.
I don't think so. It is a very strong stance and one that is not easily broken. The grapplers were not bad, but I did Kung Fu for some time. I mean, eventually someone probably could get me to move and maybe even down, but knowing aikido would not make that an easy task either.

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Old 04-04-2006, 09:35 AM   #607
Raspado
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

You know Steven Seagal thought that too. Judo Gene Labell taught him differently. So you are telling me that you would stay in this stance and that I couldn't take you down to the ground? Too bad you don't live closer so we could discuss this further. However, I know some grapplers in the Philly area that would probably be up for the challenge--Interested?
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Old 04-04-2006, 09:58 AM   #608
Nick Simpson
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Wouldnt you just kick him in the nuts?

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 04-04-2006, 10:51 AM   #609
GLWeeks
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Nick Simpson wrote:
Wouldnt you just kick him in the nuts?
Which is the ultimate martial art after all.....

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Old 04-04-2006, 10:53 AM   #610
merlynn
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Nick Simpson wrote:
Wouldnt you just kick him in the nuts?

tsk tsk mr simpson now that is very un -aiki like shame on you

some things are so dear and so precious you have to let them go
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Old 04-04-2006, 10:53 AM   #611
Raspado
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

That's what I'm thinking!
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Old 04-04-2006, 11:03 AM   #612
Dirk Hanss
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Karen Dodsworth wrote:
tsk tsk mr simpson now that is very un -aiki like shame on you
No Karen, you're wrong.
While kicking in the nuts does not sound aiki-like, just think the other way. The intension is not kicking in the nuts but making him move. If he does, you might be able to take him down withaout creating any pain or injury. If he doesn't move, it is his own decision, isn't it?

Or what do you think are all our atemi-exercises for? Yes if you are perfect, you do not need any atemi, all we others do

Best regards Dirk
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Old 04-04-2006, 12:34 PM   #613
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I have to side with Mike Geery on this one. Horse stance may be a strong stance, but it is also a very immobile stance. Not sure why you'd stay in an immobile position and let someone work his way around you. Hopefully it was an interim stance in a fluid situation that you adapted and moved with into the next posture to prevent a take down.

Horse stance is breakable, you just have to be at the right angle to uke in order to off balance him.

Not sure what this has to do with the thread, but we are getting one step closer to 1000...i'm watching
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Old 04-04-2006, 01:16 PM   #614
Raspado
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

My goal is to help it along to the big 1000
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Old 04-04-2006, 06:57 PM   #615
Perry Bell
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Mike Geery wrote:
You know Steven Seagal thought that too. Judo Gene Labell taught him differently. So you are telling me that you would stay in this stance and that I couldn't take you down to the ground? Too bad you don't live closer so we could discuss this further. However, I know some grapplers in the Philly area that would probably be up for the challenge--Interested?
Hey Mike

Sounds like someone has to proove him self
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Old 04-04-2006, 07:01 PM   #616
Dajo251
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Never bring aikido to a gun fight, it just wont work

Dan Hulley
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Old 04-04-2006, 09:43 PM   #617
Nafis Zahir
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

U guys are really taking this 2 far. What I was saying is that the BJJ guys are very good at taking people down quickly. The horse stance is not a stance that a BJJ guy is going to move easily. I wouldn't stand there and just let him keep on trying over and over again. Initially, he couldn't just come in and take me right down. My point to this is that in a real fight, the grappling guys, such as us (aikidoka) would not easily be taken down, and just like the BJJ guys, we know what to do once we are down. I am in Philly and would be interested in meeting the grapplers. But only on friendly terms and as a learning experience.

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Old 04-04-2006, 10:51 PM   #618
Dajo251
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

yeah it actually looks kind of intresting, the forum it self was a little harsh on the eyes but after looking into it, it seems cool, I could see egos being a big problem at the events though, even though they talk about leaving egos at the door

Dan Hulley
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Old 04-05-2006, 06:58 AM   #619
Richard Langridge
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Last night we were doing maai (distance) training with a tanto. This taught me a heck of a lot about the reactions/movements required in such a situation. Of course, I'm not saying I'm now ready to have a knife fight, but I honestly believe that with every day of aikido training I stand a better chance of protecting myself (and hopefully others) in any situation. My point is simply that to say "Aikido doesn't work in a fight" might be true if you're aiming to beat the hell out of anyone that gets in your way, but if you're looking to survive, and better yet control the situation, aikido will work perfectly.
First time post!
Richard
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Old 04-05-2006, 07:04 AM   #620
Steve Mullen
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

and a very insightfull one it was too richard. i couldn't agree more

"No matter your pretence, you are what you are and nothing more." - Kenshiro Abbe Shihan
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Old 04-05-2006, 09:09 AM   #621
Raspado
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Perry--no not for myself--but to enlighten my fellow martial artists. Nafis--if you had explained yourself originally like this it would have made more sense, however I still have to disagree with you. Perhaps "Horse Stance" doesn't lend itself to a takedown as easily as other stances, but I'm quite confident that an experienced bjj/wrestler/judoka would have little difficulty in breaking that position down. We all get caught up in the "strengths" of our own arts, and have a difficult time in seeing the weaknesses in them-especially if we've spent years working on the specific art. But--to truly open yourself to both the strengths and weakness of an art is one of the foundations (I believe) of a true martial artist. Bjj is not a good strategy for multiple opponents. It has it's weaknesses. One on one, though....different story.
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Old 04-05-2006, 02:28 PM   #622
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Nafis,

I think you'd find most grapplers to be great people. I actually avoided BJJ for years because of a percieved attitude that turned out not to be true at all.

What you will find is that they have very little tolerance for stuff that does not work, and very little tolerance for the sensei/instructor that can teach, but cannot do.

BJJ is not the end all and be all. Actually I just recieved a copy of Helio Gracie's new book which btw, is not all about ground fighting but more about self defense and stand up, looks very similar to traditional jijistu or aikido. While I am pro BJJ, I have raised an eyebrow at some of his techniques and need to ponder them more, because I think there are better ways of doing things than what he does, but again, that is a cursory look.

BJJers spend alot of their time practicing close up Ma'ai from the clinch and on in closer. There is a good reason for this.

Equally aikidoka spend alot of time practicing Ma'ai from further out at weapons range...also a good reason for this.

I personally find that there is a time and place for both, and find Aikido and BJJ to be very, very complementary as methodologies for developing martial skill.

I was working with some new grapplers tonight, the first thing I always do from stand up is move in with my arms out, if they are not decent fighter then I let them extend, grab and then I will work kotegaeshi, ikkyo, or sankyo. Why grapple if they are going to be that easy!

However, I find that experienced fighters won't do this, nor will they commit attacks fully, or off balance. So you need an entirely different skill set to deal with this.

To me you have two choices: 1. Don't engage. 2. You don't have a choice but to engage.

Number 2 means you don't have control of the situation, maybe you were ambushed, or overwhelmed by the attacker. You can know all the irimi/tenkan randori in the world and it won't help you if you don't learn to fight in close and on the ground.

Number 1, which is the aiki perspective, means that you have options available and are in control. You can position yourself to disengage, or to be strategic in your timing/distance to shutdown possible attacks (ma'ai). You might be able to talk and calm down the would be attacker, or respond appropriately with irimi/tenkan etc to avoid the attack. It also assumes weapons. Aikido is good stuff.

It seems that we get confused about fights and what they are. To me it is simple 1. you can avoid it or 2. you can't. also 1. you can see it and control it. 2. you can't.

Developing skills for both these areas are vital. That is why I think aikido and BJJ are both good methodologies for training for appropriate response!

I'd get with some decent BJJ grapplers and explore things with an open mind...it will expand you mind!
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Old 04-05-2006, 05:14 PM   #623
jpeluso
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Do symbol Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Hello all -

I would like to relate a personal experience, just a couple of days ago i was Rio De Janeiro, and while walking on the street, someone attempted to to rob me. They were unsuccessful for one reason, and the was because of my knowledge of how the body functions which i learned through the study of aikido. The way i was able to protect myself was the a variation of udi kimi nage ( pleas excuse my spelling , i don't know if its correct) basically i was able to control the attackers wrist and pressure under his elbow and discard him without harm to either of us.
So my friend i understand your concern that that aikido techniques are not obviously effective in reality, but we are learning much more that just set of movements. we learn how to control ourselves and our environment. Which is what all martial artist do in fact learn from any art so long as they are dedicated to themselves and better understanding
i hope your training has been as successful as mine

Quote:
wrote:
I have competed in both boxing and wrestling and I am now training in brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. I have watched many No Holds Barred competitions, like the UFC, and it is clear to me that Aikido and it's techniques and it's way of training do not prepare anyone to actually fight. I know that Aikido practitioners talk a lot about concepts like spirituality, harmony...etc. but I also hear people talk about how it is a pratical means of self defense. Aikido does not have practical striking techniques or any REAL matwork at all. I would like to know how Aikido can be used as self defense if you cannot grapple or strike.
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Old 04-05-2006, 11:05 PM   #624
johanlook
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

The way that I've been taught Aikido is to attack the opponent's center - so that at the moment of contact I should have control. At my dojo we train at all intensities building up to full speed and power for those that want it. We have 7 kick boxers training with us and 4 BJJers, who only joined up when they were convinced through full speed, full power attacks that Aikido could work for them. The least experienced of these has had 20 years exp in kick boxing and has explained that he never willingly gives his centre away when he punches or kicks. His centre is led so that he is slightly overextended. None of the beginners can move him when he doesn't want to be moved, but those with more experience with how to lead his centre do so with less and less effort until you get to my teachers who can lead all these guys easily. At first we thought we would be able to pull back, or "retrieve" our centre, but through exp. we learned that this is not possible with someone who is knows what they're doing.

I have seen one of my teachers get involved in an altercation with 4 big men and he seemed like he was just walking through them. There was no speed, visible power, or recoginizable technique but he made their strength seem impotent, by taking their centre away from them. My other teacher too has said that Aikido should be like walking and when I or others are to attack him we are always asked to attack in any way we want. He asks the same of us in randori.

I sincerely feel for people who enjoy but have lost faith in Aikido because they believe it doesn't work, because I know that it can work, not just once or on a lucky day, but just as much as I could depend on my skills on a mountain bike to get me down a hill. Over time I'm more confident that I will arrive with myself intact.
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Old 04-06-2006, 12:02 AM   #625
Nafis Zahir
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Mike Geery wrote:
Perry--no not for myself--but to enlighten my fellow martial artists. Nafis--if you had explained yourself originally like this it would have made more sense, however I still have to disagree with you. Perhaps "Horse Stance" doesn't lend itself to a takedown as easily as other stances, but I'm quite confident that an experienced bjj/wrestler/judoka would have little difficulty in breaking that position down. We all get caught up in the "strengths" of our own arts, and have a difficult time in seeing the weaknesses in them-especially if we've spent years working on the specific art. But--to truly open yourself to both the strengths and weakness of an art is one of the foundations (I believe) of a true martial artist. Bjj is not a good strategy for multiple opponents. It has it's weaknesses. One on one, though....different story.

Point well taken. But I must say that the last time I did this, it was against a wrestler. True, we did eventually end up on the ground, but breaking my stance took him some time. I studied a Northern style of Kung Fu, where the horse stance is lower than Southern styles or even Karate. That puts my center very low and add to that the fact that my legs were strong. This person was younger and stronger than me and a champion wrestler. Again, I'm not saying I couldn't be taken down, just not that easily. It was a friendly encounter, as I have respect for all of the martial arts. It's easy to control your center when you work with someone in your own art. But when you work with someone from another art, it chnages things and it becomes a challenge. I like working out with other styles, especially the grappling styles, which I find to be much more challenging.

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