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Old 01-16-2006, 11:47 PM   #526
Edwin Neal
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

aikido, and GJJ, came from traditional styles of jujutsu... osensei and other old timers had extensive jujutsu experience something that is woefully lacking in many aikido sensei today... its all about fighting... in all ranges and positions...

Edwin Neal


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Old 01-17-2006, 03:57 PM   #527
James Smithe
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Technically BJJ came from Kosen Judo. JUDO! Not Jujutsu. That gets me thinking why don't we call Aikido American Jujutsu or Shotokan people call it American Karate. Because you and me didn't invent it Gracies. People don't realize the Gracies are badasses you on the other hand are not.
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Old 01-17-2006, 03:59 PM   #528
James Smithe
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Don't you think 500 post is overdoing it? The first poster already took care of it but no you had to keep going. Did it ever occur to you he just wanted to mess with you guys?
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Old 01-17-2006, 04:25 PM   #529
deepsoup
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Edwin Neal wrote:
... its all about fighting...
Yours might be, mine ain't.
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Old 01-17-2006, 04:48 PM   #530
MattRice
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
James Smith wrote:
Technically BJJ came from Kosen Judo. JUDO! Not Jujutsu. That gets me thinking why don't we call Aikido American Jujutsu or Shotokan people call it American Karate. Because you and me didn't invent it Gracies. People don't realize the Gracies are badasses you on the other hand are not.
Unless Rickson Gracie's website is wrong, BJJ came from jiu-jitsu.

History of BJJ
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Old 01-17-2006, 05:00 PM   #531
MattRice
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

huh...Gracie doesn't mention that Maeda was a judoka as well...he was
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Old 01-17-2006, 05:09 PM   #532
James Smithe
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Unless Rickson Gracie's website is wrong, BJJ came from jiu-jitsu.
Yes it's wrong, They refuse to admit it's wrong. They are practioners of Kosen Judo. The Judo club around the corner is Kodokan Judo. Kosen Judo focuses on mat work. Kodokan focuses more on standup than mat work. Anyway this stuff isn't important this is an Aikido site.
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Old 01-18-2006, 04:12 AM   #533
Jorx
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Yeah but BJJ is long past the Judo and long past the Gracies.
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Old 01-20-2006, 06:00 AM   #534
Justin Gaar
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Seriously guys, this is a dead topic. Can we put it to rest and let it rest?

If you arrest a mime, do you have tell him he has the right to remain silent?
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Old 01-20-2006, 06:57 AM   #535
James Smithe
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

No let this thread never die. I still think you guys went overboard though.
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Old 01-20-2006, 11:01 AM   #536
Derek Gaudet
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
James Smith wrote:
That gets me thinking why don't we call Aikido American Jujutsu or Shotokan people call it American Karate.
Aikido American jujutsu ? I don't even want to guess why that was brought up. But there is a simple answer to the above... because they are not..

Kind Regards,
Derek Gaudet
Goshin Aikido
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Old 01-20-2006, 01:58 PM   #537
James Smithe
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Did you not read the last few posts geesh.
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Old 01-27-2006, 08:17 AM   #538
SBK_Doug
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
wrote:
The reason I started this thread was because I came here to look into trying another martial art. I checked out some classes and had a friend give me some lessons. I have found that Aikido has no practical application.

If you want to learn how to punch box. If you want to learn how to kick kickbox. If you want to learn how to grapple do Judo or wrestling. If you want to learn submissions do BJJ or submission fighting. I am saying that the strikes and grappling in Aikido have no application in a real fight. They only work if you are getting pushed around.

The reason Aikido striking and Grappling do not work is that there is no practical sparring to get rid of the worthless techniques. Why do you think that the most successful NHB competitors are athletes who compete in a martial sport.

I have seen two high ranking Aikido practitioners in the early UFC videos. The Aikido practitioners were slaughtered even though in both instances the Aikido practitioners had the weight advantage. What really amazed me is that they did not even react. How can an Aikido practitioner expect to defend against a quick strong jab, that even people with no martial arts experience can do, by taking large steps and with elaborate hand movements. The answer is a broken nose every time.

Just because Aikido has striking and grappling techniques does not mean that they work. It all depends on if they are practical and have been tested in actual NHB fights.

AND IN REPONSE TO THE GUY ABOVE. SAYING THAT YOU WOULD USE EYE GOUGES IS A KEY SIGN OF SOMEONE WHO CAN NOT FIGHT FIGHT OR GRAPPLE. IT IS SAD THAT WITH ALL OF THAT TRAINING THAT IS WHAT YOU RELY ON. TRUST ME IF YOU GOT IN A FIGHT WITH A GOOD GRAPPLER OF ANY SIZE YOU WILL END UP IN A POSITION ON THE GROUND WHERE YOU CAN NOT USE THE EYE GOUGE.

I think that if you are trully concerned about Aikido's effectiveness, then perhaps you should stick to one of your other martial art choices, practice it, perfect it, and help to evolve your art by thinking of every possible confrontation you might find yourself in. Then figure out how to use your art to get out of it. By the time you have figured out every pssible situation that you can get into and how to get out of them, you may find that you don't need any martial arts training at all.
Meditate on this, you should.....
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Old 01-27-2006, 11:11 AM   #539
Edwin Neal
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

oh yeah this thread still lives... to all the nay sayers... take my word or don't... I have no problem making my aikido work... people who think otherwise only show how narrow minded they are... these kind of people will never be effective no matter what art they study as their mind is too narrow to encompass the totality of conflict, and has no room for a broad strategy that addresses all the possible ways in which a situation may develop...

"I checked out some classes and had a friend give me some lessons. I have found that Aikido has no practical application"

HA... here i'll sell you a pill that will make you invincible...
i hope this guy comes back to post some more... it will be interesting to watch his growth or lack thereof...

Edwin Neal


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Old 01-27-2006, 11:52 AM   #540
Dajo251
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

well IMO the most effective thing in a fight....is avoiding the fight all together, is physical confrontation ever really necessary?

Dan Hulley
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Old 01-27-2006, 12:18 PM   #541
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
is physical confrontation ever really necessary?
Yes.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 01-27-2006, 01:12 PM   #542
Lyle Bogin
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I firmly side with Ron. We need to be careful not to blame the victim.
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Old 01-27-2006, 01:16 PM   #543
Dajo251
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Yes.

Best,
Ron
short to the point...damn you have changed my view point....sorry I am slightly sarcastic

Dan Hulley
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Old 01-27-2006, 02:56 PM   #544
Raspado
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Hey Edwin--try to make your aikido work on me. I'm not going to grab your wrist either. And James Smith, where do you think Kosen Judo comes from. You should read more history. The Gracie Way gives plenty of credit to Maeda.

Last edited by Raspado : 01-27-2006 at 02:59 PM.
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Old 01-27-2006, 03:09 PM   #545
Michael O'Brien
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Daniel Hulley wrote:
short to the point...damn you have changed my view point....sorry I am slightly sarcastic
LOL ... Ok Daniel ... You walk out of the mall to your car as you get to the side of your car 2 guys approach you, 1 from either side with the intent of not only robbing you but beating you into the concrete.

Do you let them pound your head into the ground until it explodes like a watermelon or do you choose to allow your Aikido training to effectively defend yourself?

I started Tae Kwon in the mid 80's and since my training I have had to defend myself 1 time in the last 20 years so that isn't a bad track record.

But ultimately, yes, there are times when no matter what you do physical conflict can not be avoided.

Mike
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Old 01-27-2006, 05:50 PM   #546
Dajo251
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Michael O'Brien wrote:
LOL ... Ok Daniel ... You walk out of the mall to your car as you get to the side of your car 2 guys approach you, 1 from either side with the intent of not only robbing you but beating you into the concrete.

Do you let them pound your head into the ground until it explodes like a watermelon or do you choose to allow your Aikido training to effectively defend yourself?

I started Tae Kwon in the mid 80's and since my training I have had to defend myself 1 time in the last 20 years so that isn't a bad track record.

But ultimately, yes, there are times when no matter what you do physical conflict can not be avoided.

Mike
alright you do make a very good point, no sarcasim this time

Dan Hulley
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Old 01-27-2006, 06:24 PM   #547
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Daniel Hulley wrote:
well IMO the most effective thing in a fight....is avoiding the fight all together, is physical confrontation ever really necessary?
Daniel,
I'm sure that you are a well meaning person, but this is the kind of statement which makes people think that Aikido folks are just a bunch of wishful thinking, naive folkst. Of course physical confrontation is necessary at times. And the knowledge of how to handle one is key to avoiding many of them.

Just the other day one of my Defensive Tactics students was in a parking lot when a guy zoomed around the corner and practically ran my students toes over. My student took issue with this manner of driving and the guy jammed the breaks on, flung open the car door and advanced in my student. this guy was clearly raging...

This particular student is quite well trained, more than capable of knocking this guy out. He saw the guy coming, simply stepped back into a relaxed but solid posture and watched the guy approaching. The guy realized that something was wrong when he got about ten feet away... regular people are not relaxed when faced with an on-coming threat, and he stopped short, uttered a quick "Sorry" and left. My student never said a word but there is no doubt in my mind that his ability to defend himself was crucial in his not needing to.

If you don't know how to defend yourself it's almost impossible to lose the fear that creates or permits aggression. The exception to this are those brave individuals who have engaged in civil protest in India with Ghandi, or in the Civil Rights movement with Dr.King. Their commitment to non-violence required a willingness to sacrifice their bodies, and in many cases their lives, required amazing courage... But what people don't remember was that their non-violence was still a form of physical confrontation. They were beaten, gassed, jailed, bitten by dogs, shot at, murdered, etc. Their commitment to non-violence did not result on a non-violent response on the part of the people they were "fighting", on the contrary, their actions evoked a violent response, which they knew it would, and the shock of seeing that violence got the attention of the world. But in many cases it wasn't their actions which accomplished the changes but the intervention of the Federal government via legislation (backed up by the might of the Federal Law Enforcement community), the sending of hundreds of FBI agents into those communitities to arrest the perpetrators of racial violence, the deployment of the Federal troops, forced rewriting of laws democraticall enacted in racists communities, etc.

It wasn't the non-violence itself which actually accomplished the change, it simply sparked the will of the national political powers to rectify the situation. If there had not been a Federal Governement with an armed FBI and an armed National Guard to intervene, it's doubtful whether the non-violent movement would have succeeded. Such a movement depends on there being a) a populace of good conscience which will react against the violence of repression and b) some political element which has the backing of physical force to enforce the changes being resisted by the folks in power.

Non-violenece of the type championed by King and Ghandi would not have worked in the Soviet Union under Stalin. There was no other power to back up any resistance to his policies and he had aboltuely no compunction about eliminating any opposition, or even hint of opposition, to his power. In the later Soviet Union under guys like Kruschev or Breshev, there were folks like Sharansky who formed a non-violent resistance but the only reason they didn't simply disappear in the night was that the Soviets were afraid of the US and its power. They were in competition with us and didn't wish to alienate foreign elements who might be pushed towards supporting us if they cracked down totally on the dissidents. Even then they jailed them, harrased them, put them in insane asylums and drugged them, etc.

An example of non-violent people without either a) or b) would be the Jews in Germany. No public of good conscience to protest against the actions taken by the government against them and no political / military power to protect them. The result, six million of them gone. Same thing in Ruanda, same thing in Bosnia, same thing in many places...

On an individual level there are the same factors operating. I'm not talking about the usual drunk guy at the bar or an incident of road rage... There are folks out there who are basically sociopathic individuals who look at normal human reluctance to use violence as a weakness. If you think you are going to "talk" your way out of a confrontaion with such an individual you are wrong. Language is just a tool of deception for these people. They are "hunting" and you are "prey". Like most predators, they will seek out the easiest prey, the weak, timid, the young, the females, etc. Your only defense is not to be one of them, unless you want to trust to pure dumb luck and hope you never meet one of these people.

The current international situation is a another example... there are conflicts in which diplomacy, long term aid, conflict resolution, etc can be effective. We never should have gone into Iraq... it was the wrong war, at the wrong time, for the wrong reasons... It has done exactly the opposite from its stated goal of making us "safer" from terrorists.

But there really is a war on and the folks we are fighting are very much like the "Terminator"; they will not stop, they will not hesitate, they will keep coming as long as they are able. These people fundamentally believe that God's Will compels them to fight and defeat us whether it takes one year or a hundred. They are absolutely willing to die to infllict harm on as many of us as possible. They are willing to plan four and five years out, practice their plans and correct mistakes, replace any personnel lost and try again. No amount of wishful thinking or dspilomatic efforts will make these folks go away. Only physical force will stop them from continuing in their efforts to kill as many of us as possible. Now we can use other non-violent means to alienate their supports and dry up their sources for recruits, there's plenty to do with aid and diplomatic means but the fundamental element of this conflict is force. If you don't kill these guys, they will kill us.

Now I happen to be a big believer in the part of O-Sensei's message that has to do with Love and Peace. I absolutely believe that if we had acted more using what I see as the principles of Aikido in our actions as a country we would not be in the position we are in. But no amount of wishful thinking and harmonius individualism at this point will resolve this conflict...

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
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Old 01-27-2006, 06:50 PM   #548
Dajo251
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

George,
I really dont know what to say to that, brilliantly written first of all, and i actually do agree on many levels, I realized that i need to think a little differently, I wasnt thinking quite on the same level there, I absolutly agree that its good to understand how to handle one self in a fight, and more often that not a fight isnt necessary at least in out current society. I also have a slightly different perspective on the matter somtimes, its very rare that someone is aggressive twords me. I have had a road rage experience where some one followed me into a parking lot and stepped out of their car weilding a tire iron, I stepped out of my truck the guy saw me and got back in his car and drove of, I am also 6'2 250 lbs, so I am an intimidating visage. I also know I can handle myself in a confrontation, I've had to on a few occasions. I dont know, I kinda lost track of my point a while back. I should have said in an ideal world physical confrontation would not be necessary....oh well...I know when I am wrong especially when faces with well written and well presented facts,

Dan Hulley
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Old 01-28-2006, 09:43 AM   #549
Edwin Neal
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

HA mike you didn't grab my wrist so my aikido worked ;-)

aikido as budo must encompass both In Yo (yin yang) from peaceful reconciliation to total destruction... each can be the proper method depending upon the circumstance...

Edwin Neal


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Old 01-28-2006, 04:02 PM   #550
CNYMike
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Mike Geery wrote:
Hey Edwin--try to make your aikido work on me. I'm not going to grab your wrist either ......
Theoreitcally, someone who's grounded in the principles doesn't need to have his (or her) wrist grabbed to do something to you. They SHOULD be able to work off everything. Granted, adapting Aikido to things you haven't formally trained against, like kickboxing combinations and certain types of takedowns, isn't the easiest thing in the world. But I don't think it's impossible. So if your hope for beating an Aikidoist is not to go for a wrist grab, well, I wouldn't bank on it. Just a thought.
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