Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-05-2006, 06:54 PM   #501
Neil Mick
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 225
Offline
Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
Now that Neil Mick is posting here I am sure it will last forever.
It's nice to be immortalized.

I'm sure that alien archeologists will be puzzling over my posts, 1000 years from now....
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2006, 10:18 PM   #502
Michael Neal
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 600
Offline
Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
It's nice to be immortalized.

I'm sure that alien archeologists will be puzzling over my posts, 1000 years from now....
indeed
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2006, 04:36 PM   #503
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I tend to agree with Jorgen's comments concerning knife attacks. If it is your time, well it is your time. People watch too much TV and base their ideas of what will happen on romantic ideas of battle and scenarios set up to entertain us.


I think Ron Tisdale also brings up some very good perspectives.

Study aikido for what it is. If you are really concerned with Scenarios based or reality based training, then you should work on those scenarios and develop strategies that work best for them. Don't waste your time studying aikido cause you will learn alot of principles that, while applicable won't necessarily develop your ability to be good at that "crap shoot" scenario.

Aikido to me is sort of like MBA school. You learn alot of practical theory, but understanding/demonstrating theory...and being able to employ it in the "real world" is a totally different ball game...one that requires experience in the real world...not necessarily the "school house" or dojo.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2006, 12:00 AM   #504
Edwin Neal
Dojo: Ronin
Location: Henderson, North Carolina
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 597
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

i have used ny aikido very well in fights both street and hard rolling with jujitsu player i find it somewhat more difficult against grapplers as they are usually well trained, but they are usally surprised when i crack a good nikkyo on them from the guard, or reverse them with a sankyo or ikkyo from the guard. The aikido i studied does have ground work and good strikes and kicks. I started in Yoshinkan while in Japan and i still like the backfist to the eyes or nose that Shioda demonstrates in his book, easy to use standing or on the ground. As for ground work chokes and arm bars and entanglements were covered by most of my teachers as they all had backgrounds in judo. Indeed most of my teachers had backgrounds in karate as well...

just had to keep this going we should try to get a challenge fight from this joey... whatsup wanna roll dude???

Edwin Neal


  Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2006, 05:30 PM   #505
Saji Jamakin
Dojo: Tomiki / YMCA
Location: Milwaukee
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 20
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
I.

Study aikido for what it is. If you are really concerned with Scenarios based or reality based training, then you should work on those scenarios and develop strategies that work best for them. Don't waste your time studying aikido cause you will learn alot of principles that, while applicable won't necessarily develop your ability to be good at that "crap shoot" scenario.

Aikido to me is sort of like MBA school. You learn alot of practical theory, but understanding/demonstrating theory...and being able to employ it in the "real world" is a totally different ball game...one that requires experience in the real world...not necessarily the "school house" or dojo.
I think this is true for all martial arts. I speak from a past prospective of training in escrima, Tae Kwon Do and Shaolin Kung Fu. You learn a lot of techniques as well as theories but for specific scenarios you have to develope your own strategies that you will feel comfortable doing in those scenarios...if they ever occur.
Plus I sometimes have to remember why chose Aikido to be the only martial art I will study and then teach to my son.

Quote:
In using [Aikido] to defend one's self, one is not to do to the attacker whatever one pleases. The presumption is that the attacker is not a bad person to whom anything can be done, but, rather, is a soul who has wandered from The Way. It is the duty of the Aikido practitioner to subdue the attacker without harming him, and to help the attacker back along the True Path.
This is the idea I try to strive for even as a shodokan practitioner. You do not have to win but immobilize with out pain or even neutralize.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2006, 11:11 AM   #506
Raspado
Dojo: Gracie Barra Tampa
Location: Tampa
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 54
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
In using [Aikido] to defend one's self, one is not to do to the attacker whatever one pleases. The presumption is that the attacker is not a bad person to whom anything can be done, but, rather, is a soul who has wandered from The Way. It is the duty of the Aikido practitioner to subdue the attacker without harming him, and to help the attacker back along the True Path.

This is great in theory but not in the "real world" To learn to put down the sword, one must first learn to use the sword. What will you do if the methods used (non-painful or damagin) as described above don't work. If you don't train realistically you have nothing to fall back on.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2006, 11:39 AM   #507
Edwin Neal
Dojo: Ronin
Location: Henderson, North Carolina
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 597
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

sometimes to get them back on the true path means you have to kill them... better luck in their next life...

Edwin Neal


  Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2006, 12:42 PM   #508
Raspado
Dojo: Gracie Barra Tampa
Location: Tampa
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 54
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

It seems harsh but true. Edwin--ikkyo, nikkyo and sankyo are not eclusive aikido techniques. They are in all martial arts, especially jujitsu. Yoshinkan is one of the more "hard-style" pre WWII aikido's that was more like Daito-ryu. Doesn't suprise me it worked in a fight. You probably trained realistically unlike 90% of all other aikido styles.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2006, 01:07 PM   #509
Luc X Saroufim
 
Luc X Saroufim's Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 135
Offline
Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

i personally was always fascinated by the spiritual aspects of Aikido, and O Sensei's teachings struck a chord with me. regardless of how effective it is in the real world, l love the overall message of Aikido and cannot imagine myself studying any other MA.

but you'll never see me go to a BJJ forum and post: "<thumbs down> BJJ is a bunch of gorillas wrestling on the floor..where's the universal harmony, fellas?"

does Aikido work in fight? baaah. i'll worry about that later. i have more important things to worry about, like my Ukemi.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2006, 01:18 PM   #510
Raspado
Dojo: Gracie Barra Tampa
Location: Tampa
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 54
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I will say that is something we don't enough of in bjj--the spiritual aspect of training. Although I listening to Carlos Gracie jr talk reminded me of many aikido speeches from Saotome Sensei.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2006, 01:29 PM   #511
Edwin Neal
Dojo: Ronin
Location: Henderson, North Carolina
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 597
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

thanks mike... i encountered many "aikido" techniques in other arts, but generally aikido schools (not all) do them better more focused more control. Had a shotokan guy showing me how to do nikkyo... i let him twist and do his thing then reversed and gave him the electric nikkyo from hell... he wanted me to teach him wrist locks then... Arnis esp as done by the late Remy Presas had really good wrist locks very aikidoish... and Bjj guys love them once theyve felt them ( please put your forearm across my throat hehe)... lucky me most all of my senseis fight hard and philosophize hard too... i aint afraid of ki balls but i know what strong ki feels like... Remy Presas and his senior instructors have it as does Royce gracie and some of his people... ki is not unique to aikido its in most MA... Tell me more about Tampa and your dojo i like to travel esp if the weathers nice and the dojos good...

Edwin Neal


  Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2006, 03:42 PM   #512
Raspado
Dojo: Gracie Barra Tampa
Location: Tampa
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 54
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Is that aikido people do them better because there are more of them practicing the wrist techniques? I have encounted one traditional Japanese jujitsu practicioner in my years of training who knew the move. I use it all the time in bjj. It's great fun. My buddies call it a weak technique, but I just smile and say yeah, but you tapped! : ) My dojo in Tampa is here: www.tampabjj.com Come visit us anytime. Everyone is very cool.

We have a great school, with a lot of good guys. One thing about training bjj that I did encounter is aikido is much more ego--in aikido believe it or not. I think the main reason is the imposed hierarchy in aikido and in bjj it's determined by skill. Don't get me wrong, there is respect for senior students even if they aren't tapping people often, but you know who knows what they're doing based on how they perform on the mat.

Aikido to me seems to ambigous regarding this. Example--4th dans who totally suck, but walk around like they own the world just because they are a yondan.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2006, 04:16 PM   #513
Edwin Neal
Dojo: Ronin
Location: Henderson, North Carolina
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 597
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

see my post under seagals thread .... my senseis dont do that we're so much better than the students... ask any of them they'll say they are just students too...
rank is overated its what you do not what belt you wear...

Edwin Neal


  Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2006, 05:28 PM   #514
tenshinaikidoka
 
tenshinaikidoka's Avatar
Dojo: Tri-City Aikido Richland, Wa.
Location: Pasco, Wa
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 103
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Aikido doesn't work in a fight????? Well, don't tel that to a guy who got his wrist snapped by me in a bar fight (he was attacking me on the job-PD). Nikkyo is a good technique!!!!!
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2006, 08:08 AM   #515
Luc X Saroufim
 
Luc X Saroufim's Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 135
Offline
Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Mike Geery wrote:
Is that aikido people do them better because there are more of them practicing the wrist techniques? I have encounted one traditional Japanese jujitsu practicioner in my years of training who knew the move. I use it all the time in bjj. It's great fun. My buddies call it a weak technique, but I just smile and say yeah, but you tapped! : ) My dojo in Tampa is here: www.tampabjj.com Come visit us anytime. Everyone is very cool.

We have a great school, with a lot of good guys. One thing about training bjj that I did encounter is aikido is much more ego--in aikido believe it or not. I think the main reason is the imposed hierarchy in aikido and in bjj it's determined by skill. Don't get me wrong, there is respect for senior students even if they aren't tapping people often, but you know who knows what they're doing based on how they perform on the mat.

Aikido to me seems to ambigous regarding this. Example--4th dans who totally suck, but walk around like they own the world just because they are a yondan.
meh, the ego thing is in all martial arts. it was a BJJ practitioner that posts "Aikido doesn't work in a fight" on an Aikido forum, and doesn't even give his real name. also, calling a foreign technique "weak" is not exactly selfless. let's just give everyone the benefit of the doubt. let's also remember that this is the internet, where everyone's a Shaolin master
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2006, 08:28 AM   #516
CNYMike
Dojo: Finger Lakes Aikido
Location: Cortland, NY
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 976
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
I love this thread, please let it never die
NO, KILL IT, KILL IT, KILL IT, PLLLLEEEAAAASSSEEEE!!!!!!!!!!
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2006, 10:54 AM   #517
Raspado
Dojo: Gracie Barra Tampa
Location: Tampa
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 54
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

No Shaolin master here, just my opinions--and you know what they say about those.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2006, 09:10 PM   #518
Kristian Miller-Karlsen
Dojo: Shin Sen Dojo Sydney
Location: Sydney
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 33
Australia
Offline
Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Hi Everyone,

I hope this is relevant to the topic:

I had an interesting encounter recently, which has changed my Aikido practice forever. I have, for years now, been looking for insights and differing points of view on various aspects of Aikido. I have, as is the case here, often looked outside the Aikido community for answers.

For a long while now the "Is my Aikido effective?" question has been raging in my mind. I was throwing back and forth the value of atemi in Aikido and, after reading a quote from osensei (which I remember reading in ‘Budo' by Stevens):

"The purpose of Aikido is to kill your opponent with a single Blow."

I knew I had to get an answer. I began to feel that I had to know how to seriously injure/kill someone so as to know how not to, so that I would have a choice in a life and death situation. I could not find a sensei anywhere with the ability to adequately explain this quote from osensei to me, or show that he/she even knew how. I believe that it is better to know how to kill someone and never have to do so than to need to be able to and not know how. Aikido in this day and age, in my humble opinion, does not seem to address this quote from osensei.

The answer I found to my question came in the form of a seminar, which an old training friend from my Aikido dojo encouraged me to take part in. It was a seminar on TFT or ‘Target Focus Training'. I'm not trying to promote this training, or sell it to anyone here. I just found it very interesting. I say so because it seemed to answer many of my queries.

Let me try and explain TFT. Put simply it is a method of selecting specific targets on the human body, and by striking them in specific ways, elicit a specific trauma/ spinal reflex in response. Essentially this means that you can hit a target and get a base minimum response/spinal reflex from the person you hit 100% of the time. This is trained in a similar way to which we train Aikido (uke-nage relationship) with each person practicing hitting the other at very slow speeds (so as not to hurt their training partner) while the person being hit practices giving the correct spinal reflex.

I found that this notion of striking/ getting a response fits with Aikido because, once you have struck your attacker and created a spinal reflex, you have then created a window through which you can apply any number of Aikido techniques. This to me is the meaning of atemi.

Has anyone else out there in the Aikido community attended a TFT seminar or something similar?

I hope this post/question makes sense. I humbly look forward to any and all responses from you, my peers.

Regards

Kristian
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2006, 02:15 AM   #519
neaikikai
Dojo: New England Aikikai
Location: Boston
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 14
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I truly believe this question is valid, but it is valid in all arts. It truly depends on the level of training that a student is receiving. I was a student of Kanai sensei. This was his biggest fear. It drove him nuts. Compromised attacks, too much cooperation between nage and uke. He always taught Aikido as a budo first. It was a serious self defense art to him. His techniques were based on serious confrontation. When he saw other Aikido with various sensei's just touching people and they would go flying it would really upset him. So the only thing I can tell you is our Aikido is very realistic and completely able to defend oneself in a real situation of defense. Remember Aikido is not about fighting, but it is reality that people do get attacked. If any of you know Kanai sensei's Aikido or his senior students you can see the combat aspect. So whoever doubts it is affective, I wish you had seen Kanai sensei. The power and the timing and the technique, and balance was just amazing.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2006, 02:25 AM   #520
Jorx
Dojo: Pärnu Aikidoclub Singitai
Location: Pärnu, Estonia
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 322
Estonia
Offline
Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Dear Kristian.
Is it too HARD to understand that this kind of thing IS a scam as fighting ALWAYS has variables you CAN NOT control that well to get the results they promise?

I cand deal with Aikido people talking about principles and how learning principles converts to different kinds of situations but every time I see someone taking seriously dead RBSD; pressure points or this TFT you speak about it totally flips me off...
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2006, 04:10 AM   #521
Suggo
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2
Australia
Offline
Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I'm not real sure that this hasn't already been posted in here but this is for Joey

http://www.youtube.com/w/Brazilian-j...page=1&t=t&f=b

  Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2006, 03:33 PM   #522
Kristian Miller-Karlsen
Dojo: Shin Sen Dojo Sydney
Location: Sydney
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 33
Australia
Offline
Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

G'day Everyone,

Michael, thanks for the response. Much appreciated.

Jorgen, I replied to your post on the 'Aikido and TFT' thread. I'm sorry if you have been 'flipped off' by my question. Actually Jorgen, are you taking the piss? Or what? Ahhh! Now I get it. You are joking around with me. That's cool.

Robert, That was the funniest clip I have seen for ages. Everyone at work thinks it is too. Thanks.

No offense to anyone here but is there anyone else out there with a serious response to my honest question?

Regards

Kristian.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2006, 04:50 PM   #523
Jorx
Dojo: Pärnu Aikidoclub Singitai
Location: Pärnu, Estonia
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 322
Estonia
Offline
Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

That's a great clip
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2006, 10:00 PM   #524
xuzen
 
xuzen's Avatar
Dojo: None at the moment - on hiatus
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 965
Malaysia
Offline
Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Robert Sugden wrote:
I'm not real sure that this hasn't already been posted in here but this is for Joey

http://www.youtube.com/w/Brazilian-j...page=1&t=t&f=b

Step aside AIKIDO.... there is a new kid in town. BJJ is the hippiest, trendiest, metro-sexual sport in town.

I can imagine in the near future, Jean Paul Gaultier willl have a line of parfume entitled "Jiujitsu for Homme".

Tommy Hilfieger will create its Tommy Gi and Tommy JJ belts for the man of new millenium.

Calvin Klein briefs and suspender for the discerning Jiujitsu athelete.

Vidal Sassoon haircare product that will hold your lock even in the most engaging postion.

Body Shop body lotion to keep your body smelling floral scent on and off the mat.

Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2006, 11:01 PM   #525
CNYMike
Dojo: Finger Lakes Aikido
Location: Cortland, NY
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 976
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Robert Sugden wrote:
I'm not real sure that this hasn't already been posted in here but this is for Joey

http://www.youtube.com/w/Brazilian-j...page=1&t=t&f=b

OMG! Talk about misinterpretation! What's that from? There's gotta be a scene where the BJJ guy finds out what they were thinking. Has to be priceless! That was funny. Thanks.

Last edited by CNYMike : 01-16-2006 at 11:01 PM. Reason: Addition
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Handmade Aikido Gifts - Handmade functional ceramic art with aikido themes



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What exactly is an independent dojo? David Yap General 64 11-14-2011 03:05 PM
failed? Leon Aman General 15 09-28-2006 06:15 AM
Aliveness in Martial Arts Video Clip Richard Langridge Open Discussions 60 08-10-2006 10:28 PM
Omoto-kyo Theology senshincenter Spiritual 77 12-04-2005 10:50 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:11 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate