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Old 12-30-2005, 03:05 AM   #476
xuzen
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I have absolutely no idea what else to add on to this thread except to contribute to its post count and in the process help to elevate this thread to its exalted status as the forum's longest surviving thread.

Last edited by xuzen : 12-30-2005 at 03:06 AM. Reason: typo

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Old 12-30-2005, 06:50 AM   #477
Thomas Milton
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

There is a man in San Diego with whom you might continue this debate in person, but at your own peril. I think the basic problem with Aikido is not the art but the students. Mean, angry people with a taste for violence generally carry the day. It is true that spirit trumps technique. And decent teachers weed out sociopathic students. The trauma of real fear and violence should not be underestimated. Why then does the Aikido community reprimand Chiba Sensei for "keepin it real"?

PEACE!

Tom
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Old 12-30-2005, 09:03 AM   #478
DH
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Thomas Milton wrote:
There is a man in San Diego with whom you might continue this debate in person, but at your own peril. I think the basic problem with Aikido is not the art but the students. Mean, angry people with a taste for violence generally carry the day. It is true that spirit trumps technique. And decent teachers weed out sociopathic students. The trauma of real fear and violence should not be underestimated. Why then does the Aikido community reprimand Chiba Sensei for "keepin it real"?

PEACE!

Tom
Keepin it real? Yeah right
What Chiba has done to some people who voluntarily offered themselves to recieve his techniques is dispicable. I have personally seen him cold cock his own guys and wreck the arm of a guy who could not train anymore that weekend. Two years later after almost breaking the elbow of one of my students with a ridiculous standing aikido arm bar at a seminar-which my guy was perfectly capable of reversing or not even receiving in the first place. He just agreed to work with Chiba and let him show him. I asked him to do it to me to "show me." I physically picked him up with my arm as the connection point and threw him on his ass. He laughed it off and called it Judo not Aikido. Whatever. As he walked away we all could see he was pissed and the SOB then did irimi as the next technique and started wrecking THAT guy. My guy had to stop training, we left at the break.... happily. His head student was very embarrased and offered our money back. We didn't take the offer as I liked the guy who owned the dojo very much. My guys arm was out of commision for almost a year.
Needless to say I don't think very highly of Chiba and sadly I have now met and spoken with several men with similar experiences. Sadder still is that some of his people seem to think this is great training and a wake up call for their technique. They don't even see the tacit agreement and abuse of it and themselves.
Keepin it real...whatever

Dan

Last edited by DH : 12-30-2005 at 09:06 AM.
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Old 12-30-2005, 09:12 AM   #479
Mike Sigman
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Thomas Milton wrote:
The trauma of real fear and violence should not be underestimated. Why then does the Aikido community reprimand Chiba Sensei for "keepin it real"?
As Dan noted, Chiba's reputation for "keepin it real" seems to be relegated to when someone offers him their body freely in a dojo. I've never met Chiba, but I've met far too many totally unrelated people with very bad "Chiba Stories" to think there's a conspiracy by outsiders. The problem seems to be about Chiba and not with a ton of unrelated-to-each-other outsiders. Many Chiba loyalists will even be upfront and acknowledge that the problem is Chiba... and then go on to say that they still like him, they learned a lot, yada, yada. Good for them... that's being honest. But laying Chiba's personality and deeds on "the Aikido community" is not the honest way to go, IMO.

Mike Sigman
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Old 12-30-2005, 10:12 AM   #480
DH
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I play that against my experiences in Kannai's dojo. He knew my background, never said anything to anyone, but when I would show up for the noon time class...all of a sudden the techniques would change. It was a habit when you were late (which I always was due to the traffic) to bow in on the right, by the desk, and wait for him to ackowledge you. I used to wait and tell my buddies watch what they are doing.... watch what happens.... Ooh and ahs; came from his guys as of a sudden.. he started doing more jujutsu based work (looked all like judo to me)
At any rate the guy was a consument gentleman and would flip his hair and laugh and occasionaly wink my way. I brought several people there to train, and except for one women who ran a class in his absence who was VERY formal, defensive and just plain weird... we always had fun.
He had one Spanish lady there a real brusier with a pretty face who I just adored... great balance and light at the same time.

Ahh to be young again

My point was there is no reason to ever be ungracious. Everyone is trying to be open and learn and the atmosphere can be intense yet friendly all at the same time. Interesting that my experiences in Koryu-while the waza is a far more intense- the atmosphere is far "less" formal and more jockular than any Aikido Dojo I have personally been in. It's more like training with wrestlers and MMA guys.
Wonder why that is?
cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 12-30-2005 at 10:15 AM.
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Old 12-31-2005, 02:59 AM   #481
Neil Mick
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote:
its exalted status as the forum's longest surviving thread.
Actually, I think the first Iraq thread holds that dubious honor. It was running on 52 pages, before it was shut down.
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Old 01-03-2006, 12:15 AM   #482
Mato-san
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I am curious about joeys "statement", definatly stired the hornets nest. Joey I am not sure were you grew up and all the rest of it, but were I come from the fights are actually "real" fights not NHB contests, I wonder how your bjj would fair in a knife attack? Usually thats the norm for a street fight these days, I have been attacked with weapons more than I have fists. Just my 2 cents.

Before you drive or steer your vehicle, you must first start the engine, release the brake and find gear!
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Old 01-03-2006, 04:00 PM   #483
Jorx
Dojo: Pärnu Aikidoclub Singitai
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I'm sure that joeys BJJ fares BETTER even if he has never ever done ONE knife disarm THAN aikido which has so far done only complex knife disarms on predetermined shomen and tsuki.

Funny that there are more guys like Chiba. "Keeping it real" by doing still the darn DEAD and patterned practice just even more hard. Breaking joints of non-resisting students. That's real yeah. I've seen guys like that around here too. Funny you see much less of them in any sport-centered gym/dojo.

I DO understand that NHB fight is not a "real" "street" "fight".

However I do not understand how there are still people out there that probably understand that they would get their asses kicked in ANY NHB fight by a live-sport-art practioner with moderate experience YET they chant that they could do well in a real fight. Or if they think that they could also do well in NHB style sparring why do they not try it.
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Old 01-03-2006, 04:05 PM   #484
Jorx
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Before the flamewar erupts - I am also sure that joeys BJJ with never ever practicing knife disarms would do WORSE than aikido done by athletic practicioner who has practiced also live sparring against a knife-replica against surprise attacks, defending and running away after being already "stabbed" etc etc.
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Old 01-03-2006, 10:48 PM   #485
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

How do you practice "running away after being already stabbed" without actually getting stabbed?

Interesting.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
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Old 01-04-2006, 03:05 AM   #486
Jorx
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

You DO get stabbed. If someone who wants to stab you - you will not see the knife. You will feel it. If you are lucky you are still capable of doing something after that and most reasonable thing is usually preventing repeated stabbings and then getting away.

If someone just want to show off with a knife or is arrogant enough to lunge at you like a beginning fencer then this isn't the "serious" "street" attack you are talking about or is it?
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Old 01-04-2006, 06:38 AM   #487
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Depends. Real attacks can vary and are unpredictable. The things you can probably count on:

you can't count on anything.

Jorgen is probably correct that if someone has a clue, and is not attacking in a fit of anger, or is not a hype, the best attack with a knife is one where you don't flash it around. But I don't have that many assassins after me. With or without knives. But we shouldn't count out the ingenuity of criminals casually. One of the things I say in Kenya was thieves working in pairs. One would walk next to you, casually tap your wrist and ask for your watch. There was another one behind you, and if you resisted without setting distance that one was the one with the knife. He'd stick you before you had a chance to finish the first guy. One reason aikido works somewhat well in that situation is that your first movement should be to evade, leave the space that is the current target area.

But really, its all a guessing game here on the net...

Best,
Ron (seen a lot of strange things)

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 01-04-2006, 08:16 AM   #488
Jorx
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Yes you can't count on anything.
That's why your training should be like that in my mind - minimize the useless "depending on situation" crap - no matter how detailed scenarios you will practice they will still be scenarios. Ergo maximize the improvement and training of "delivery system" (I hope you are familiar with the term).

And THAT in my mind is the final and devastating kick to the nuts to the street vs. sport training argument.

Also why I think Aikido (or any martial art with traditional - meaning 20the century beginning japanese) methods and roots as a "self defence" (hate that expression) is rather unoptimal - there is a big empty gap between theoretical-philosophical ideas and patterened/scenario/something is counted on practice.

.end of rant.
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Old 01-04-2006, 08:30 AM   #489
Michael Neal
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I love this thread, please let it never die
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Old 01-04-2006, 12:26 PM   #490
toyamabarnard
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Had to throw my 2c in on this....

I have studied a few different things in my life some were not practical for me (the high kicks in TKD for example I would never use in a "fight"). My Aikido, howerever, did involve some kicks, quite a few Atemi, some elbow strikes, some pressure points, throws, and a bit of grappling. While I would incorporate everything I know in to a street fight, I have to say Aikido definitely works and is my favorite because it's so natural. It can be used effectivly without turning my body in to iron or doing any little unnatural things.

My first trouble with using Aikido effectively was trying to "force" and "powerhouse" it the way I did with many other things. To use Aikido effectively and to turn it in to a VERY potent "weapon" you have to "think in Aikido" and lose your ego.
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Old 01-04-2006, 12:44 PM   #491
Neil Mick
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
I love this thread, please let it never die
troublemaker!
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Old 01-04-2006, 02:11 PM   #492
Raspado
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I have practiced aikido for about 12 years and also hold a purple belt in Brazilian JJ. You are right, Aikido as practiced by most does not work in a real fight. How are you going to reach my eye if I've got you on the ground in juji-gatame? The closest martially effectice aikido I've come across is that taught by Larry Reynosa out of Makoto dojo in Ventura, CA. www.makotodojo.com Every aikido person on this thread who talks about fighting has either not done it or cross trains in a more combative style besides aikido. How about "Well a grappler can't grab me". Just ask Gene Labelle about his not being able to grab Seagal.
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Old 01-04-2006, 02:36 PM   #493
Keith R Lee
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
I love this thread, please let it never die
No worries there. It's like a big, sweet honeycomb attracting all the new little bees who come to Aikido and Aikiweb.

Keith Lee
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Old 01-04-2006, 08:39 PM   #494
Michael Neal
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Now that Neil Mick is posting here I am sure it will last forever.

Last edited by Michael Neal : 01-04-2006 at 08:44 PM.
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Old 01-04-2006, 09:22 PM   #495
onekey
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

You should do more study before coming to an conclusion that Aikido isn't suffient in a fight, or there is no strikes.
Start by looking up the history....what could be taught and praticed safely. Aikido roots comes from Aiki Jujutsu Daitoryu ..which is hard to practice with atemi and have an uke to survive the brutal beating. This was taught to Samauri ...Royality.
Look up info on Shinra Saburo Minamot no Yoshimitsu , from the eleventh century, how he carefully studied the human anatomy , he would visit battle grounds and dissect and examine the bodies of the dead to determine what would be the most effective way to strike ,blows ,holds ,joint locks and pins.this is just general knowledge ...but you should study in dept for yourself and you may see more clearly. The things he learned thru vast study he incorporated into an martail art tought only to his family and over years expanded into Daitoryu. this was handed down in secrecy .
After the 16th century the art was known as o-tome-bujutsu or know as "inside the clan martail art" . the art was kept secret and taught to the samauri unti lthe fall Shogunate in 1868.
So I hope you study upon the Art of Aikido .
" I have giving you a seed it is up to you to water it"
GK
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Old 01-05-2006, 12:24 AM   #496
Jorx
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Keith Lee wrote:
No worries there. It's like a big, sweet honeycomb attracting all the new little bees who come to Aikido and Aikiweb.
OR you could say it's a big pile of s*it attracting all the flies.

However Gary... what you just said - most practioners know that AND so? It has absolutely no relevance in the world of today. Also we do not know exactly what training formats were used in that time and if we did it would probably not be suitable for most of us as we do not want to devote our whole lives to cold weapons and empty-handed combat.

So some people of TODAY have come up with different kind of methods and ideologys (some of which are surely reinvented old ones) that better suit the needs of a martial-art/self defence/whatever individual of TODAY.

And so in my opinion the whatever training format was used by all the mighty samurais who all could kick so much a*s or whatever training format was used in beginning of 20th century by some japanese just MIGHT be outdated/very context specific and have a LITTLE value now unless you are specifically drawn to the historical/philosophical context in which case one should admit it and quit rambling about street self defence, principals seen everywhere and such.
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Old 01-05-2006, 07:02 AM   #497
Mato-san
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Jorgen Matsi wrote:

If someone just want to show off with a knife or is arrogant enough to lunge at you like a beginning fencer then this isn't the "serious" "street" attack you are talking about or is it?
I was once in an encouter that started in a living room, and progressed to the kitchen area of the house.
When things began to go my way an individual went for the cutlery draw, and this was no domestic dispute. At that stage I had no training in weapons defence. And I always look back on it as a what could have been. My point is Knife attacks are not always planned attacks! Yeah, am I right!

Before you drive or steer your vehicle, you must first start the engine, release the brake and find gear!
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Old 01-05-2006, 12:36 PM   #498
James Davis
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Mathew McDowell wrote:
My point is Knife attacks are not always planned attacks! Yeah, am I right!
Yup. That's also true for attacks with rolling pins, broomsticks, tree branches and park benches!

"The only difference between Congress and drunken sailors is that drunken sailors spend their own money." -Tom Feeney, representative from Florida
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Old 01-05-2006, 02:02 PM   #499
early rub up
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
wrote:
I have competed in both boxing and wrestling and I am now training in brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. I have watched many No Holds Barred competitions, like the UFC, and it is clear to me that Aikido and it's techniques and it's way of training do not prepare anyone to actually fight. I know that Aikido practitioners talk a lot about concepts like spirituality, harmony...etc. but I also hear people talk about how it is a pratical means of self defense. Aikido does not have practical striking techniques or any REAL matwork at all. I would like to know how Aikido can be used as self defense if you cannot grapple or strike.
well ive benn doing aikido for 13years before that jujitsu i work in the security industry and i can asure you that aikido works iv had several incidents last year and came away unscathed i been in bar brawls road rage and work related incidents i allso know a young chap who has been trained by the gracies and is a very very strong guy and is allso into his boxing and i can tell you that he was more than impressed with my skills even when i gave him the advantage by having a hold on me before i started im only 5ft 9in and 12stone hes over 6ft and 14stone all his friends respect him because he is big and strong, guesse who he respects . ive allso put my mate who was a former captain in the s.a.s flat on his ass more than once the list goes on, i will however say that good training is the key im lucky that imho i received exellent training but there are many many clubs that are a complete waste of time but that goes for every style of martial art going. my club isnt traditional and deals more in street stuff we apply the principals in a street situation
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Old 01-05-2006, 02:41 PM   #500
Raspado
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Aikido technique works great in certain aspects of self defense, such as grabs, or holds--like in a bar situation, but if an aikido person squared off against a seasoned fighter be it boxer, muay thai, judo or Brazilian juijitsu I think you would find the aikidoka coming up on the short end of the stick. Aikido is not a fighting art. It is also not practiced as a fighting art.

Especially important to reaction in a fight is how you train. I would make a pretty accurate guess that most 90% aikidoka practice is not tailored to actually fighting encounters. The practice is tailored to singular-linear attacks. In a real fight, those technigues will not apply. Now does that mean that nikkyo doesn't work? No-- it works great. But tell me where nikkyo will come in when I fake a high attack, then quickly go to a single or double leg. Once you are on the ground, what defenses have you been taught to deal with that situation.

Maybe randori you think? I have seen randori practiced by both ASU and Federation shihan and I will tell you the students hesitate in coming into attack. One student will wait to attack while the other is being engaged. The only aikido people I see doing randori where everyone attacks at once, (front, back, side) are those taught under Steven Seagal's style ie..Larry Reynosa and Haroa Matsuoka.
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