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Old 11-07-2005, 09:10 PM   #426
Keith R Lee
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Mike Haftel wrote:
Stop argueing about this. It is pointless.
Err, I don't even think anyone is argueing any longer. Just having an interesting exchange of ideas about physical confrontations, budo, and combative sports. Nothing wrong with that. Not to mention that, in general, many of the opinions being shared are from those I respect and whose opinions I value. I really have a hard time seeing the problem with discussing Aikido from a self-defense/fighting aspect with other experienced martial artists.

#

Quote:
Rod McLaughlin wrote:
I have watched this thread for a long time and have finally decided to put my two bits in. I cannot say if Aikido would work in a fight but I will say that I work in a Correctional Facility and in my role as a member of the Emergency Response Team I have used my Aikido training several times to restrain or move offenders.

It's been said before but I will repeat it. It is not the Martial art it is the Martial artist.

An army of sheep led by a Lion will defeat an army of Lions led by a sheep.
I think Aikido is very well suited for use in situations with people who are going to offer only mild resistence. Great for correctional facilitites, arrests, psych wards etc. In fact, it's probably the ideal methodology for dealing with such people. Control without injury is the ideal goal for LEOs in my opinion.

As for the Martial Artist quote...I don't know if I particularly agree. I mean, I understand the underlying meaning of the quote and agree with it but a black belt in BJJ/Sambo/MMA is a world away from a black belt in Aikido or even Karate/TKD. Grappling and Live training/fighting is of the utmost importance, it just can't be denied. Everyone needs, at the least, a rough familiarity with it. Again, with the caveat of Kevin's excellent post earlier of as what one can define as combat. However, ONLY if the person's desire is to be combat effective with their combat training. If a person only desires personal refinement through physical training that I believe any Budo is the correct path.

Also Kevin, I saw somewhere else in the forums you were encouraging Sambo! Going to make a convert out of you yet!

Keith Lee
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Old 11-07-2005, 11:48 PM   #427
CNYMike
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
.... It's extremely difficult to be as precise during freeplay as one is in kata due to resistance and a host of other factors, but the goal is to achieve the precision of kata in randori/kumite/shiai afaic ....
My karate Sensei has a different take on that; that's where I got it from. One night, we were doing some attacking footwork, and I couldn't help but notice that when I built up a head of steam, I couldn't stop easily; I tended to stumble/skid a little. I asked sensei how you stopped and he said, "You're not supposed to. It's kumite."

And I heard some years ago that Soke Teuro Hayshi, whom our dojo was once affiliated with, separated hi students into two groups: Those who did kumite and those who did kata/theory. They may still be related, but there is still a wide gulf

Quote:
..... The sad thing is that the pressures of sparring encourages folks to abandon what they learn in kata and bunkai and resort to more primitive, intinctive responses or another art that they are more comfortable with ....
That's where practice sparring comes in -- it takes the pressure off so you can learn.

Quote:
..... Happens all the time in my dojo with folks who did other styles before coming to us and experiencing full resistance randori and end up being stabbed like a pincushion .....
Which seems to confirm my original point that it's something you have to learn how to do.

Quote:
Sadly, what they resort to is even less help. They return to what is known and safe, instead of attempting to apply what they are learning in the forms practice of the art they are currently sparring in, missing the entire point of practice.
Guro Kevin Seaman wouldn't let new students spar right away for jsut that reason, because he wanted them to use what he was teaching them and not what they already knew. Guro Andy has continued that policy. What you do in your dojo is your business, of course, but holding back the new people would seem to be a possible solution to that problem.

Quote:
Lol.
What's so funny?


Quote:
Don't resent anything Mike ....
Let me rephrase: I'm less than thrilled with your making comments about the teaching ability of people you have never met with no idea about what they are doing.

Quote:
what you cited above is what I meant about understanding how to teach the principles of freeplay. There are certain steps any teacher can go through to embed the core principles of effective sparring in their students. Your post above gave some of them.

The best teachers however begin at what you gave above and have a very precise and evolved method of feedback and measures built into these levels (e.g slower or low resistance practice building towards more resistance and speed) and are able to develop specialised drills and practices to build the weak areas that a student may have ....
Yes, you and Guro Andy seem to be on the same wavelength here. I should add I'm writing from the perspective of a student who's just been introduced to these ideas; I don't know where to go with it as an instructor. That may have lead to some confusion; my bad.

Quote:
.....If the textbook does not help you sufficiently meet your objectives then I say pack it away and write a new one instead of wasting time. Going back to your karate example - how many karate tourneys do you see where even black belts are not just flailing around trying to get off a lucky kick or punch and score points? All of the form, tactics, strategy and bunkai goes out the window as soon as the heat is on.
True, however, in fairness, it is worth remembering that Japanese systems work towards mushin no shin, "mind of no mind," where you don't think about the technique, it just sort of happens somehow. It's 180 degrees from Guro Andy's approach to try and cultivate presence of mind while sparring, but if another approach leads to mushin no shin, then who are we to say it's wrong? Not me.
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Old 11-08-2005, 01:38 PM   #428
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Keith, I wouldn't necesarily say that an aikido black belt was a world away from a BJJ/MMA, SAMBO kinda guy. I know where you are coming from. I'd say YES to many of the black belts in aikido I know, but you have to be careful about the situation in which you are applying it.

Aikido is more concerned with the study of Budo than training efficient fighters, so YES, given a high stress, all out fight, Aikido probably does not necessarily make you very well rounded for this. However, I have found that my BJJ trained guys don't deal well with transitioning from no use of force to use of force very well. They tend to presuppose that the fight is going to occur.

I value my aikido background as it does very well at keeping an opponent at bay and even preventing a serious fight from occuring. It is amazing how I have found the aikido skills to keep things from getting out of hand.

I am sure the Correctional officer above has had similar experiences.

Two different skill sets if you ask me, both very, very valuable...which is why I study both!
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Old 11-08-2005, 11:20 PM   #429
Pierre Rood
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Aikido will work fantasticly in a fight.

I have had a couple of fights when I was young, Judo made it a win in a simple manner (and harmless for the offenders, they just gave up on the threat of a broken arm). Fights were total automatically, no thinking involved, just acting intuitively.

But once I got a conflict with someone coming in with a baseball bat. I managed to get in my car and fled the scene. I was convinced of getting killed when I hadn't been out fast. Since I learned how Aikido works, and read about O Sensei's demonstrations I am sure I would have dealt with the bat quite easily if I had a level of say 1st or 2nd kyu. The bokken training, irimi etc. train your instincts.

I think the secret of Aikido is the blending of the natural fighting instinct of a person with the Aikido techniques training mind and body. It is very much the question if other MA's are able to operate outside of it's own vocabulary with any effectiveness.

A Kendo specialist once said that when in WWII he had to kill someone by hand there were no techniques involved, just hitting as fast and hard as possible with anything at hand or bare hand. I believe O Sensei found a solution for this and demonstrated this during his pre war demonstrations of MA supremacy of his MA.

Last edited by Pierre Rood : 11-08-2005 at 11:23 PM.
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Old 11-09-2005, 12:06 AM   #430
Keith R Lee
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
Keith, I wouldn't necesarily say that an aikido black belt was a world away from a BJJ/MMA, SAMBO kinda guy. I know where you are coming from. I'd say YES to many of the black belts in aikido I know, but you have to be careful about the situation in which you are applying it.

Aikido is more concerned with the study of Budo than training efficient fighters, so YES, given a high stress, all out fight, Aikido probably does not necessarily make you very well rounded for this. However, I have found that my BJJ trained guys don't deal well with transitioning from no use of force to use of force very well. They tend to presuppose that the fight is going to occur.
Agreed. I was definitely making a general statement. There are, of course, exceptions to the rule. However, you and many other experienced members of the board know what I am talking about. I think Aikido is excellent for dealing with that moment just before violence, or even diffusing violence. It is also perfect for dealing with the mildly resistant person.

For myself, the key has been to study Aikido and other arts, as you said. Aikido and Sambo seem to compliment each other to me. However, as they are the arts I have spent the most time on, I am biased to a certain degree.

As a side note: tonight in Sambo we worked alot on the Harness. It seems to be a pretty popular move with alot of the SBG guys right now. The best I could find is reviews for the move here:

http://www.onedragon.com/prod_sfl_jj...imonials.shtml

We're planning on working on it for the next 2 months. I'll be damned if it isn't changing my game. Neat position.

Keith Lee
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Old 11-09-2005, 02:57 PM   #431
Dan Carreau
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Hello

Well to be blunt if people are asking if it works in a real fight then perhaps they are in it for the wrong reason.

I have been with Kevin Blok for about five years and the DND from 1979-1981.

To prove you can fight is not an admirable accomplishment.

To prove you can use a technique to redirect a persons energy is what is needed.

The physical part of Aikidio is a very very small part of the whole picture.

Try to master the whole concept then ask the same question to yourself once again.
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Old 11-10-2005, 09:21 AM   #432
Ed Shockley
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

This is specifically a response to Emma Mason. I'm not computer savvy so I hope it gets to the right place. Aikido will work against an abusive ex-husband as either an "itsu" or a "do." You can embrace the budo spirit of martial techniques ('itsu') and when he grabs, very likely surprise him with a broken elbow or wrist. You also could jab your car keys in his eyes, mace him, etc. I am not being snide. The idea of "itsu", as I'm sure you know, is practicing tactics that injure. In my dojo, and most that I visit, the instructors demonstrate routinely where the broken joint is and how aikido alters the motion to practice forgiveness. If you practice the "do" of Aikido then it will also keep you safe. The confidence, calm, and clarity of mind that comes from ten thousand throws will make you better able to avoid provoking the insane man who you described, better able to avoid being trapped in a confrontation with him, better able to unnerve him (abusers are cowards and feed on fear) and better able to forgive him. I often train with my seven year old because I teach an early morning Sunday class that sometimes is empty. I feel no anger or fear as he tries with all his might to hit me with jo's, kens, fists, kicks. I still position him for his soft ukemi and we both are safe. Obviously his reflexes make this possible. When we train enough then the alcoholic ex-husband will be the same as my seven year old. This is why I am in a dojo six days per week. It is not the "itsu" of hurting an attacker but the "do" of forgiving a fool.

Best of luck to you and remember that every technique is decided in the first instant.

PS: make sure that many people in your Aikido community know of this man's madness. The more people who are aware of his face and habits then the less likely you will ever have to face him in isolation.
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Old 11-10-2005, 08:56 PM   #433
pezalinski
 
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Unhappy Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Aikido works just fine in a fight -- unless your goal is to hurt the other person... and if so, then you're not doing aikido (no ai-ki), though you may still be fighting.


A little danger is a knowledge thing...

"Helping the planet make an impact on people, since 1985"
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Old 11-10-2005, 11:27 PM   #434
Ulises Garcia
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Peter Zalinski wrote:
Aikido works just fine in a fight -- unless your goal is to hurt the other person... and if so, then you're not doing aikido (no ai-ki), though you may still be fighting.
Hello Peter, everybody,

It's refreshing reading someone who values the SD side of Aikido.

I'm about to start my Aikido training, but I would definitely be doing it for the martial aspect of it. However, I have read so many experienced aikidoka here who wouldn't recommend it for self defense, that I have felt so turned off on the idea. I would take Daito-Ryu (it seems to be less bashed at), but there is absolutely nothing here in Mexicali. I don't mean to go down the street picking fights, but I sure expect Aikido (as an MA) to have some value IF there is no way I can take flight and my only choice is to disable the enemy(ies). A couple of nights ago, some person whom I had never met, came looking for me AT MY HOUSE (how he learned where I live, I can only guess). The guy was blind furious, and as courteously and politely as I tried to speak to him, he was hellbent on challenging me to a fight to settle the score. ALL BECAUSE OF A RUMOR!! Said rumor implied that I did something very harmful to a person he cares very much about, but he didn't listen to her either (the three of us were arguing in front of my house). I had no desire to fight, for things would have been quite nasty (I was more than ready: steel toed shoes, iron hard fists, Karate training. However, he would've been back with friends and probably weapons). Fortunately, he desisted after a while. Thing is, sometimes you cannot reason with some people. There is a time in which you have to count on the martial aspect. I really hope Aikido can provide that (hey, it did for O-Sensei). I wish I had encouraged him to attack me, AND that I had been able to smoothly and peacefully put him in a immovilizing hold face-down on the ground, so that he could have listened to reason (and cooled down).

So, I have heard too that you get from Aikido what you take with you. Does that mean that if I'm looking for the martial aspect of it (definitely -do, but perhaps with a little more -jutsu flavor), I'll still be able to get it, even if the dojo I find is Aiki-fruity? This is an honest question...

-U-

"He who dies with the most toys...still dies."
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Old 11-11-2005, 12:08 AM   #435
xuzen
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Peter Zalinski wrote:
Aikido works just fine in a fight -- unless your goal is to hurt the other person... and if so, then you're not doing aikido (no ai-ki), though you may still be fighting.
Peter, love your post. Short and concise yet carries much meaning. Many equate altercation with slug-o-rama, i.e., standing toe to toe in preparation for a slug fest. In his book (aikido shugyo), Kancho Shioda said no matter how good you are, if you are to slug it out as in a boxing type match (for the sake of argument), you will eventually be defeated.

Aikido and many budo type arts training allows one to deal with possible altercation in a minimalist way and get the hell out of harm's way.

I do not recall, any of the aikido teacher before us ever said aikido is a fighting art per se. But plenty have said that aikido enable harmony even in confrontation.

OK, aiki-fruitie mood OFF. Boon is back to being his usual mean Yoshi-Ogre (TM) persona again.

Boon aka Yoshi-Ogre (TM)

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 11-11-2005, 12:42 AM   #436
PeterR
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Ulises Garcia wrote:
I'm about to start my Aikido training, but I would definitely be doing it for the martial aspect of it. However, I have read so many experienced aikidoka here who wouldn't recommend it for self defense, that I have felt so turned off on the idea. I would take Daito-Ryu (it seems to be less bashed at), but there is absolutely nothing here in Mexicali.
From where I sit Daito-ryu is no more capable preparing you for a fight as certain styles of Aikido. It really depends on you and who is teaching you. Strong Karate background - I think you could make good use of some good Aikido training and you should be more than capable of deciding if a particular Aikido dojo is providing the training you want.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 11-11-2005, 10:19 AM   #437
CNYMike
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Ulises Garcia wrote:
..... I'm about to start my Aikido training, but I would definitely be doing it for the martial aspect of it. However, I have read so many experienced aikidoka here who wouldn't recommend it for self defense, that I have felt so turned off on the idea ....
Hi, Ulises,

Yes, that is a good question and it does depend on whom you ask. There seem to be two schools of thought: One that Aikido is absolutely capable of handling everything you throw at it; the other that, as you say, you shouldn't even think of using it for self defense.

That helps.

My personal feeling is that reality should be somewhere in between the two extremes: You may not want this if you plan on doing cage fights, but for many encounters on the street, it could work. Certainly whenever a thread like this pops up, a bunch of people surface and say "Yes, it works!" That's the last word on it as far as I'm concerned. And it's worth remembering that some law enforcement agencies use or draw on Aikido for restraining suspects.


Quote:
... I have heard too that you get from Aikido what you take with you. Does that mean that if I'm looking for the martial aspect of it (definitely -do, but perhaps with a little more -jutsu flavor), I'll still be able to get it, even if the dojo I find is Aiki-fruity? This is an honest question...

-U-
I suppose so, but you'd have to appraoch it with an open mind and make a commitment to stick with the dojo for at least a couple of years. Think of the skills you already have as tools, and Aikido gives you more tools for the tool box. If they're Aiki-furity ..... well, if you drop out because of that, you'll never know what you could have got out of it if you stayed.

Hope this helps; sorry if it doesn't.
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Old 11-15-2005, 06:17 AM   #438
Aikido10
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Keith Lee wrote:

I think Aikido is very well suited for use in situations with people who are going to offer only mild resistence. Great for correctional facilitites, arrests, psych wards etc. In fact, it's probably the ideal methodology for dealing with such people. Control without injury is the ideal goal for LEOs in my opinion.

As for the Martial Artist quote...I don't know if I particularly agree. I mean, I understand the underlying meaning of the quote and agree with it but a black belt in BJJ/Sambo/MMA is a world away from a black belt in Aikido or even Karate/TKD. Grappling and Live training/fighting is of the utmost importance, it just can't be denied. Everyone needs, at the least, a rough familiarity with it. Again, with the caveat of Kevin's excellent post earlier of as what one can define as combat. However, ONLY if the person's desire is to be combat effective with their combat training. If a person only desires personal refinement through physical training that I believe any Budo is the correct path.

Also Kevin, I saw somewhere else in the forums you were encouraging Sambo! Going to make a convert out of you yet!
Wow...I work in Law Enforcment and I can say that the people who decide to fight don't offer "mild resistance" they fight like thier lives depend on it. The practice of Aikido has helped me more times than I can count. I have used it to exact compliance, restrain, and end fights. Granted controlling tecniques will be easier to apply with a "mildly resisting" subject, but in my line of work you treat everyone like it is going to be your last fight. becuse when you get complacent you get dead real quick. So knowing what I know I will say that Aikido works for me in Fights. Even against Resisting people, becuse everybody I deal with is resisting. oh well just my two cents worth.
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Old 11-15-2005, 06:52 AM   #439
Nick Simpson
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

He was talking about not beating up patients in mental health instituitions, not taking down resisting perps

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 11-15-2005, 07:31 AM   #440
Tim Gerrard
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Nick Simpson wrote:
not taking down resisting perps
And who do you think you are, Sheriff John Bunell?

"Jail, that's where the bad guys go"

Aikido doesn't work? My Aikido works, what on earth are you practicing?!
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Old 11-15-2005, 12:10 PM   #441
Nick Simpson
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Judge Dredd actually, you filthy perp!

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 12-21-2005, 11:39 AM   #442
justinmaceachern
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Re: Aikido does work in a fight

Look I know a lot of people out there dont think that aikido is practicle, but they are wrong. All I here mu tei and ju jitsu are the best for fighting stlye events such as ufc. My reply, How many times are you attacked By more then one person in ufc? Never
I am a aikido practioner and i stand by my art in saying:
Any boxer or stand up martail artes is always welcome to come at me in a fight and we will see what happens. Also i am not just one sided either, I also study Gracie Style Ju Jitsu, and taekwondo.
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Old 12-21-2005, 02:14 PM   #443
roosvelt
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Re: Aikido does work in a fight

Quote:
Justin MacEachern wrote:
Look I know a lot of people out there dont think that aikido is practicle, but they are wrong. All I here mu tei and ju jitsu are the best for fighting stlye events such as ufc. My reply, How many times are you attacked By more then one person in ufc?
"I have been watching aikido techniques at the Nippon Budokan17 but I find that those demonstrating do soft techniques. They won't work in a real fighting situation. Their partners are only taking falls for them. It is as if they are practicing taking falls. If your partner takes a beautiful fall, it makes your techniques look good."

http://www.daito-ryu.org/tota5.html
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Old 12-21-2005, 02:58 PM   #444
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Any boxer or stand up martail artes is always welcome to come at me in a fight and we will see what happens.
I'd love to see the video. I think you'd find that in the end that what you see on tape would pretty much look like classical UFC type stuff if there is any skill involved. Surely aikido skills are relevant and useful, but in my experiences when things start flying without rules, or limited rules fighting strategies pretty much dictate that things will end up against a wall in the clinch.

You might be able to irimi tenkan and take down a few guys for a while, hopefully long enough to get to the door, but I have never seen any "real" video footage of multiple opponent randori in which the one guy against many have walked away unscathed dusting himself off calmly with "many" dudes laying on the ground.

If anyone can ever produce video footage, then I'd be more than happy to change my opinion, but I have never seen it.

Yes, UFC rules do create a set of parameters and conditions where you can assume away many things and use them to your advantage. I think though you'd find in a multiple opponent situaiton though, that even the best UFC fighters would imobilize on fighter, irimi/tenkan, "stack" his other opponents in a line and make for the door. It is not rocket science and aikido does not have the market on this strategy...it is just that these guys are sport fighters and that is what we see on tape.

From the few UFC caliber guys I have worked with I have not found them to be oblivous, ignorant, or to lack awareness of how to properly handle multiple opponent situations. quite frankly I think they have a more realistic view of them than most aikidoka do!
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Old 12-21-2005, 03:22 PM   #445
bratzo_barrena
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Being an Aikidoka my self, it's so sad to recognize that there is so many aikidokas with the stupid idea that Aikido is not for self-defense, when in fact its main purpose IS self-defense, but for that it must be practiced properly.
These Aikidokas (the ones who state is not for self-defense) usually base this argument in the fact that THEY don't practice it for self-defense (usually they have "higher" reasons to practice), thus the way they excute techniques is just an Aikido-like dance, with no martial art/self-defense aspect in it.
They confuse THEIR reasons to train Aikido, with the REAL REASON why aikido was created, and that REASON IS self-defense. That Aikido can offer you MORE than self-defense, shouldn't mean that you leave the self-defense aspect out and just aim for the 'other aspects' of aikido.
Just think little, any one could train BJJ, Sambo, Karate, Box,or other martial art, not for self-defense, but for fun, for exercise, for illumination (?) or for any other reason, and with that way of thinking he or she can began to train the techniques in a wrong fashion and make them ineffective. And justify the ineffectiveness of what they do with saying that these martial arts are not for self-defense, because they don't parctice them for that. That would be wrong, right?
So, the personal reason why anyone practices Aikido or other martial art, should not be confused with the REASON any martial art was created, and that reason is self-defense.
Aikido properly trained IS a self-defense martial art. If you take that off Aikido, you're not doing Aikido anymore. You are just dancing with Aikido-like movements.

Bratzo Barrena
Instructor Aikido Goshin Dojo
Doral, FL
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Old 12-21-2005, 04:03 PM   #446
Neil Mick
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 225
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Is this silly thread still going on?

Here: lemme settle it for everyone: Ikeda Sensei had it right, when he said: "Aikido works. YOUR Aikido may not."

Now, can we put this aside and start arguing about important stuff, like politics??
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Old 12-21-2005, 05:39 PM   #447
Mike Fugate
Dojo: The School of Two Styles
Location: Ohio
Join Date: Sep 2005
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I do believe this is a topic that will never end. I do however agree with the statement " Aikido works. YOURS may not". Aikido is a good style for defense and VERY effective in CERTAIN stituations. Alot of time it will work great, but there are time and situations where it isnt going to be the best solution to the problem. It isnt a complete system by any means, nor should be confused as an inferrior art because of this. Are Karate, TKD, Judo, JuJitsu and Boxing complete systems? NO, and no one would argue that either, but does that mean we are going to stop studying take downs in Judo, or strikes in Boxing? Listen all I am saying Aikido has something for everyone, but not EVERYTHING. If you want a complete systeme look at O-Mei.

"When you cease to strive to understand, then you will know without understanding." -- Caine
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Old 12-22-2005, 01:46 AM   #448
Upyu
Dojo: Aunkai, Tokyo
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 591
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Mike Fugate wrote:
If you want a complete systeme look at O-Mei.
Was that a joke??
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Old 12-22-2005, 06:12 AM   #449
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Mike Fugate wrote:
If you want a complete systeme look at O-Mei.
Mike, that's like saying, "If you want a complete system, look at Georgia martial arts." There are many totally different martial styles and systems that are from the O-Mei (Er-mei) area. Some hard, some soft, many totally unrelated to each other. O-Mei styles generally claim to be part Shaolin Buddhist derived and part Taoist derived.... i.e., they like to claim they have the best of both worlds. Besides, a "complete system" means that there are empty-hand skills, the 18-weapons skills, conditioning methods, etc.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 12-22-2005, 09:20 AM   #450
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,371
Germany
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I don't believe there is any complete systems. Those that study martial arts for situational training such as military, police, and even self defense reasons must focus on those areas that are high risk or high probability in order to have the "90%" solution. There are simply too many variables, what ifs, and situations to cover.

I don't really understand if someone has done a proper un-emotionally based risk assessment on their needs for self defense why they would waste their time with aikido if self defense was very high on their list of reasons for studying. there is simply too many things we do in aikido that do not make you very good or effective in this area.

That is not to say that there is no value to be gained from aikido in this area...just that it is not the most efficient methodology to get there. I personally don't feel that ANY empty hand arts are that good in this area.

Also, can anyone point me to literature or quotations in which O'sensei said that "self defense" was a primary goal of aikido? I cannot recall seeing this anywhere.
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