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Old 09-29-2005, 07:08 AM   #326
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Nice post Kevin.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 09-29-2005, 08:09 AM   #327
SeiserL
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
Lynn, I know I am not telling you anthing you don't know about already though, but thought it was a good point to discuss or clarify these things.
Kevin,
Total agreement. Discussion and clarification refines a topic like training with genuine and honest intent and intensity refines a technique. That's what I love about these threads and forums, my home dojo and mat, and cross-training with others.

IMHO, it isn't whether there is violence in the world, its how close in proximity it is to your street. It isn't whether Aikido works in a fight, its can you get out of the way and let it work for you.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 09-29-2005, 09:18 PM   #328
elastoman
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Hi all, this is my first post
Talking about real figths, as everybody sayd before, jiu jitsu is as real as a dream world
Or you think that, in a real figth, life or death situation you can say to the guy :"finger in the eye, brake fingers, kick in the eggs are against the rules" ??????
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Old 09-30-2005, 12:06 AM   #329
Pierre Rood
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Exclamation Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Patrick Crane wrote:
I blame Hollywood, male machismo, and unresolved "playground bully" issues for this whole thread...Funny, I haven't been in a "fight" since I was 12...So what really is a "street" fight?...For men, for the most part, a "street" fight is a figment of our imagination
Congratulations, you live in paradise no doubt.

But here on friday and saturday late night in the city centers you are not safe as a man alone, drunk youth are looking for trouble and you have the chance getting beaten up or worse. Just for the kick of it. Now and then some one gets killed during these 'group events'.

As a women alone, it is not safe any day of the week when on the street late at night. Even in our village we try to make sure our daughter is never alone when coming home from a night out. Even in a street away for the bars you can hit upon someone, mostly drunk, possible horny, coming from there.
In the city nearby you are as a woman sure to get harassed if not molested in the weekend nights. Certain groups of youth are very dangerous to bump into.


So there is your street scene. Now why is it important whether Aikido really works or not?

Because some (not myself) rely on a martial art for self defence and security. And then Aikido would be a dangerous lie if it would not work.

Since I noticed the enormous insecurity by aikidoka's on this issue I believe a lot of them train in a non-effective style for real fighting.

For the safety of those seeking a street effective-Aikido this aspect of the style has to be known to the practitioners.

Last edited by Pierre Rood : 09-30-2005 at 12:09 AM.
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Old 09-30-2005, 01:31 AM   #330
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
James Cagner wrote:
Hi all, this is my first post
Talking about real figths, as everybody sayd before, jiu jitsu is as real as a dream world
Or you think that, in a real figth, life or death situation you can say to the guy :"finger in the eye, brake fingers, kick in the eggs are against the rules" ??????
Do you mean to say that a dojo isn't ever like a "real-life" situation? I agree, but would also say that just as no two "real-life" situations are exactly alike, but you can learn from one to be better prepared for another, so too can one learn how to better handle yourself against a malicious attack from a very sincere benevolent one. I've trained only twice at the local Tomiki-style dojo, but have found the resistance (very lightly applied to me as i am a beginner there) adds a very real dimension to the techniques. Some dojos within any given style are better than others on any given principle of martial training...I'm probably doing a good job of over-stating the obvious so i'll quit now. Coincidentally, i'd like to say thanks to everyone for sharing their thoughts. Doing is more important than thinking about it, but thinking about training does help, even if only a little.
Take care,
Matt

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 09-30-2005, 03:07 AM   #331
Jorx
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
James Cagner wrote:
Hi all, this is my first post
Talking about real figths, as everybody sayd before, jiu jitsu is as real as a dream world
Or you think that, in a real figth, life or death situation you can say to the guy :"finger in the eye, brake fingers, kick in the eggs are against the rules" ??????
LOL I can't believe some people STILL think that way.

I bet there would be some guys in most jiujitsu schools who would fight you with those things allowed.
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Old 09-30-2005, 12:24 PM   #332
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Jorgen,

I was thinking just that this morning when I first read this post. I'd welcome the opportunity to train with someone who honestly believes in the eye poke, gouging, egg kicking solution set.

Those things certainly are worthwile tactics for sure, but to dismiss BJJ or ground fighting as being ineffective because of those things usually demonstrates to me that the person making the statement doesn't have a good understanding of ground fighting.

Fighting is much more complex than aikido, BJJ, or any other martial art. It requires many, many things..which is why we will always have the debate over the effectiveness of an art in real life. They cannot be dismissed with the eye gouge theory.
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Old 09-30-2005, 01:11 PM   #333
Patrick Crane
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Pierre Rood wrote:
Congratulations, you live in paradise no doubt.
Ah, sarcasm, thank you.
Just like a grapefruit....bitter but healthy.

So, since I have been called to task by more than one respondent, maybe an informal poll is in order.

...and I'm not trying to be argumentative, but am seriously curious to know...

How many of us live in neighborhoods where we face the real, day-to-day prospect of having to personally, directly deal with serious, felony street violence?
...you know, drive-by's, gang-bangers, drug dealers, thugs, hoodlums, etc., etc.

And you're right, although I've never really thought of BFE-Tennessee as anything approaching "Paradise," I suppose I should be more thankful for my apparently sheltered existence.
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Old 09-30-2005, 01:17 PM   #334
wendyrowe
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Patrick Crane wrote:
...maybe an informal poll is in order...How many of us live in neighborhoods where we face the real, day-to-day prospect of having to personally, directly deal with serious, felony street violence?
...you know, drive-by's, gang-bangers, drug dealers, thugs, hoodlums, etc., etc...
My suburb's quiet, but according the Boston Massachusetts newspaper there are plenty of places there where I could be involved personally in serious street violence without trying that hard. And the quiet suburb I was in before moving here was a suburb of New York City, where I KNOW it's easy to find yourself some serious street violence.
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Old 09-30-2005, 01:43 PM   #335
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

knowing your neighborhood and what is in it is the very first step according to Sun Tzu Mitigating that risk would be next. Not sure what a poll would serve other than "one up-manship".

I do think however that it your environment is important to consider, bu that is a personal thing and how you respond to it is individual. Frankly if I lived in a really risky area, I'd consider moving away, if that was not an option, nor was not the thing do to, i'd try and find a way to co-exsist with it.

It might be to carry a gun, find a group of really tough and good friends, do some volunteer work and get to know my neighbors and try and fight back some how, or avoid the trouble areas during certain times.

Certainly empty hand martial arts may be more relevant or important to someone who lives in a high risk area, but I believe if that is really the case, there are many more things that you can do to mitigate your risk than the lousy techniques of empty hand...but that is me.

It is though always good to hear and learn from those that live in high risk crime area and how they have found to deal with such problems of violence.
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Old 09-30-2005, 01:53 PM   #336
Pierre Rood
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

A friend told me she started years ago taking jiu-jitsu because she got harrassed by people when going home at evenings by public transport. After just a couple of lessons a man blocked her path on the sidewalk. When she went left he went also, and vice versa. He played and blocked her. She felt very afraid. But then somehow in an instant she decided if it had to be it had to be and went straight through him. To her great surprise he went quickly out of the way. He had probably felt her power and then avoided a confrontation.

Just a story.
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Old 09-30-2005, 10:13 PM   #337
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
knowing your neighborhood and what is in it is the very first step according to Sun Tzu Mitigating that risk would be next. Not sure what a poll would serve other than "one up-manship".
I can understand being curious about the likelihood of people facing dangerous situations. However, I'd go so far as to say no one should consider themselves safe. I don't mean we should all be paranoid and always looking over our shoulder, but we ought enter and leave every situation as if it could be both a blessing and a problem. Also, I can see how it would be easy to enter into a "one up-manship" conversation. Maybe a better approach would be to describe situations experienced. Granted we could read the newspaper and get all that, so perhaps if we kept it applicable to Aikido principles?

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 10-05-2005, 04:00 PM   #338
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

"Aikido does not work at all in a fight."

and thats why!!

Aikido is the way of harmony, that means that we should not be looking to fight and not worrying if aikido works in a real fight.

What I mean by this is that there are ways of diffusing a fight situation by your intension's and attitude alone without even raising a fist. This, I think, is what the way of harmony is (as well as learning waza).

That thats surely a lot easier than worrying if it works or not.

Regards,

Steve

p.s. I would like to say that aikido has everything that is needed to defend and restrain an attacker in any situation. But the technique must be used in accordance with the correct philosophy in mind and not one of "I will win".
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Old 10-05-2005, 11:23 PM   #339
Pierre Rood
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Exclamation Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I agree Steve, we should not be looking to fight and not worry if it works.

But the fact is on these forums you find a clear display of the harmonious intents of the practitioners of Aikido and an even so clear uncertainty about whether if works or not. For a lot of people it is not uncertain to me what they actually feel: they have the worry it does not work in a real fight.

People complain about the unrealistic attacks, the unrealistic need of cooperation to make things work, the unrealistic 'no touch' throws. People have not the feeling they know what to do when a kickboxer attacks, or a taekwondoka, or a boxer, or a bjj guy, or when in a confined space, or when being dragged to the ground.

My friends, if this is the case, a person's Aikido is not working, because one doesn't train for a martial art, but for a (even so valid) 'moving meditation' art, the Aiki-fruity style.

I think Aikido contains the martial art side as wel as the soft, peacefull side. The training should reflect this and a practioner should be learning gradually what to do against all kinds of attacks in all kinds of situations.

Just my 0.02.
Pierot.
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Old 10-06-2005, 09:01 PM   #340
CNYMike
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Pierre Rood wrote:
.... People complain about .... the unrealistic need of cooperation to make things work ....
I don't think the cooperation "makes things work," but it is important to learn how to do something. It's also curteous, IMHO. Having someone resist to the point you can't do something doesn't leave you grateful -- it leaves you mad at them, unless you know how to deal with that. Most people new to MA probably won't.

Quote:
..... People have not the feeling they know what to do when a kickboxer attacks, or a taekwondoka, or a boxer, or a bjj guy, or when in a confined space, or when being dragged to the ground.
There as many anecdotes about aikidoka who handle attacks they have not been formally trained for as there are about Aikidoka who have their heads handed to them in the same situation. Pick which one you believe and run with it.

That said, realitically, what are the odds about being attacked on the street by another martial artist? Porbably not good, if it even is possible, for the simple reason martial artists are rare in our culture, and that doesn't count the fact that 90% of the people who stat quit within a year. And even then, statitistically, you're most likely to mix it up with a Tae Kwon Do or sport karate person. You start talking about things like Thai Boxing, BJJ, and so forth, those are rarities within rarities. Or as my Kali instructor like to put it: "Grapplers make it sound like everyone and their uncle is doing Brazillian Jui Jitsu, but I have yet to meet anyone at random who can do it." And boxers? "Someone says, 'That won't work against Mike Tyson,' I say, 'I agree with you, but I'm not worried about getting into a fight with Mike Tyson!'"

So while "What would an aikido person do against ______________ ?" may be a fun academic exercise, it's probably not something you have to worry about. True, if you wanted to fight in an NHB event, straight "traditional" Aikido might be not what you want to go with, but most Aikido people aren't going to do that, so it doesn't matter.

Quote:
..... a practioner should be learning gradually what to do against all kinds of attacks in all kinds of situations.

Just my 0.02.
Pierot.
What this boils down to, however, is that you can't just have ONE answer to every attack (a jab-cross say), but figure out how to make EVERY Aikido techique -- shiho-nage, irimi nage, the controls, kote gaeshi, kokyu nage, and so on -- work against each indicidual attack. That's the way the art is organized as it is; dealing with new attacks means adapting EVERY technique to each attack you can think of. IMHO, anyway.

This sounds like a lot of work, and I am too &^%^%$(*& lazy to do it. You want to? Fine. Me, I'll go and keep dancing with the elves.
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Old 10-07-2005, 07:08 AM   #341
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Yes I totally agree Michael, very good post !!
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Old 10-07-2005, 07:13 AM   #342
happysod
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Me, I'll go and keep dancing with the elves
I'd watch myself if I were you, the little beggers bite you know. I prefer pixies myself

Anyway, what's this thread still doing alive, I thought this was a dead thread, it has ceased to to exist, er, suddenly realises it's Friday as decides to stop now and look forward to reading those who took Ian D seriously in his recent reply...
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Old 10-07-2005, 10:58 AM   #343
CNYMike
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Ian Hurst wrote:
I'd watch myself if I were you, the little beggers bite you know. ...
Wrong elves.

When I first read the term "aiki elves" ( http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7069 ), I didn't envision the little guys who live in trees and make cookies. I envisioned the tall, lean, @$$-kickers from The Lord of the Rings.

Those elves.

So, who has to watch himeself?
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Old 10-08-2005, 06:56 AM   #344
Ed Shockley
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I am a large man, 240lbs, no fat, but there is always someone larger, stronger, better trained,faster, crazier...Aikido has taught me that the only way to win a fight is not to enter into it. Ultimate fighting is a sport in which men get paid to hurt other men. Living in a drug infested urban neighborhood, there was a point in my life that I studied those techniques and others as I work to reclaim my block. I also studied guns and knives because those were the weapons I anticipated facing and using. Working in the "real world" facing real dangers trying to make real change, I found and find myself using the cell phone, police and collective action as the most effective self defense tactics.
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Old 10-08-2005, 12:47 PM   #345
John Lilly
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Very well put Michael.
I have worked in a county jail for 17 years and I am about to return to training in aikido after 4 years. I have studied on and off for about 12 years total. I have worked in every jail position the easy as well as the more dangerous: Max, Booking, Psych and I have had my share of "use of force" incidents. I have dealt with thousands of offenders and have never had to fight with a skilled martial artist. The closest I can think of is one psych who had some Kung Fu experience but he was hardly a martial artist. We have had people with skill booked upon occasion but it is rare. To become a skilled martial artist requires discipline. If you have that kind of discipline you are not likely to provoke fights with strangers.
But my main point is: If I can work where I do and not get into fights so should your average martial artist be able to avoid getting into fights as well.
John
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Old 10-09-2005, 06:28 AM   #346
Pierre Rood
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Hi guys,

I'm a bit disappointed with the quality of some of the posts about the 'knowing what to do' against several kinds of attack. The staying away from the subject seems me to confirm the opinion of the first poster.

It is not the kind of Aikido I want to do. I like the psychological and filosophical side of Aikido very much, but mine has to be based on the concrete art of dealing with physical attack, and not with the ability to use a cell phone.
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Old 10-09-2005, 12:25 PM   #347
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I tend to side with Ed Shockley. His experiences parallel many of my own.

If you want to learn how to deal with physical attacks, there are many more skilled, efficient, and effective ways to deal with them than wasting time with aikido.

However, if you want the other benefits that come with being able to use these other things more effectively, then spend your time studying aikido.

Naturally, aikido should be based on sound, realistic, and controlled principles. However, these should not ever be confused focusing on training for real situations, because you are missing the whole real reason for studying aikido.

Sorry to talk in circles, but it is the duality of the art, and I think many people really just don't get it! I know it took me many years to figure it out!
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Old 10-09-2005, 06:47 PM   #348
CNYMike
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
Sorry to talk in circles, but it is the duality of the art, and I think many people really just don't get it! I know it took me many years to figure it out!
Yeah, I'm kind of the same way, too. On the one hand, for most self defense situations, Aikido -- even straight "aiki-dance" Aikido -- may work just fine. Certainly when a thread like this starts, a chorus of "It worked for me!"'s start up, so who am I to argue with that? On top of that, there's the statistical unlikelihood of actually getting in a dustup with another martial artist, and even then, it's most likely going to be someone from TKD or Sport Karate; the MMA guys who could make your lives miserable are too busy typing screeds against Aikido and other TMA on the 'net to go out and actually beat people up.

On the other hand, going out and studying other MA in addition to Aikido isn't going to kill you. In this business, with all that's out there, ignorance isn't bliss, and wilfull ignorance is probably a bad idea.

Personally, I'm probably somewhat casual on the whole thing: I've been doing Kali under gentlemen connected to Guro Dan Inosanto, and if Guro Dan is in or tight with someone in your lineage, you're going to crosstrain -- period. It's encouraged. But respect for all martial arts was driven home, too, as well as the attitude that Everything's ok as it is. That's why I'm cool with Aikido as is. No, maybe it can't handle everything, but then, it doesn't have to.

Yeah, it is circular, but then Aikido is circular/spherical, too, so maybe it's fitting that it's ok to think that way.

.... ok, now I am getting dizzy ....

But here's hoping someone sees what I'm sayin'.
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Old 10-09-2005, 08:04 PM   #349
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I think I might have met Ed Shockley...did you take ukemi for Donovan Waite a lot at Jeff Bowden's dojo when Waite Sensei taught there?

I would NOT pick a fight with him...and what he and John Lilly say makes a lot of sense to me.

Sorry you're disappointed Pierre, but I hope your dojo gives you what you're looking for.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 10-09-2005, 09:36 PM   #350
emma.mason15
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

man Im HOPING aikido workx!!!!
Ive got a violent ex-hubby who likes to re-emerge sporadically ..... just to remind me what fear is!
im doing this for confidence so at these points I can still go to the supermarket .... if he gets me alone .... im PRAYING that ive not been paying for some nifty looking , but ultimatly usless self defence!!!
(i have every faith in what ive learnt btw)
so make up ur minds peeps ......will or wont i be safe?
em x

Dance your cares away .... worry for another day ... let the music play .... down in fraggle rock!

when bored ... do as I do. Poke a patient!
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