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Old 09-20-2005, 12:56 AM   #301
sutemaker17
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote:
IMHO,
street = location
fighting = physical conflict with intent to do harm
parameters = none
paradigms = none
assumptions = none
when = a long time ago, growing up in Detroit, when I was really young and really stupid

We won't even go into the military (Army 72-74) combat scenarios.
Great post Lynn.
Thanks,
Jason
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Old 09-20-2005, 09:29 AM   #302
DaveO
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
David Young wrote:
Doesnt UFC stand for Ultimately Fake Crap?
Untrained FistiCuffs?
Until Fools Collide?
Unrealistic Fighting Competition?

Dont stress Frank, many (most?) martial artists have great disdain for the UFC.
Then they're fools.

The UFC, controversial as it is, is a superb venue for MMA contest. The men that step into the Octagon are at the top of their respective fields and deserve a bit more respect, thank you.

Answers are only easy when they're incomplete.
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Old 09-20-2005, 09:46 AM   #303
djalley
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Wendy Rowe wrote:
OK, so Donald Alley should have read the date more carefully before posting. But it's a topic that never dies, so at least if it's here you know this is the Zombie Thread and you don't have to read it.

Holy smokes you're right! I saw it at the top of the forum discussion and assumed it was a current discussion. I'm not the resurrector of the thread, but I should have read the dates, to be sure.

My opinions on the matter, however, stand.

DJA
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Old 09-20-2005, 02:55 PM   #304
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

David, I would not say that.

I would say that it is a competition with rules however.

Same as most street fights that are described by Roy Dean which are ego based situation where people get mad at each other and decide to express their emotions physically. Three is no real intent typically to render the individual dead or seriously injured...at least no pre-meditated attack. I'd say for most of us, the power is within us to avoid such situations.

I like Wendy Rowe's comments which decribe violent assaults which is more along the lines of what is really what we need to be concerned with, that which we will not know, will not see, and what we will have very little control over and are usually taken by suprise. I don't characterize these as street fights, which, again...I find mostly avoidable.
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Old 09-20-2005, 09:00 PM   #305
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
lots of assumptions and concepts floating around about "street fighting". ... What is street fighting? I am really curious to see what parameters, paradigms, and assumptions that everyone has about what street fighitng is all about, and what/when do you see yourself involved in them?

I find it interesting that aikido people spend a great deal of time trying to "let go" of assumptions/presumptions that are formed in their mind when trying to "do" or react to an attacker (establishing mushin)...but you mention the words "STREET FIGHT" and everything goes out the window!
I like your approach here. Regardless of whether or not some people are tired of this thread yet feel compelled to remind us of this fact, and regardless of what conceptions people may have about one art or another, the core of this issue is valid...in my opinion at least. We ought consider everything we can. One person's assumptions about any given thing are perhaps merely an opportunity to consider something new or even consider something old as if it were new. All that said:
I think "street fighting" is simply no-rules fighting. I think when people think of it as simply as that and try to prepare accordingly (for anything, in other words) then, well, that's as good as it gets. I grew up with friends who's idea of a good time was fighting. Some were simply good at placing one good punch while taking a beating, and some were more tricky...yet others were best when their friends weren't far behind. I've known people to get stabbed and shot and so from this I know pretty much anything can happen. In short, a street fight is dangerous to everyone near by it and sometimes far away, whether by space or time when you consider that some people remember faces very well or will try and pay back one person for the actions of another. With this in mind, we as martial artists ought seek as complete a perspective as possible and try to work on our ability to coordinate as potent and flexible a response as we can possibly muster. Each step in this path is less important than the next one. I'm not speaking of technique and basics here, but saying that it doesn't matter what art you study so long as you continually try to improve and learn/refine yourself, mind body and spirit...or whatever one may happen to view as the ultimate truth of reality. All we can do is our best with what we have at our disposal and this goes for our perspective, the experiences it comes from and our physical and mental tools we use to interact with the world around us.
Ganbatte!
Matt

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 09-21-2005, 03:24 PM   #306
DaveO
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
David, I would not say that.

I would say that it is a competition with rules however.

Same as most street fights that are described by Roy Dean which are ego based situation where people get mad at each other and decide to express their emotions physically. Three is no real intent typically to render the individual dead or seriously injured...at least no pre-meditated attack. I'd say for most of us, the power is within us to avoid such situations.

I like Wendy Rowe's comments which decribe violent assaults which is more along the lines of what is really what we need to be concerned with, that which we will not know, will not see, and what we will have very little control over and are usually taken by suprise. I don't characterize these as street fights, which, again...I find mostly avoidable.
Oh; I don't for a second support UFC as 'street-value'; I think prior posts I've made on that subject fairly adequately describe my opinions on the matter.

(That said; someone with the physical condition, training, reflexes and experience with dealing with force required for the UFC is more likely to have a decent shot of defending himself over one who has none of the above.)

However; I strongly disagree with anyone passing off the UFC as stupid or pointless. Or, to use the described words,
'Fake', 'Unrealistic', 'Untrained fools' etc. My personal belief is if someone wants to disparage the UFC - or any other sort of competition, style, group, organization etc. he'd better be willing to walk a mile in their shoes.

Answers are only easy when they're incomplete.
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Old 09-22-2005, 01:20 AM   #307
djyoung
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

No offense but they are amusing variations on the acronym UFC... they are intended to be humorous and lighten the mood. Im sorry if you take them so seriously.

And as for what I said about real martial artists having disdain for UFC, I would say that a real martial artist by most definitions is not interested in sport, they train for life, health, street defence etc. So all the trumped up claims of the UFC being realistic street fighting is something to cringe at.

All that being said, learn to laugh more, it'll add years to your life!
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Old 09-23-2005, 02:59 PM   #308
CNYMike
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Dave Organ wrote:
(That said; someone with the physical condition, training, reflexes and experience with dealing with force required for the UFC is more likely to have a decent shot of defending himself over one who has none of the above.)
AFAIK, the guys I knew back in the day with real world/street experince didn't have that level of training conditioning, but they still lived to talk about it.

Then again, over the years, I've had some exposure to the kind of structures MMA guys play with, so I'm not against it, either.

You want to do it, fine; you don't, don't. Train the way you want to train; no sense getting steamed over it.
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Old 09-25-2005, 03:39 PM   #309
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I can tell you this, 10 years ago I was "owning" "street/NHB" fighters with traditonal Martial art skills, today that is not the case.

Like it or not, UFC changed a huge paradiqm in the way dudes are training in MMA. I know it has changed much in how I now approach my martial training. You need a much broader skill set in order to impress those that are really serious about being "all they can be".

This statement should not be construed as discrediting traditional martial arts...they have their place, and are as relevant today as they ever have been....just not necessarily in all situations or venues.

In training Infantymen, we tend to emphasize, MMA, or grappling skills. When training MPs for civil issues, I find that aikido type skills to be more appropriate.

In training both, however, it is NOT an aikido class, but appropriate martial techniques derived around particlular situations/scenarios that are "high probability" things they might incur in their jobs. The skills taught/emphasized are those those that seem to work best for them.

In aikido, we typically are not training for a particular scenario or fight, but for the sake of understanding the principles of aikido which center around the "way of harmony"...skills learned are their to demonstrate princples of the founder. Certainly they can be applied to specific situations.

I think though, once you start focusing on these scenarios such as street fighting, you have now left the realm of aikido and are now entering a new one that requires you to truely understand the "rules of engagement" that you wish to focus on in order to best mitigate the risk you seek to avoid, or the "competition" you seek to win.

Whatever it is, it is NOT AIKIDO!

Have a nice day all!
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Old 09-25-2005, 04:47 PM   #310
aikido funky monkey
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I dont thinkyou at the very top have evry really studied aikido. first of all an aikidoka doesnt fight, (he,or she) flows with the attackers attack. second ,if studied thuroughly enough, aikido can stop any attack.third I dare you to tell me an attack that cant be stopped by aikido
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Old 09-25-2005, 06:26 PM   #311
Savlu
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

what does UFC means?
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Old 09-25-2005, 07:55 PM   #312
NixNa
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

UFC stands for Ultimate Fighting Championship. Check tis out for some info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimat...g_Championship
and the Official site is here: http://www.ufc.tv/
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Old 09-26-2005, 12:43 AM   #313
Jorx
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Kyle Lindsey wrote:
I dont thinkyou at the very top have evry really studied aikido. first of all an aikidoka doesnt fight, (he,or she) flows with the attackers attack. second ,if studied thuroughly enough, aikido can stop any attack.third I dare you to tell me an attack that cant be stopped by aikido


Dear Kyle, of course any attack THEROETICALLY can. But it is the question of PRACTICE.

But for example: Aikido has NO ground techniques. I have yet to experience an aikido dojo which practices against leg tackles. Etc.

Given the fact that usually in Aikido it takes decades to come to understanding of principles and to move on to more realistic attacks you would probably die of old age before being able to "study aikido throughly enough".


Zombiemania!
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Old 09-26-2005, 04:18 AM   #314
bogglefreak20
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Jorgen Matsi wrote:

Given the fact that usually in Aikido it takes decades to come to understanding of principles and to move on to more realistic attacks you would probably die of old age before being able to "study aikido throughly enough".
As they say: "Fear a karateka at 40, a judoka at 60 and an aikidoka at 80."

Beatus Qui Venit In Nomine Domini!
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Old 09-26-2005, 04:19 AM   #315
PeterR
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

If it takes you that long to learn Aikido you have a poor teacher.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 09-26-2005, 05:53 AM   #316
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I agree Peter. What is hard to agree on though is what you actually are learning and why. I mean philsophically it may take someone a short amount of time to "learn" the lessons of aikido. Skill wise you can become fairly proficient quickly as well, especially if you are young and athletically inclined.

However, I think the synthesis of being able to the mental, physical, and spritual aspects AND being able to teach them to others (which IMHO, should be the goal of mastery), could take much longer.

It may also take you much longer (or not) to learn how to apply aikido widely across a spectrum of situations from "real life", to being a Shihan

I suppose it really depends on your perspective about what "learning" aikido really is all about.

As far as working in a fight....I am really stumped to be honest. Not sure why someone would approach aikido as an efficient methodolgy to study "fighting" since aikido really is not aligned with that paradigm (whatever it may be). I think in these situations, you need to pick your focus of risk and/or situations, and adapt/focus your training on those things that are "high probability" for your particular situation.

I know I am being repetitive, but that does not align or is not aikido in my book.

I think how you define learning aikido is based on personal perspective. That said, to learn the basics of aikido, should only take a few years to master (become profiecient) the rote techniques.
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Old 09-26-2005, 10:51 PM   #317
Pierre Rood
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Hi All,

I think Aikido is one of the best fighting arts because of its heritage in samourai tradition. It's the essence of effectivity and efficiency from hundreds of years of practice and combat.

I feel that Aikido prepares you for the real horror of bloody fighting by transforming you mentally in speed and agility itself.

I feel that Aikido tries to accomodate the 'all out' streetfighting which is in us all when in a life and death situation.
It tries to form a shield of reflexes and calmness and "knowing what to do" at unconscious level that effienctly uses the pure energy of the "crazyness" of the real fight and thus multiplies the effectivity of our natural streetfighting ability.

But Aikido teaches this in a kind of hidden manner, like the karate kid having to paint the wall. I very much trust in the "Do", as well the fighting side as the spiritual side.

Many things in Aikido are unique psychological principles, which will you learn to avoid the brutal way's of conflict and learn to live with others in harmonious way's.
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Old 09-28-2005, 08:14 PM   #318
Patrick Crane
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I blame Hollywood, male machismo, and unresolved "playground bully" issues for this whole thread.

Guys like Norris, VanDamme and Steven what-Dan-is-he-this-week Seagal can't seem to get through an hour and a half movie without getting into at least two or three "street" fights.....probably being attacked by disgruntled dialogue coaches.
Funny, I haven't been in a "fight" since I was 12.

If a bully at school demands your milk money, say "no."
If he hits you hit him back.
It has nothing to do with aikido, martial arts or "street" fighting technique.
It's psych 101.....the kid simply needs to learn, the hard way, where the behavioral boundaries are.

A valid point has been raised, asking what exactly is a "street" fight anyway?
How many of us are gang members out looking to rumble?..........lol.......if your life is a stupid Michael Jackson video, get a new life.
How many of us are Navy SEAL's or Texas Rangers?......lol........Hollywood again.
So what really is a "street" fight?
It's when your husband comes home drunk (again) and decides to take his frustrations out on you (again).
It's when your date decides it's time to go "all the way" whether you want to or not.
For men, for the most part, a "street" fight is a figment of our imagination.........unless you happen to be the over-agressive date (for whom I have no sympathy) who doesn't realize she's a shodan, and end up getting your wrist broken.
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Old 09-28-2005, 08:18 PM   #319
aikigirl10
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Patrick Crane wrote:
I blame Hollywood, male machismo, and unresolved "playground bully" issues for this whole thread.

Guys like Norris, VanDamme and Steven what-Dan-is-he-this-week Seagal can't seem to get through an hour and a half movie without getting into at least two or three "street" fights.....probably being attacked by disgruntled dialogue coaches.
Funny, I haven't been in a "fight" since I was 12.

If a bully at school demands your milk money, say "no."
If he hits you hit him back.
It has nothing to do with aikido, martial arts or "street" fighting technique.
It's psych 101.....the kid simply needs to learn, the hard way, where the behavioral boundaries are.

A valid point has been raised, asking what exactly is a "street" fight anyway?
How many of us are gang members out looking to rumble?..........lol.......if your life is a stupid Michael Jackson video, get a new life.
How many of us are Navy SEAL's or Texas Rangers?......lol........Hollywood again.
So what really is a "street" fight?
It's when your husband comes home drunk (again) and decides to take his frustrations out on you (again).
It's when your date decides it's time to go "all the way" whether you want to or not.
For men, for the most part, a "street" fight is a figment of our imagination.........unless you happen to be the over-agressive date (for whom I have no sympathy) who doesn't realize she's a shodan, and end up getting your wrist broken.
Awesome post!
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Old 09-28-2005, 09:07 PM   #320
SeiserL
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Patrick Crane wrote:
IA valid point has been raised, asking what exactly is a "street" fight anyway?

How many of us are gang members out looking to rumble?
How many of us are Navy Seal's or Texas Rangers?

So what really is a "street" fight?
It's when your husband comes home drunk (again) and decides to take his frustrations out on you (again).
It's when your date decides it's time to go "all the way" whether you want to or not.
For men, for the most part, a "street" fight is a figment of our imagination.........unless you happen to be the over-aggressive date (for whom I have no sympathy) who doesn't realize she's a shodan, and end up getting your wrist broken.
Does an ex-biker from Detroit and Army veteran count? As a counselor I have worked a lot of domestic violence and sexual assault cases. There is a reality to the streets. Combat, domestic violence, and rape is not IMHO a "street fight." The next time I have a victim I'll let them know that its just a "figment of our imagination".

I guess you can be grateful that the streets are only in your imagination. For some of us, it has been a reality. For others, it still is.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 09-28-2005, 09:38 PM   #321
Kenneth Baņares
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Let's give it a rest people........ it's the martial artist not the martial arts. There is no one "invincible truly effective martial art". Let's stop questioning if aikido works or not. Just keep on training so you'll be ready when the situation comes.
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Old 09-28-2005, 09:40 PM   #322
rob_liberti
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Umm, who are these limp-wristed, flower-loving, date-gropers who are getting their wrists broken by shodans? Are there really shodans who are snapping men's wrists in out-of-the-dojo situations? I think aikido can really work and all, but maybe we are giving a little too much faith in the ability of someone who has just started learning anything about aikido...

Rob
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Old 09-28-2005, 10:58 PM   #323
c ryan
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Interesting that you are able to make deductive statements about something like the practical uses of aikido. While I am not a professional athlete, I have fought competitively in IKF under full contact rules, in karate and, unfortunately, in "street" conditions. While training in boxing, kick boxing and karate, in every instance of self defense I utilized aikido. Ultimate fighting is a sport, specifically trained for, and casual training in any art is insufficient. To compare self defense aikido to ultimate fighting is, to me, like asking a white belt to take a dan examination.
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Old 09-29-2005, 01:17 AM   #324
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Patrick Crane wrote:
If a bully at school demands your milk money, say "no."
If he hits you hit him back.
It has nothing to do with aikido, martial arts or "street" fighting technique.
It's psych 101.....the kid simply needs to learn, the hard way, where the behavioral boundaries are.
I don't follow how this is related to whether or not Aikido (or any other martial art) is a viable option for self-defense. Also, simply hitting someone back seems like a short-sighted action that has gotten some people even more hurt. I've seen it played out. I would argue even a school-yard bully hitting you has everything to do with martial arts...especially considering many kids these days fancy theselves "thugs" and practically live for a fight. Yeah, sure, show them they can't push you around, but there's a lot more to it than simply hitting them back. Some people, when you hit them back, only have more to prove and will take things to extreams and some of them have very dangerous friends and know where you live. Rare? Yeah, but they're out there and people ought think before simply fighting with them, thinking that will teach them a lesson. Whether I'm right or wrong on specifics such as this matters little, but the consideration of issues like these are exactly what martial arts are all about, thus I think it has everything to do with them.
Take care,
Matt

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 09-29-2005, 01:27 AM   #325
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Lynn,

I believe I understand Mr Crane's post. I don't think he meant to imply, (nor did/do I) that violence is a figment of the imagination, simply that what most of us romanticize about MA in general will prepare us for in the since of our expectations of physical/technical skills.

As you know, I contend that MA actually do very little in the way of preparing us technically for what occurs in a violent altercation and if that is your focus, that is....to reduce or mitigate risk of harm to yourself, there are many more better ways to do this than rolling around a dojo.

All I ever ask of people is to "let go" or really think/meditate seriously on the subject to make sure they truely clear their minds of the paradiqms/expections of what an assailant will present, as it is , as Mr. Crane stated, probably a "figment of your imagination".

I do think, though, that MA offers us a great deal holistically in order to prepare for or prevent violence. Does that seem like a contradiction based on what I just wrote? A little, but I the key to it is the word holisitically. It can give us Mushin, it can help us with our awareness, help us see things that we never noticed about ourselves and others, it can serve as a method to heal us emotionally before and after a violent assault. It can mentally and physically harden us and make us a "hard" target versus a "soft" target.

It can also help us develop the appropriate responses for "fight or flight". However, focusing on particular scenarios or techniques for most of us is probably not time well spent.

Lynn, I know I am not telling you anthing you don't know about already though, but thought it was a good point to discuss or clarify these things.

Thanks!
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