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Old 05-08-2005, 08:22 PM   #251
rob_liberti
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I can't speak for all of aikido (like some people?!) but in my experience, I have a sempai named Nashida san who trains at Shohei Juku - Takasogo dojo (in Fukuoka, Japan). He tends to work out on Thursday nights. Please go meet him and invite him to a challenge to an open-handed match. He'll seriosuly might ask you to sign some legal papers first. Go ahead. I tried my best attacks on him and he made me feel like a 2 year old. I'm not saying I'm a world class attacker, but I think you'll get the feeling that some people are more than able to modify what is done in open handed aikido to fit unpredictable fighting situations- and he'll probably not hurt you too badly unless you really are asking for it. I'm fairly certain that he has tested aikido's effectiveness out and has no interest what-so-ever to prove anything about aikido to anyone. But if you are nice and ask for a challenge I'm sure you'll get one. If you are so positive that open handed aikido does not work period, maybe you can try to wait for him after class and try to take his wallet. Good luck.

Rob
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Old 05-09-2005, 01:17 AM   #252
Bodhi
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

CNYMike, actually the Gracies had been doing open challenges in Brazil for over 65 years before ever comming to the US. It wasnt until the 90s that the media began televising NHB events, wich in turn really brought in the numbers of people trying to test BJJ unsuccessfully, i think thats what Chris was getting at.( Chris, correct me if i misinterpreted you)

Yes BJJ is part of the JKD concepts curriculum, as is Kali/Silat, Muay Thai, etc, we use whatever consistantly works under "live" conditions. BTW, your in a great lineage, i have trained with Eric Paulson at some seminars (we are both within the Inosanto lineage), probly one of the coolest people ive ever met!

You are right not to be disrespectful of other arts, especially sense all arts have something to offer! I truly believe after years of experience in real world situations, not to mention working with some of the top martial artists around, that its the individual and how they have been training that makes the difference! You absorb what is useful, reject what is useless, and add what is uniquely your own, then you train under live conditions, with resisting opponents who are trying not to let you pull off your technique!

In the end, all this talk about this or that doesnt mean squat, i know guys from the street that would take apart most the people on this forum, they could give a shit about what you study or who your old ass teacher is or was! So it really boils down to how you view your life, what makes you happy, and what you feel you do and do not need to worry about! I have spent many years in some not so favorable places, doing jobs that could have gotten me killed, i think for the most part i have been very lucky! But one thing i do know is what does and does not work for real, be it day to day life, on the street, or overseas in some third world combat zone! I would venture to say that most the people on this forum have no clue what it really takes to survive a truly violent attack, one that keeps comming, and whos end result seems as if it were certain death! Im not talkin bout some bar fight that gets pulled apart, or you an your best friend gettin into it over some woman and getting afew bumps an bruises. Im talkin bout gettin a blade stuck in your ribs and still going on, im talkin bout having to fight over a firearm while the trigger is being pulled every few seconds, im talkin bout being caught in a situation where you must reach deep down inside you just to stay up! I could care less what others do, what they study, whom they train with, or what they have to say about me, i know i can walk the walk, and i know that what i have trained works for real, under conditions most these people have only had nightmares about! Anybody who wants me can come an find out if im for real or not, its that simple!

We got alot of keyboard warriors here, we got alot of guys sayin who would take who, or go challenge this guy or that, gimme a break! I asked all of you awhile back to get togather someplace in the middle of the country, to try and get the highest ranking Aikido people we could get to come! I said that we could test some theory for those folks that think they know what works consistantly against resisting attackers! Anywhere from different martial arts, to plain old street fighters, i even know afew Pro Boxers, Collegient Wrestlers, and NHB/MMA folks that would show! I thought it would be fun, and in the process really get alot of the questions answered, but people didnt wanna step up! Like i said, its eaisier to stay in that confort zone, and talk about what you, your teachers, or people from the past could have done! Its no wonder why so many people laugh at Aikido, it gets a bad wrap because nobody wants to lay it on the line! Theres so many talkers and typers out there!

Anyways, im bout done with this whole forum experience, it seems to be just alot of babble that i got caught up in after i asked a question for my old lady! I would also like to say that im not trying to single anyone out! I do think for the most part that Aikido people are good folks, its just that they bicker like a bunch of old women and their concept of reality sometimes makes me wanna

Now make sure to come back with some witty posts after im gone!

Good luck to you all, im out!
J
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Old 05-09-2005, 07:10 AM   #253
rob_liberti
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Hmm, so Jason, I should try to convince my sempai from Japan to come to the middle of the States somewhere so that you can test him out? How does that work exactly?! Do people do this? I think I would have as much a chance of setting that up as doing it on the moon.

Maybe an analogy might help. If I want to know how to spell a word, I take it upon myself to go find a dictionary. Now, when you want to check your spelling, do you challlenge someone to bring a dictionary to you and prove to you that your spelling is incorrect?

That's a pretty dishonest method of investigation if you ask me. But to be fair, you didn't ask.

Rob
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Old 05-09-2005, 09:39 AM   #254
CNYMike
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Jason Potenza wrote:
CNYMike, actually the Gracies had been doing open challenges in Brazil for over 65 years before ever comming to the US. It wasnt until the 90s that the media began televising NHB events, wich in turn really brought in the numbers of people trying to test BJJ unsuccessfully, i think thats what Chris was getting at.( Chris, correct me if i misinterpreted you)
You're right, but I was thinking of the videos they put out before the NHB events were telivised. And some BJJ made it into the first Lethal Weapon movie, so I was going by that.

Quote:
..... I asked all of you awhile back to get togather someplace in the middle of the country, to try and get the highest ranking Aikido people we could get to come! I said that we could test some theory for those folks that think they know what works consistantly against resisting attackers! Anywhere from different martial arts, to plain old street fighters, i even know afew Pro Boxers, Collegient Wrestlers, and NHB/MMA folks that would show! I thought it would be fun, and in the process really get alot of the questions answered, but people didnt wanna step up! .....
Like you could find a weekend when anyone's free!? If you haven't left Aikiweb for good yet, go to the "seminars" page and compare the listed events with what you have for the "JKD Concepts" seminars and events; I wouldn't be surprised if there are plenty of conflicts. Then figure everyone else has tournaments, clincis, seminars .....

Just picking a date would be a pain in the butt! I'm not kidding about that, it would be.


Quote:
..... Like i said, its eaisier to stay in that confort zone, and talk about what you, your teachers, or people from the past could have done! .....
I'd prefer to think "they" have their area of interest, just like you do. Yes, people get into esoteric, spiritual stuff, but Aikido is the most esoteric, spiritual martial art. It's like wondering why Thai Boxers spend a lot of time doing round kicks.

Quote:
Its no wonder why so many people laugh at Aikido .....
Nobody I know has laughed at my doing it. Guro Andy even encouraged me to add it to my training schedule (which also includes karate, Guro Andy's Kali/Serak class, and Tai Chi); he's said he's happy I'm doing all that because it makes "for a better Michael Gallagher." (I think it makes for a sleepy Michael Gallagher! If Andy's nuts concentrating on three arts, I must be totally whacked to be doing FIVE! Like anyone here has both oars in the water. But I digress.) More recently, I loaned him Training with the Master, a day-in-the-life photo essay on O Sensei. I think he read it from cover to cover. Makes me feel like a slacker -- I just went to the pictures. If anyone thinks I'm wasting my time, they haven't told me!
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Old 05-09-2005, 10:24 AM   #255
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I think it's funny how fast some people around here like to pass the buck! "I mean I'm not so good, but I know it works because my buddies good, you should fight with him", or, "Well I've never fought anyone but my teacher once beat up an army of super ninjas, so I know my stuff works, but I'm a pacifist". If you want to find out if your stuff works, just try it out, other wise, if you're happy with what you're doing shut up. There is no guarantee to winning a fight, everyone knows this, but different things can give you an edge, training is one of them. The better your training the more likely you are to come out of a situation in one piece. From the way some of the people around here tout their system I think they should be doing some public demonstrations of their ability against non cooperative attackers, you would become a famous sensei!

-Chris Hein

Last edited by ChrisHein : 05-09-2005 at 10:26 AM.
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Old 05-09-2005, 12:06 PM   #256
rob_liberti
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Chris,

A real live example was asked for, and I gave rather specific instructions about how to go about finding one. Please, by all means, go and find out for yourself. As far as bringing that person to the States for you or Jason, I can't even have that specific sempai come to the States to teach a seminar because I would have to invite his sensei and let that sensei decide to come, or pass the invitation on to anyone that sensei wants - which would probably NOT be the guy I wanted in the first place. If that specific sempai came to the States and did a seminar without permission, he'd not be welcome back to his home dojo. That's the reality of his Japanese culture.

As far as me passing the buck. Some guy came to visit me, and let him try - no buck passed there. I consistently go to friendship seminars and try all kinds of people who are really good. I never avoid anyone there. Some take me apart, and some have a lot more to learn. Each time, I learn all sorts of things. Those consistent actions are pretty much the exact opposite of passing the buck on the subject. While we both have written about our personal experiences, the thing is that I know I'm not so good at aikido that I can make blanket statements about aikido based on my personal experiences. As a matter of fact, in my own experiences, I do know someone that would be happy to let you challenge his open-handed aikido ability - you just have to accommodate his culture. It's up to you.

Good luck with your training.
Rob
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Old 05-09-2005, 08:08 PM   #257
CNYMike
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
... I think it's funny how fast some people around here like to pass the buck! .....
Even if you read the published works on Aikido, the accounts are out there; you can't avoid them. In Aikido: The Way of Harmony, John Stevens wrote about an incident in which Shirata Rinjiro Sensei upended a karate man who threw a kick instead of shomen uchi. You can role your eyes and go, Oh, that's a rumor, show me a guy going into a cage match with the NHB heavyweight champ and winning! Then I might consider believing, but that doesn't change the fact the accounts are there.

For myself, I have to ammend a statement I made earlier in the thread when I said Aikido didn't pop out when I did some impromptu sparring with my Kali instructor. I might have refelxively done some Aikido footwork at one point. It didn't do me any good at the time, because I was holding one of Guro Andy's hands while he swatted me with the other one (it was light contact and he was being nice, so I wasn't beaten to a pulp), but what leads me to believe it might have been Aikido is that on reflection, I have no clear memory of what I did; my body was on autopilot, just as it was on another recent occassion when I finished a Kali arm bar with an Aikido pin. Then again, I've piled so many things into my muscle memory over the years that it might not have been Aikido. So the best I can say is that the possibility that Aiki can happen during a kickboxing scenario can not be excluded with 100% certainty, even with your experiences to the contrary.

Say that ten times fast.

Not the most dramatic testimonial -- in fact, very lame -- but there you are.
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Old 05-10-2005, 05:55 PM   #258
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Forget the NHB heavy weight champ, I'd like to see a Rokudan beat a cameraman in an unarmed confrontation!!

-Chris Hein
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Old 05-10-2005, 11:30 PM   #259
CNYMike
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
Forget the NHB heavy weight champ, I'd like to see a Rokudan beat a cameraman in an unarmed confrontation!!

-Chris Hein
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Old 05-11-2005, 06:45 AM   #260
rob_liberti
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7978
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Old 05-11-2005, 09:15 AM   #261
CNYMike
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Thanks for the link, Rob.
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Old 09-05-2005, 02:45 PM   #262
Satyre
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Smile Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I'm a New Zealander. We don't solve disputes by shooting people.

In the venerable tradition of our English, Scottish, Irish and Maori forebears we resolve conflicts in the old-fashioned manner: Fisticuffs. We enjoy hitting each other. So do many Australians I believe.

Nevertheless I have spent less than 5 minutes fighting in the last 10 years.

On the other hand I will probably practice Aikido for between 200-300 hours a year.

In a worst case scenario, this means I practice for 2000 hours in 10 years to ensure that I am ready for those 5 minutes.

Is it just me or does that make no sense whatsoever?

Hell, not even I am that paranoid.

(It would make more sense to embrace religion and spend 60 years preparing my soul for being eternally dead: the investment-return ratio is considerably better)


As such, the question of whether Aikido does or does not work in a fight is in many respects irrelevant. Moreover, I am much more likely to suffer more pain and a greater number of injuries as a result of practicing Aikido than as a result of being attacked.

In fact, this is most likely true of many martial arts: People suffer more injuries and pain learning a martial art than as a result of being involved in a serious conflict.
I know of more judoka whose knees and shoulders have been destroyed in competition than of those who have been beaten up in a street fight.


Does Aikido work?

We can train for the real case as best we can. But in the end, the joy we get from the training itself is worth far more than any self-defense benefits we might gain.
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Old 09-06-2005, 07:10 PM   #263
Jiawei
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Aikido was never designed for a deliberate fight. It was meant (technically not counting the spiritual aspect in) , to defend yourself while given the option not to hurt your attacker. That's one of the genius inventions behind Aikido.

So if the starter of the thread is crazy enough to use Aikido to pick a streetfight........


But yet, I say we still haven't seen AIkido at its fullest potential in a real situation. So to say it doesn't work is gross underestimation
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Old 09-14-2005, 10:17 AM   #264
Chris Walla
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I have nothing to say that hasn't been said here, so I guess I will go to a soccer sponsered forum and tell them they do not know how to kick or run.
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Old 09-14-2005, 10:29 AM   #265
Dirk Hanss
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Chris,
don't do that in the net, but live in a fan club. That will make more fun and as side effect you can test your aikido


Dirk
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Old 09-14-2005, 10:33 AM   #266
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I used my Aikido to start a restaurant.1 not to end a fight.
yes kenpo works BETTER in a fight, but then i am glad i don't enpo my child when things get ROUGH. well i like o think of my aikido as sorta like surfing,

in Aiki
Agatsu!!
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Old 09-14-2005, 10:38 AM   #267
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

oh yeah, Jun you should ban all future questions about the validity of our art, since this site is for aikidoka we should know?!?!/ just a thought that would disolve allthis chatter for all of us who have encountered a SERIOUS SANKYO. and for all you non aikido yes i am an instructor in kenpo and aikido, like some people teach painting and math.

in Aiki
Agatsu!!
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Old 09-14-2005, 11:04 AM   #268
ChrisHein
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

When do you guys think all these silly threads like "Aikido never works" or "I can't beat up Rickson Gracie with Aikido, so it's no good" Going to stop? I mean isn't it time to get over it, if you didn't get into Aikido with Illusions of being a super hero, then discover that you are to fat and lazy to actually learn anything, thus leaving fantasy land; you wouldn't be complaining right now.

-Chris Hein
Recovering fat lazy fantasy kid.
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Old 09-14-2005, 11:48 AM   #269
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
When do you guys think all these silly threads like "Aikido never works" or "I can't beat up Rickson Gracie with Aikido, so it's no good" Going to stop?
IMHO, these questions will never stop. They are valid questions from the beginner spectator position. They cannot be answered in a verbal forum but only if the individual has the discipline and patience to train hard and long enough to answer the question themselves from their own experience.

Let them ask. Think of them as your Kohai.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 09-14-2005, 03:05 PM   #270
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Benjamin wrote:
Quote:
In a worst case scenario, this means I practice for 2000 hours in 10 years to ensure that I am ready for those 5 minutes.

Is it just me or does that make no sense whatsoever?

Hell, not even I am that paranoid.

(It would make more sense to embrace religion and spend 60 years preparing my soul for being eternally dead: the investment-return ratio is considerably better)
You and me see eye to eye. Go back and look at many of my post...only you said it much better.

I think aikido or any martial art as a means of self defense or fighting is a waste of time for the reasons you state! There are many more effective ways.

To add, you have a higher chance of dying from high cholesterol and diet induced diseases, so you are better off practicing good nutrition and exercise as a form of self defense.
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Old 09-15-2005, 10:44 AM   #271
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I believe that Gozo Shioda sensei once said that if it works then it is aikido
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Old 09-15-2005, 11:00 AM   #272
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Darren,

Completely understand what you are saying, and don't really mean to take it out of context...

Where I would have a problem with this comment by Gozo Shioda Sensei is if it was all inclusive of everything.

To me, at least, aikido is not a stylistic set of moves/techniques that we apply, but simply a training methodology that best conveys the philosophical intent of the founder and his disciples. Therefore, to me, that comment would never apply to any thing or any fight since you cannot label "this is aikido" and "this isn't aikido". It is simply a methodolgy for training.

so therefore, aikido principles may be applied in a fight...along with many other universal principles, but aikido itself can never work in a fight because there is no such thing as aikido in practical application.

It is pointless to say aikido works or does not work in a fight...it is the fighter who works or does not work in a fight.


That said, I am sure the Gozo Shioda Sensei meant that aikido must follow the correct universal principles, therefore if it works, then the technique is following the correct universal principles, therefore, it must be aikido. The logic of the argument is 100% correct. I am just saying you cannot label it aikido in a fight.

Hope this makes some sense!
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Old 09-15-2005, 11:50 AM   #273
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
Benjamin wrote:

You and me see eye to eye. Go back and look at many of my post...only you said it much better.

I think aikido or any martial art as a means of self defense or fighting is a waste of time for the reasons you state! There are many more effective ways.

To add, you have a higher chance of dying from high cholesterol and diet induced diseases, so you are better off practicing good nutrition and exercise as a form of self defense.
I completely agree. The main reason I do martial arts is for fun, exercise and the mental and physical challenges. However, if I am going to do a martial art for those mentioned things, I would prefer it be one that is more practical for self defense. It is very unlikely that I will ever have to use it in that way but the more benefits I can get out of my training the better.
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Old 09-15-2005, 12:14 PM   #274
rob_liberti
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

There was a pretty good old story about some Japanese godan who was visiting his friends outside Japan and they asked him if aikido worked. He told them that he had no idea. So a couple guys started to throw punches at him and he was pleasantly suprised that it seemed to work just fine for him. I understand that the friends were probably not UFC guys, but it's a good story.

I am curious about that teacher of Robert John (check out his post in the open discussions) . The teacher doesn't speficially do aikido but he seems to have taken the body coordination of aikido to quite an advanced level and was able to handle an MT fighter fairly easily. Cool stuff.

Rob
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Old 09-16-2005, 07:45 AM   #275
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote:
probably not UFC guys,
I was watching a Chuck Lidell UFC fight the other night. The commentators were taking about his great defense against take downs. As I watch him, IMHO, he seemed to pull when pushed and pushed when pulled over extending the attack and taking balance, then stepping off the line in a circular step and letting the attacker fall. Look pretty Aiki and effective to me.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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