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Old 04-07-2005, 09:20 AM   #226
Justin Gaar
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Uriah Gardner wrote:
That's because non-Aikidoka trolls keep bringing it back. It makes them feel more secure in whatever system they study even though the opinion is just that, an opinion and it's based on ignorance.

The vast majority of the time it's from people who are in striking systems and want to be Bruce Lee, or Van Damme, or some other movie star.
Really though, who is a non-aikidoka. I mean i know what it means and all, i'm not ignorant. But some people, non-aikidoka or not have opinions that to them matter and ultimately thats all that matters. Is that they feel it matters to them. But seriously, I think this thread is getting out of hand.

If you arrest a mime, do you have tell him he has the right to remain silent?
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Old 04-07-2005, 10:21 AM   #227
samurai_kenshin
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Justin Gaar wrote:
Really though, who is a non-aikidoka. I mean i know what it means and all, i'm not ignorant. But some people, non-aikidoka or not have opinions that to them matter and ultimately thats all that matters. Is that they feel it matters to them. But seriously, I think this thread is getting out of hand.
I'm being a bit annoyed by this thread too. I have seen first hand, the practical application of aikido, and that was in a street fight when my cousin was nearly mugged in front of my house. He used a nice shihonage from kata dori on the first guy, and the second guy he dropped with tsuki kotegaishi (i was young, so i have no idea how he set up for it, but now that i do aikido i sort of understand). Needless to say the other two guys were so shocked they ran away.

Good judgment comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgment.
-Barry LePatner
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Old 04-07-2005, 12:44 PM   #228
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:
Oddly enough, I was surfing rec.martial-arts and stumbled on a thread where some BJJ/Shoot/Grappler types who cross-train in Aikido, or who have done an Aikido, offer an appraisal that's not all bad. They're not necessarily happy with the cooperative nature of thr training (which IMHO is a bit like saying the Yankees coulda beat the Red Sox if they'd just go a field goal kick in, but I digress), but they seem to like how well the techiques can work, paritcularly on those who don't train for them. Here is the link to google's archive of that thread (I hope):

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/...df0d8257c9d59f

Nice to have some endorsement!

Mike
I find they are not happy with the cooperative nature of the art because they do not have breadth of experience. Your average person training in MMA/NHB is in teens to early 20s. They tend to focus on "combat effectiveness" on what works 80% of the time. Nothing wrong with that, but I find that in the long run it is helpful to train slow and methodical. It wasn't until I started studying aikido that I unlearned some bad habits. Some of these guys are a little shocked when they see me and my MMA instructor who it very good btw go at it. It is slow methodical and somewhat graceful, but powerful at the same time.

For the most part they haven't taken the time to understand the training methodology behind aikido, nor are most of them ready for it at that stage of their life or development.
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Old 04-07-2005, 01:25 PM   #229
MitchMZ
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

When working with people with street experience, you can learn just how effective a lot of the techniques/principles are. For instance, I find fast, strong, intrusive irimi movements really suprise people (not to mention totally breach their center.) I think Aikido techniqes are so effective because they are so unique. (AKA: hardly anyone has ever seen them before.)

I have a friend that was a seasoned street fighter that was interested in what I was taking for martial arts; so, I asked him to attack (grab) and I entered in, then told him to try and elbow me in the kidney...I then cut down on the inside of the striking elbow and did tenkan and then executed irmi nage movement...stopping right as I broke his balance so that he didn't fall. His comment, "@#$%, that could really hurt if you did that to someone on concrete!"
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Old 04-07-2005, 05:30 PM   #230
Hagen Seibert
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

YEAH
This thread is unterminable: It will still go on when we´re all dead.

In a way, it´s a strength of AikiWeb.
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Old 04-08-2005, 03:31 PM   #231
Bodhi
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

"I have a friend that was a seasoned street fighter that was interested in what I was taking for martial arts; so, I asked him to attack (grab) and I entered in, then told him to try and elbow me in the kidney...I then cut down on the inside of the striking elbow and did tenkan and then executed irmi nage movement...stopping right as I broke his balance so that he didn't fall. His comment, "@#$%, that could really hurt if you did that to someone on concrete!"

Next time you work with your friend, just ask him to attack, dont tell him how and where to attack! Let him attack with his own intentions, fullspeed, wherever and however he wants, without you knowing what he is going to do!
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Old 04-09-2005, 08:34 AM   #232
Morpheus
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Justin Gaar wrote:
Really though, who is a non-aikidoka. I mean i know what it means and all, i'm not ignorant. But some people, non-aikidoka or not have opinions that to them matter and ultimately thats all that matters. Is that they feel it matters to them. But seriously, I think this thread is getting out of hand.
Someone who doesn't practice Aikido, and doesn't understand the effectiveness of Aikido. Their opinion may matter to them but does that make it a valid opinion?

If I say you have three tails and no eyes, does that make it so?

Qasim

**************************************
"If the enemy thinks of the mountains, attack like the sea; and if he thinks of the sea, attack like the mountains. - Miyamoto Musashi - 1584 - 1645
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Old 04-09-2005, 02:43 PM   #233
Jake Karlins
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I don't know if this addresses all of the issues here, I won't read through the billion or so posts in this thread... ...but one potential issue with training can be dealing with non-Aikido style attacks (punches that aren't like sword-thrusts, wrestling tackles), and of course, the principles for defense are still the same, but saying that and actually training with nontraditional attacks are two different things. Anyway, what I really meant to say when I started this post- I just took a class today where my sensei went over dealing with boxing style jabs, tackles, trips, in general mixing it up, and it was not only a lot of fun, but it felt like good training. My point- good to mix the more traditional training with training in how to deal with other styles of attack. And may this thread run forever! All hail the invincible thread!
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Old 04-09-2005, 03:16 PM   #234
wendyrowe
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Jake Karlins wrote:
...I just took a class today where my sensei went over dealing with boxing style jabs, tackles, trips, in general mixing it up...
Could you tell us which techniques you used against each type of attack? People here and on different threads on different forums ask which to use, so it would be very interesting to hear which your sensei recommended.
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Old 04-09-2005, 10:51 PM   #235
MitchMZ
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Aikido has proven itself effective for many things. It has given me purpose and direction in my life, as well as made me a better overall martial artist. I have nothing to prove to anyone because I've witnessed Aikido techniques being used effectively by people that had a relatively low amount of training in the dojo. I've seen skeptical people humbled, as well as Aikidoka humbled by people with no formal training.

To be honest, Aikido reminds me a lot of Judo or wrestling...you have to have good timing and technique, because more often than not even a person with minimal amount of training will be able to resist a throw if they see it coming. You shouldn't be "trying" to perform a technique...it should mesh with the movement of their body and yours. Easier said than done.

Personally, I feel very few people have actually gotten to the level of say, true Judo or Aikido, etc. I know I'm not even remotely close. If I ever get shodan I still won't even be close. I'll just have a very adequate command of the basics at that level.
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Old 05-07-2005, 12:38 PM   #236
samurai_kenshin
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Y'know what would really be the post to end all posts in this thread? It's not Aikido that doesn't work, But your aikido doesn't work!

Good judgment comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgment.
-Barry LePatner
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Old 05-07-2005, 01:08 PM   #237
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Well for that to be said "your Aikido doesn't work" first someone needs to prove to the world that AIKIDO dose in fact "work", if we had one sound example of it working. If there were a street fight dominated by and Aikidoka caught on the news, or an Aikidoka entered a professional competition. Something besides myths and rumors. Again I mean working from a basically empty handed fighting situation. Lots of people know it works to make people happier more productive human beings, most of use have seen this in the Dojo, so no one asks dose it work in that perspective. I personally know it works in a weapons fight, maybe I should find a video of that and put it up.

-Chris Hein

Last edited by ChrisHein : 05-07-2005 at 01:11 PM.
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Old 05-08-2005, 08:38 AM   #238
aikigirl10
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I dont see how in Gods name u can find Brazilian jiujitsu effective and not aikido.. makes no sense.
-paige
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Old 05-08-2005, 12:38 PM   #239
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Hahahahah, that statement has to be a joke.
Look at what happend in martial arts history about 12 years ago.

-Chris Hein
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Old 05-08-2005, 01:59 PM   #240
Bodhi
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

"I dont see how in Gods name u can find Brazilian jiujitsu effective and not aikido.. makes no sense."
-paige

What color is the sky in your world?


"Hahahahah, that statement has to be a joke.
Look at what happend in martial arts history about 12 years ago."

-Chris Hein


Chris, people dont want to talk about what really happens, they dont like to be takin out of their confort zones, especially if they feel they have found a worthwhile pursuit! Its also much more fun to talk about mystical things and all the great feats of the old masters! These kinds of discussions have been going on sense i was a kid, probly always will.


BTW, when i was living in Sac i trained with alot of guys, anywhere from northern cali and the bay area, down to LA and San Diego. Im in Phoenix AZ now but if im ever back out Fresno way or your over here, we should play! Also, maybe you can introduce me to some of the women in your myspace friends comment area, especially Andrea, Heather, and Kuya LOL


J
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Old 05-08-2005, 03:17 PM   #241
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

It's interesting to see that to this day some people still relate fighting ability to a martial art or training method and not the particular individual who does the fighting.

Interesting.

LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
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Old 05-08-2005, 04:33 PM   #242
Aristeia
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Hi Larry
The tone of your post indicates that you think this is a fallacy? I agree, individual attributes are important but the style can make a huge difference. OItherwise why have styles at all?

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 05-08-2005, 04:34 PM   #243
Jorx
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
It's interesting to see that to this day some people still relate fighting ability to a martial art or training method and not the particular individual who does the fighting.

Interesting.

LC
well to NOT to do that would be the same to NOT relate sprinters abilit y to raining possibilities

I am sorry but training methods do play a VERY big part.
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Old 05-08-2005, 04:57 PM   #244
Bodhi
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

The way you have been training plays a key role in how and what you will do when its for real!
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Old 05-08-2005, 04:59 PM   #245
Ketsan
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
It's interesting to see that to this day some people still relate fighting ability to a martial art or training method and not the particular individual who does the fighting.

Interesting.

LC
It's combination of the strengths and weakness of the art plus the way they are taught added to the individuals ability to use them effectively.
If the art is ineffective then no matter how well learned it is it will always remain ineffective. If the art isn't taught properly then it wont be learned properly and finally even if the person learns it properly and it's a good solid set of techniques, failure to apply them properly will still result in failure.

It stands to reason that not all arts are equal. Some will prepare you better than others.

Last edited by Ketsan : 05-08-2005 at 05:02 PM.
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Old 05-08-2005, 06:27 PM   #246
Bodhi
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

"If the art isn't taught properly then it wont be learned properly and finally even if the person learns it properly and it's a good solid set of techniques, failure to apply them properly will still result in failure."


Like i have always said, KNOWLEDGE IS NOT POWER, THE ABILITY TO APPLY YOUR KNOWLEDGE, ESPECIALLY UNDER PRESSURE, IS TRUE POWER!
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Old 05-08-2005, 07:54 PM   #247
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Many assumptions by some folks.

Quote:
Jason Potenza wrote:
"
Like i have always said, KNOWLEDGE IS NOT POWER, THE ABILITY TO APPLY YOUR KNOWLEDGE, ESPECIALLY UNDER PRESSURE, IS TRUE POWER!
Exactly. Very concisely put.

Training only helps how one operates under pressure to a point. It is by no means irrelevant to the development of effective skills, but there are many, many other factors that are equally, if not more important and are not necessarily trained in any martial arts dojo if we are talking about self defence in the real world.

Some things can be trained, others need a different type of stimulus to improve.

And the reason there are different styles is because different human beings have different takes and approaches on what amounts to the same elements that affect the human condition. There is nothing new under the sun, just different takes on the same old themes.

The only reason I made the comment is because some may think MA training may equate directly to self defence training. In reality there are a few other factors that come into play that are not taught in the vast majority of dojo, and it has nothing to do with techniques or fighting skills. That is the easy part.

Take 10 folks from any martial art or training method, put them in identical real life danger or pressure situations and you will get a variety of results even though training methods may be identical. Pressure tends to have an interesting way of showing us who we really are, outside of the delusions and protection of the dojo.

LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
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Old 05-08-2005, 07:56 PM   #248
CNYMike
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Jason Potenza wrote:
"I dont see how in Gods name u can find Brazilian jiujitsu effective and not aikido.. makes no sense."
-paige

What color is the sky in your world?


"Hahahahah, that statement has to be a joke.
Look at what happend in martial arts history about 12 years ago."

-Chris Hein


Chris, people dont want to talk about what really happens, they dont like to be takin out of their confort zones, especially if they feel they have found a worthwhile pursuit! Its also much more fun to talk about mystical things and all the great feats of the old masters! These kinds of discussions have been going on sense i was a kid, probly always will.
Oh, puh-LEAAAZE. Could you be more condescending if you tried?

When the Gracies first hit the scene (which was more than 12 years ago, closer to 15 or 20), I was plus-plus-nonplussed. Even though I hadn't done more than traditional karate and Aikido at that point, my first karate sensei had made a point of saying some things over and over again: Every move has a counter-move; you won't win all the time; and someone out there knows something you don't. So when the Gracies claimed to be able to take on all comers, my first though was, These guys are proving sensei was right -- they have counters to their opponents moves, the other guys are losing for once, and they know something other people don't. So I didn't see what all the fuss was about, or why "stand up striking" systems were in a tizzy.

Fast forward to 1997, and I started taking Kali at the now-defunct East West Martial Arts Academy under Guro Kevin Seaman, which is also where I began training under Guro Andy Astle. Guro Kevin is heavily interested in grappling, not just from Shoot and BJJ but it's incorporated into Kali. (I'm actually a little hazy on what he knows from where, now that I think about it. I know that Sensei Eric Paulson is Guro Kevin's grappling instructor, but other than that, I'm hazy on his lineage outside Kali. Although I think -- don't quote me on this --- that BJJ is part of the Jun Fan/JKD curriculum, but I can't say for certain because I'm not a Jun Fan person. But I digress.) So even though Kali has a lot of stuff going on standing up, I periodically got exposed to th grappling system; and Guro Kevin also did a couple of grappling systems. I wouldn't claim to be any good at it -- far from it -- but I'm acquainted with the basic positions. But something I also became acquainted with a plaque on the wall of the academy, a list of precepts Guro Kevin wanted his students to follow, and the one that sticks in my mind was, "I will refrain from criticizing other martial arts styles and systems; they all have something to offer." That plus their approach to looking at the arts in general during their lectures, as well as the fact that I could go into East West for "open training" and do karate kata without any word from any avowed kata haters about it imparted to me a live-and-let-live with attitude towards the arts: Some arts specialize in certain things and neglect others, but that's ok, that's the way they are; you will still benefit from doing it. I don't know if Guros Kevin and Andy intended me to think that way, but that's the impact they had. (BTW, Guro Kevin once illustrated the need to practice regularly by saying something like, "'Oh I don't want to practice my basic kata!' Mr. Gallagher does his forms every day." Actually it was closer to every other day then; barely once a week now. But you get the idea.)

So when I return to Aikido after 16 years -- and although I'd been thinking about it for a while, there's a yarn and a half about what gave me the final push -- I'm not looking at it and saying, "It should do this, that, and the other thing." I will, in fact, agree that the Aikido I'm doing doesn't go near those areas, no question! But my attitude is, "They don't do those things? Ok. They don't do those things. So what do they do?" And I work on trying to learn what is there than lambaste it for what's not.

If you want to shoehorn Aikido into looking like every other MMA system, fine, go right ahead. It's your prerogative. Knock yourself out. But if you want to believe that people who don't hop on your bandwagon are in denial or hiding from the facts of life .... Well, it doesn't apply to me. And I'm probably not the only one. So forgive me if I don't go along with that.
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Old 05-08-2005, 08:00 PM   #249
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

As far as assumptions go - case in point.

Quote:
Jorgen Matsi wrote:
well to NOT to do that would be the same to NOT relate sprinters abilit y to raining possibilities

I am sorry but training methods do play a VERY big part.
Sprinters train to sprint on a track, which is identical to the environment in which they will be sprinting for real. Do you train for self defence in everyday clothes on the open street with guys who have real weapons, seriously intent on killing you for your wallet?

"The best preparation for an even is the event itself." - Bruce Lee.

Equating success in sport to successful training methods is easy. The training environment and the event environment are pretty much the same, the only difference being maybe screaming crowds and the guy next to you in the case of sprinting.

Gambatte.

LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
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Old 05-08-2005, 08:18 PM   #250
eyrie
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
Well for that to be said "your Aikido doesn't work" first someone needs to prove to the world that AIKIDO dose in fact "work", if we had one sound example of it working. If there were a street fight dominated by and Aikidoka caught on the news, or an Aikidoka entered a professional competition. Something besides myths and rumors. Again I mean working from a basically empty handed fighting situation. Lots of people know it works to make people happier more productive human beings, most of use have seen this in the Dojo, so no one asks dose it work in that perspective. I personally know it works in a weapons fight, maybe I should find a video of that and put it up.
-Chris Hein
On any given day at any given time, can you be 100% effective ALL of the time? It is not the martial art that doesn't work, it's the martial artist that cannot make it work.

Even Helio Gracie lost a few fights - one in which he had his arm broken by Kimura. Name any other MA great, and tell me they've never had a bad day, or never lost a fight - EVER? Even Musashi lost 1 battle, out of 60 contests.

BTW, a street fight is not the same thing as a life/death self-defence situation.

Aikido works. I know MY aikido sometimes works, and I definitely know I need more practice....

Ignatius
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