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Old 01-24-2003, 12:19 AM   #1
bob_stra
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Generation of power

Hi folks

I'm curious to know abt the generation of power & kuzushi specifically in the paired aiki-taitso exercise.

(For example, your right grabs my right, I enter, step around you, lead you in a circle and project)

In this situation, is the unbalancing primarily done via the tai-sabaki or the semi circle made by the hand as I enter? (ideally, the answer is both, but...)

Do they both happen simultaneously, or does one preceed the other?

Last edited by bob_stra : 01-24-2003 at 12:23 AM.
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Old 01-24-2003, 08:12 PM   #2
NagaBaba
 
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Re: Generation of power

Quote:
Bob Strahinjevich (bob_stra) wrote:
Hi folks

I'm curious to know abt the generation of power & kuzushi specifically in the paired aiki-taitso exercise.

(For example, your right grabs my right, I enter, step around you, lead you in a circle and project)

In this situation, is the unbalancing primarily done via the tai-sabaki or the semi circle made by the hand as I enter? (ideally, the answer is both, but...)

Do they both happen simultaneously, or does one preceed the other?
You got all this wrong.

Unbalancing is not done with waving hands or only hips. You must change distance while staing connecting to attacker.You must use all your body and right angel of enter, also you must somehow lock his arm to preserve connection. He is not stupid, and will not hold your arm 10 minuts all the way when you are busy doing you circles, for sur he will execute next attack with other arm, head or leg. He surly will do that!.

good luck

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 01-24-2003, 11:20 PM   #3
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Hey O'unpronouncable one. Long time. Hope you are enjoying the Canadian winter. That's one of the things I do not miss.

We call this effect Ido Ryoku - the power of movement. To generate it nothing must be done in isolation and when done right it is unstopable. The ability to use this effect has been described to me as the difference between a good teacher of Aikido and an Aikido master.

Strangely enough while I was talking to someone in the know about this I was told that some people (in other styles) mean Ido Ryoku when they talk about Ki. He quickly added that most people who talk about Ki don't understand Ido Ryoku. Take those statements as you will.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 01-26-2003, 03:48 PM   #4
NagaBaba
 
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Hi Peter,

This year we have really nice winter, no less then -40C with a wind. So we can practice with all open windows. This is very good reason do move a whole body and move rather fast!Those who stop, they freeze instantly forever. Natural selection, as you see. We follow Founder's path - be one with Nature ;-D

When finaly you are finishing your vacations in Japan and come down to do some real practice in Quebec?

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 01-27-2003, 10:04 PM   #5
JW
 
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I would appreciate more information or discussion about the concept of Ido Ryoku very much. Please help me out..

Everybody knows that things are supposed to be done simultaneously, and moving with a blending relationship to the ongoing attack is necessary.. but what does someone "in the know" about Ido Ryoku add to that?
--JW
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Old 01-28-2003, 02:02 AM   #6
bob_stra
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Quote:
Jonathan Wong (JW) wrote:
Everybody knows that things are supposed to be done simultaneously, and moving with a blending relationship to the ongoing attack is necessary.. but what does someone "in the know" about Ido Ryoku add to that?

--JW
and more to the point, how much is done where and by what? For example, a lot of the tecniques in judo use upper body strength in combination with centrifugal force. Wrestling throws are reliant on heavy use of the legs and a sudden change in level.

I've still not figured out the right way to perform kuzushi in aikido to be honest. Thus the initial question
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Old 01-28-2003, 03:23 AM   #7
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Hi Bob;

I wish I had mpegs to show what I'm talking about but in Shodokan dojos at least once per class, often several, a basic exersise called Go no sen kuzushi is performed. This involves a series of grips and reactions and is often used, besides teaching kuzushi, to get the blood going. THere are quite a few Shodokan/Tomiki dojos in Australia. I am pretty sure if you went to watch a class you would see the exercise.

In Shodokan Aikido there is a lot of emphasis on kuzushi with the term identical in use to that found in Judo. I think it is a fallicy to say there is no strength used in Aikido. It can be said that skill dominates strength or more specifically skill is knowing when and how to turn it on. I am fond of reminding absolute beginners that muscle through technique that they have the strength, here we teach them to use it.

I think the balance breaking power comes from the body movement, the Ido Ryoku I was talking about. Just turning and redirecting is not going to do it. Anyway, the best I can do is suggest you watch the clips from my Dojo homepage below. Some good examples of viable kuzushi there.
Quote:
Bob Strahinjevich (bob_stra) wrote:
and more to the point, how much is done where and by what? For example, a lot of the tecniques in judo use upper body strength in combination with centrifugal force. Wrestling throws are reliant on heavy use of the legs and a sudden change in level.

I've still not figured out the right way to perform kuzushi in aikido to be honest. Thus the initial question

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 01-28-2003, 05:26 AM   #8
ian
 
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Em, this is different from the concept I have of aikido.

Although stationary techniques may be useful initially, I think good Aikido requires initial movement from the uke. Now this can be encouraged by moving (and thus evading the attack, even if grabbed in a stationary way) or an atemi, or by leading (moving before the grab).

One of the biggest differences I find with [most] jujitsu practitioners compared with aikido, is that they cannot respond to a change in ukes body movement or direction and they are extremely vulnerable to counter attacks because they are trying to move uke, rather than using ukes direction and force.

We do see Ueshiba using a whole body 'pull' especially in his younger years, but it does not seem to occur as much when he is older - he tends to lead a lot more with his hand or distract with an atemi. (One of my favourites is a suwari waza technqiue where he has been doing lots of entering ikkyo from grabs, and he raises his hand towards ukes face to be grabbed, and as uke goes to grab it he pulls his hand away with perfect timing and uke lands forwards on his face) - with no contact.

Some of you may feel this is unreal - and I think 'cos of the reality of getting into stationary situations it is necessary to practise; however in such situations it is often too late and it is better to learn to utilise the initial grabbing movement.

Ian

(P.S. when I say lead - I don't mean where an uke mindlessly chases the other persons hand around the dojo for 5 minutes).

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
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Old 01-30-2003, 08:29 PM   #9
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Quote:
Bob Strahinjevich (bob_stra) wrote:
I've still not figured out the right way to perform kuzushi in aikido to be honest. Thus the initial question
In aikido we don't have much contact with attacker, surface of contact is very small. That's why one must figure out differents ways of perform kuzushi then in judo or wrestling.

I'd say some of basic key elemets are:

1. moment of contact is moment of breaking balance, BUT it's a tori who decide about this timing.

2. angle of entering in attack

3. using vertical and horizontal directions all together by whole body in the moment of contact

Universal advice how to break balance doesn't existe. You must discover yourself, by practice, basic elements, which you can use against every atack in every situation. Unfortunatly it is NOT intelectual research, but physical one. By feeling attacker's body, and not by developing great theories about kuzushi.

my 2 canadian cents

pslease forget about tenkaning and leading uke around. This a way to nowhere Use weapons instead to learn.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 01-30-2003, 08:47 PM   #10
NagaBaba
 
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Quote:
Ian Dodkins (ian) wrote:
I think good Aikido requires initial movement from the uke.

Ian
Please don't take me wrong, but this is very beginners concept.

If you want to do spontanous techniques (and THIS is aikido about ) you must be able to decide WHEN and HOW you will meet attacker.

You simply can't depend of his will, can you? One must be able to break attacker's balance in ANY situation, with no limits, no exceptions.

But to be able to do it tori must have a CHOICE. So before trying to imitate Founder's techniques when he was older, we must be able to control uke phisically by moving him at our will. Otherwise it will be always fake, poor imitation.

Tori is center of "Univers" and it is his responsability to move attacker around him like electron moving around center of atome. This is only way to figure out how REALLY things work. This way respects laws of Nature.

One can't burn stages of developpement of aikido jumping directly to "divine techniques of Founder", sorry!

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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