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Old 03-07-2003, 08:25 PM   #126
Neil Mick
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You all lost me, how this war with Iraq is "protecting" our freedoms. AFAIK, this war is eroding our freedoms.
 
Old 03-08-2003, 07:10 AM   #127
Michael Neal
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I have the same freedom I had before 9/11, I am not a terrorist so I am not really worried about my civil liberties right now.
 
Old 03-08-2003, 05:56 PM   #128
Neil Mick
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Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
I have the same freedom I had before 9/11, I am not a terrorist so I am not really worried about my civil liberties right now.
Now, why am I stunningly unsurprised, since
Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
I am more worried right now about a nuclear bomb being set off or a biological weapon being unleashed than I am about the possiblity of someone being wrongly accused of a crime.
Pardon me, while I trot down to the corner store, to get my plastic sheeting and duct tape (all to be stored in my nuclear bomb-shelter, of course. Just remember the Golden Rule: "Duck, and Cover!").
 
Old 03-08-2003, 07:21 PM   #129
DanielR
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Michael,

If you're not of Middle-Eastern descent, you probably really don't have to worry about your civil liberties. However, I think you should worry about civili liberties of other people as much as you do about your own.

I was told about a case that was recently described in NY Times. I didn't read it personally, but the person who told me about it is, in my opinion, very objective and wouldn't make this up.

Anyway, a guy got arrested as a terrorism suspect after getting off a plane in NY. Some lawyer was assigned to defend him, and she showed up at a hearing in the court all sure that since no charges were presented, she would be able to get that guy out. The DA, however, told her that that person was turned over to the military, and the military can hold him indefinitely without any trials, hearings or lawyers. So, basically, there's no case to hear and they (the lawyer, the DA and the court) can all go home. The judge agreed.

I don't know if I got this right, but the bottom line is rather disturbing. You can get arrested, and then, without any due process (or maybe that's how due process looks these days), turned over to the military, who can basically do whatever they like with you. Isn't this a bit scary?

I imagine one could make an argument that the times are such that if the guy is a potential terrorist, the military should be able to do its thing. But what if he's not a terrorist and there was some sort of mixup? How do you ensure rights of innocent people? Do you want to sacrifice those rights for a greater good? If you do (and I think it's a legitimate standpoint), then you do have something to worry about. The next innocent civilian could be you.

Last edited by DanielR : 03-08-2003 at 07:24 PM.

Daniel
 
Old 03-08-2003, 08:47 PM   #130
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Neil,

I think the current thought is that the war would eliminate 1 part of a major world threat from a regime that can mass WMD on not just the U.S. but the Middle East and Europe.

 
Old 03-09-2003, 12:21 AM   #131
Neil Mick
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Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
Neil,

I think the current thought is that the war would eliminate 1 part of a major world threat from a regime that can mass WMD on not just the U.S. but the Middle East and Europe.
With respect, Kevin: this is Orwellian double-speak.

I cannot say this enough: there is, simply, no proof that Hussein has WMD, nor is there proof that he is dealing in WMD, with other terrorists.

Powell said that there are links between Hussein, and al Qaeda. If he, you, Bush or anyone can produce any creditable evidence, I'll take a step back, apologize and proceed to settle down to my meal of tasty humble pie.

But, the proof just isn't there (or, if it is, it hasn't been produced. And with all the hoopla surrounding Powell's presentation where he was going to "show all," I doubt very much that proof exists).

I thought the idea was to "get" OBL, not gallavant around the world, blowing up "suspected" terrorists. After we turn Iraq into the next disaster area, I suppose that Iran will be next on the hit-parade.

And, I suspect that Bush (if he gets his way) will claim "new evidence" has arisen of Iranian leaders brokering dirty deals with OBL.

When will this violence end?

I'm sorry if I sound bitter, I really am. But I listen to Kathy Kelly (who is in Iraq, now), of Voices in the Wilderness describing the grim fatalism expressed by Iraqi's when facing the imminent war, I hear her incredulous dismay when she talks about Americans fearing a terrorist attack while Baghdad prepares for "Shock and Awe," and when I read about ppl like Michael Neal worrying more about bombs and anthrax than about his fellow Americans getting locked up and having their civil liberties denied, it sometimes makes me want to scream.
 
Old 03-09-2003, 12:57 AM   #132
Neil Mick
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Quote:
Daniel Rozenbaum (DanielR) wrote:
Anyway, a guy got arrested as a terrorism suspect after getting off a plane in NY. Some lawyer was assigned to defend him, and she showed up at a hearing in the court all sure that since no charges were presented, she would be able to get that guy out. The DA, however, told her that that person was turned over to the military, and the military can hold him indefinitely without any trials, hearings or lawyers. So, basically, there's no case to hear and they (the lawyer, the DA and the court) can all go home. The judge agreed.
Daniel,

It sounds as if the person you're referring to is Jose Padilla, none other than the famous "dirty bomber," himself. And yes, you have the basic facts correct: currently, he is still not charged, detained at a military prison and the gov't is still pushing to deny him access to his lawyer.

"While Padilla—a jailhouse Muslim convert with a rap sheet listing murder—is hardly America's sweetheart, his fate carries implications for all Americans. Newman has largely avoided saying so, fearful of grandstanding. But in an interview last week, she voiced the stakes that have prompted the ACLU and other civil rights groups to file papers in Padilla's name.

To the average American, says Newman, a Bush win would mean: "You can be locked up for the rest of your natural years based on [the president's] say-so. Based on your neighbor, who doesn't like you and reports you. Based on a combination of circumstances that together don't look too good. And you wouldn't have a chance to say, 'Hey, wait a minute. Let me explain.' "

http://www.refuseandresist.org/artic...tance/db121402

http://www.chargepadilla.org/docs/Ne...y01152003.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp...&notFound=true

http://www.chargepadilla.org/
 
Old 03-09-2003, 05:35 AM   #133
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Thanks for the info, Neil. Again, I don't necessarily say it's not a legitimate anti-terror tactics, but I do think this comes at the expence of everybody's civil liberties.

Daniel
 
Old 03-10-2003, 02:18 AM   #134
Neil Mick
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Glad to be of assistance.

This case sort of reminds me of Harry Flynt, of Hustler magazine, when he went to court to protect free speech. Not the nicest man in the world, but not-nice-men are often the benchmarks for laws that protect social liberties (look at Miranda, for instance).
 
Old 03-10-2003, 01:37 PM   #135
Michael Neal
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Quote:
How do you ensure rights of innocent people? Do you want to sacrifice those rights for a greater good? If you do (and I think it's a legitimate standpoint), then you do have something to worry about
It is obvious that this guy was not an American citizen so I don't know how it applies to me.
 
Old 03-10-2003, 06:02 PM   #136
George S. Ledyard
 
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Civil Liberties

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
I have the same freedom I had before 9/11, I am not a terrorist so I am not really worried about my civil liberties right now.
This is precisely the attitude which has astounded me about this whole civil liberties issue. "It's not my problem".

Well I have news for everyone. Every single loss of liberty that takes place now will still be there when the political winds change. When the swing towards liberal values takes place and these right wing folks are out of power they'll go back to screaming about the encroachment of Federal power. We'll hear about Waco, Ruby Ridge, allover again and then they'll really start screaming because those same oppressive powers which they voted for thinking it would only apply to those wired guys with turbans, brown skin, and funny looking churches all of a sudden will start applying to them.

Anyone think these guys will be in power forever? I certainly doubt it. If you read the text of the Patriot Act II which is under consideration by the administration, you will see a huge reduction in what constitutes "probable cause" which is what governs the ability of law enforcement people to detain you. It is the first line of defense aginst all other invasion of privacy. Essentially, the new law will make it possible to detain a citizen simply because a member of the security apparatus has deemed him a security threat. You are no longer guaranteed the right to a speedy trial, the right to face your accusers, the right to counsel. You can be detained and the authorities do not even have to tell anyone that you have been. They do not need to tell anyone where you are. These laws are designed to be used against "terrorists". But those of us who have been around for a while can remember how J Edgar Hoover resisted all attempts at control by using the information contained in the files he had collected over a lifetime in the FBI. We can remember how LBJ used the IRS to punish anyone who opposed his will. Nixon thought everyone who opposed the war was a communist or at least a sympathizer and used the intelligence services for all sorts of dirty tricks against citizens who merely disagreed with his policies. Democrat / Republican doesn't matter. An administration will use whatever weapons it has to maintain power.

Do you think that the loss of liberties that you are so unconcerned about right now will automatically be restored when the political tides turn? Those of you who are convinced of the world wide liberal conspiracy better wake up as these same laws will be the ones used to round your folks up when they start getting uppity against some liberal administration. This is a sword that doesn't care who it cuts.

I can't believe that so many of the right wing folks who have screamed for years about the erosion of our civil liberties will stay silent as the biggest single reduction of our freedoms since the Alien and Sedition Acts takes place. Makes me kind of think that all their talk about Rights was only about Christian White folks and not for all citizens.

Well it'll come back to you. Use these weapons against the citizens you don't like now and you'll see them used against the ones you do and it'll be too late to do much about it then.

Last edited by George S. Ledyard : 03-10-2003 at 06:08 PM.

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Old 03-10-2003, 07:39 PM   #137
Michael Neal
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None of these laws apply to American citizens, the laws that many conservatives complain about are.

I also find it interesting to hear all of the stereotyping from you while complaining about its practice.

I do agee though that a future left wing adminstration will twist these laws and use them against political enemies, as we saw with the use of FBI files in the previous adminstration. So when the current threat has subsided much of these laws should be rolled back, and I am pretty sure the American public will demand it.


Last edited by Michael Neal : 03-10-2003 at 07:48 PM.
 
Old 03-10-2003, 09:29 PM   #138
George S. Ledyard
 
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Incorrect

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
None of these laws apply to American citizens, the laws that many conservatives complain about are.

I also find it interesting to hear all of the stereotyping from you while complaining about its practice.

I do agee though that a future left wing adminstration will twist these laws and use them against political enemies, as we saw with the use of FBI files in the previous adminstration. So when the current threat has subsided much of these laws should be rolled back, and I am pretty sure the American public will demand it.
The laws that the Patriot Act II will make official should it not be opposed will in fact apply to citizens and non-citizens alike. No one believes that only non-citizens are terrorists so these laws apply across the board merely requiring a suspicion on the part of security personnel that one is somehow connected to terrorists to have ones rights disappear. Once enacted these laws can be applied to any citizen simply as a tool to oppose some group which opposes government policy. Groups from the old days like the SDS, the Black Panthers, the American Indian Movement could easily have been classified as "terrorist" organizations and laws like these, if they had existed then, would almost certainly have been applied.

As for the American public demanding a rollback... historically, there have been periods of excess and yes, after tremndous damage was done to innocent citizens lives, there were infact reforms enacted. One should learn from the abuses that we should stand firm in advance rather than trying to reverse the abuses after they've taken place.

Finally, I would like to know what are the stereotypes I have been throwing around?

George S. Ledyard
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Old 03-11-2003, 07:38 AM   #139
Michael Neal
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Quote:
When the swing towards liberal values takes place and these right wing folks are out of power they'll go back to screaming about the encroachment of Federal power. We'll hear about Waco, Ruby Ridge, allover again and then they'll really start screaming because those same oppressive powers which they voted for thinking it would only apply to those wired guys with turbans, brown skin, and funny looking churches all of a sudden will start applying to them.
This is the stereotyping that I am referring to, the same old conservatives are racists propaganda and that all we care about is the unfortuante fate of a cult group under the Clinton Administration.

On a side note ... congratulations on 6th Dan!, I saw the promotions on the ASU website.
 
Old 03-11-2003, 08:32 AM   #140
George S. Ledyard
 
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Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
This is the stereotyping that I am referring to, the same old conservatives are racists propaganda and that all we care about is the unfortuante fate of a cult group under the Clinton Administration.

On a side note ... congratulations on 6th Dan!, I saw the promotions on the ASU website.
Thanks very much. I didn't realize it had been posted.

As for the stereotype, there are enough folks, some within my own family, that fit the bill that it isn't inaccurate although I will admit that it doesn't universally apply.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
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Old 03-13-2003, 04:02 AM   #141
Neil Mick
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Well, George, you tried...A for effort. It's too bad you were deflected.

I was wondering if Michael would ever get to acknowledge the logical end of your argument: that eventually, all the harsh erosions of civil liberties (presumably aimed at suspected terrorists) will, someday: blow back into the faces of Mr. Average White American. I suppose not; but you presented the argument well.

It makes me wonder who taught Mr. Neal his American history.

Good try, tho.
 
Old 03-25-2003, 09:51 AM   #142
Jappzz
 
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Aikido...

I don't know if i'm the only one who finds the promotion of armed force as a means of conflict resolving through a site like this is pretty tragic. I know this is a free forum and people may not share oppinions but hasn't it occured to anyone that this is a forum concerned with AIKIDO, a martial art created to help individuals resolve conflict and establish relative harmony.

I realize i'm propably just going to get beaten with names like "terrorist loving liberal" from mr. Neal for merely sticking my chin out. But im going to continue scince i :

1. ...live in a "free country" wich prohibits anyone from stating that my situation demands that i symphasize with "anti-american nations".

2. ...am not affiliated with any terrorist-organisation.

3. ...have the caucasian looks that keeps me and the majority of my countrymen from beeing seen as accepted collaterall casualties should we harbour any known international criminals.

4. ...Respect international law

5. ...Value human life in skyscrapers and mosques equal.

6. ...have a heart.

Peace

Jesper Arenskogh
 
Old 03-25-2003, 03:28 PM   #143
deepsoup
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Re: Re: Aikido...

Quote:
Jaime McGrath wrote:
4. Acuse us of not following "international law" as prescribed by the U.N. even though 1441 gives us the coalition of the willing (40+ nations) the right to use force
The US has never been big on 'international law', surely even you can see that. George Ledyard gave plenty of examples in a recent post.

I'll add just 4 words to his: Geneva Convention, Guantanamo Bay?

Various commentators have been vociferously (and quite rightly) condemning the Iraqis for breaching Article 14 of the Geneva Convention by parading captured American personnel on TV. Any chance that the US will start honouring the Geneva Convention for the benefit of its own captives any time soon?

Sean

x
 
Old 03-25-2003, 07:24 PM   #144
Neil Mick
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Re: Aikido...

Quote:
Jasper Arenskogh (Jappzz) wrote:
I don't know if i'm the only one who finds the promotion of armed force as a means of conflict resolving through a site like this is pretty tragic. I know this is a free forum and people may not share oppinions but hasn't it occured to anyone that this is a forum concerned with AIKIDO, a martial art created to help individuals resolve conflict and establish relative harmony.

Peace

Jesper Arenskogh
Yes, Jesper: I find it astounding, too. I mention it to non-Aikidoists from time to time in unbelieving tones. It certainly doesn't match my idea of harmony.

And yet: some ppl feel that the only realpolitik means of peace is through military strength, to preserve that peace.

I do not hold to this view (as overt military and superpower bullying are going to bring the world a great deal more violence than the momentary peace offered the American homefront, IMO), but they who believe this have their own reasons for holding this view, and I cannot fault them for this, unless I understand their perspective better.

My 2 cents...(I could say much more, but my time is short)
 
Old 03-25-2003, 07:41 PM   #145
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Re: Re: Re: Aikido...

Quote:
Sean Orchard (deepsoup) wrote:
The US has never been big on 'international law', surely even you can see that. George Ledyard gave plenty of examples in a recent post.

I'll add just 4 words to his: Geneva Convention, Guantanamo Bay?

Various commentators have been vociferously (and quite rightly) condemning the Iraqis for breaching Article 14 of the Geneva Convention by parading captured American personnel on TV. Any chance that the US will start honouring the Geneva Convention for the benefit of its own captives any time soon?

Sean

x
Give a break, there is absolutely no comparison here. We are not beating, torturing, humiliating, and killing prisoners.

Your words are ludicrous and political motivated.
 
Old 03-25-2003, 07:54 PM   #146
Neil Mick
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What blows me away is how W's blithe dismissal of the Geneva Conventions of War actually ENDANGER the captive American troops. If we don't abide by them, why should they??

And no, Sean: don't expect the US gov't to abide by the Conventions anytime soon. We're the US, the LoFW: "we" don't need no stinkin' Conventions, apparently...unless, of course, it suits our needs.

But I suspect that Michael is uninformed in the US disregard of Geneva Conventions for the prisoners at Guantanamo Bay.
 
Old 03-26-2003, 01:07 PM   #147
Jappzz
 
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I feel sorry for you Mr.McGrath. It must be exausting to feel obligated to defend military aggression to the extent that you do.

I would watch my blood-pressure if i where you. ;-)

And while we sit here pondering our rights of free speach more people die.

Love to those still left

Jesper Arenskog
 
Old 03-26-2003, 05:19 PM   #148
Neil Mick
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Thumbs up

Quote:
Jaime McGrath wrote:
Don't feel sorry for me brother as I am on the side of right and truth.

People would definatly die under Hussein this is fact, Will people die after Hussein, maybe, but at least it is an option that did not exist before.

Love that harmony.
Must be nice, always being on the side of right and truth.

As for me, I am questioning myself every single day.

I think that "respect" is still a term that you're struggling to comprehend, to judge from your posts ("lunatic fringe" moniker immediately comes to mind).
 
Old 03-26-2003, 11:38 PM   #149
Neil Mick
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Quote:
Jasper Arenskogh (Jappzz) wrote:
I feel sorry for you Mr.McGrath. It must be exausting to feel obligated to defend military aggression to the extent that you do.

I would watch my blood-pressure if i where you. ;-)

And while we sit here pondering our rights of free speach more people die.

Love to those still left

Jesper Arenskog
Yes, he DOES evoke a feeling of pity, doesn't he? Where does all this anger come from? No way to tell, as the internet only offers a narrow view of a person.

I think about something Rabbi Michael Lerner, of Tikkun, once said, about the Palestinian conflict...we all have two voices in our heads, the voice of love and the voice of anger (he also paraphrased from Zoroastrianist beliefs,,,wish I could remember his exact words). In a conflict, the voice of anger always tries to shout, while the voice of love is quiet.

When we are in an argument or feel wounded, the angry voice speaks from a place of being wounded, while the voice of love speaks from compassion.

Reaction, versus response.

Just my 2 cents.
 
Old 03-27-2003, 07:54 AM   #150
Michael Neal
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I had the same thing happen to me, someone on this board registered on Aikido Journal and started attacking me using another name, then I noticed they had the same information in their portfolios. That must have been embarrassing especially because I let them deny it before I provided the evidence. This person has stayed clear from me since.

In Neil's case you have to understand that he so radically attached to his philosopy that he will use dishonest arguments and tactics in order to advance his agenda. He then freaks out and complains to the administrator when I use a word like "fanatic" to describe him.


Last edited by Michael Neal : 03-27-2003 at 08:02 AM.
 

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