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Old 11-17-2004, 03:41 PM   #576
mj
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
daniel vanhee wrote:
As for WMD, a 10yr old raghead with an AK could be a WMD, if payed 10k by Jihad to kill our troops. so after junior dies he will go to allah and be with his 7virgins...!
This is just unacceptable.

 
Old 11-17-2004, 03:45 PM   #577
Neil Mick
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
Jun Akiyama wrote:
Hi folks,

This is my last warning on the tone of the posts in this thread. I don't care to see any more inflammatory words here. Thank you.

-- Jun
OK, I have taken Daniel's responses off ignore this once, in order to respond and to clear up a blatant falsehood, he keeps repeating.

I need to stress (as this is the nature of the falsehood) that this is not a personal attack, or inflammatory post. I apologize to Jun if he felt that my last post was inflammatory, but how do you express outrage in a manner that is non-inflammatory, to all? Or, should Jun just ban outrage from being expressed on aikiweb?

Quote:
I also like your "There's no rational argument with Niel Mick" line. Niel's argument was, we know that one unarmed individual was shot dead at close range, we know there has been a media blackout in Fallujah, we know that it was impossible to get casualties to the hospital because of the US Blockade, we know the US occupied the Hospital. It what we don't know that worries us (Neil, me and others). Given the history of US Forces the question of what US troops did when there were no camera's or witnesses is a serious question indeed. One the needs to be answered (by the way a reply is not the same thing as an answer). Or to put the question another way, how many of the dead in Fallujah were 'insurgents' before they were shot dead???
Very well said, and precisely my perspective. Nice work.
Now, onto the heart of the matter.

Quote:
daniel vanhee wrote:
Jun, you've been following this entire thread. The patterns are obvious. Mick will say something in a manner to stir everyone up. then when he gets responses he doesnt fancy, he will proceed to write his lengthy garbage in vain attempt to prove his righteousness.
You call it "garbage:" I call it proof. Until you can come up with a fact or source (which, I often do) to prove otherwise, all you have is name-calling.

Quote:
I will say what I think just as Mick does.
Say what you like: without respect behind it, it's simply grade-school slur.

Quote:
That said, its not a me vs mick. Its me saying what I think and then mick trying to discount it. It seems he does that to everyone.
Wrong again. See my recent discussion with DanielR, regarding Palestine and Israel (and no, Daniel: I have not forgotten you). No name-calling, no trying to shoo him off the thread. At one point--I even asked him to come back for more discussion.

No: I have no problem with dissenting opinion. But as I recently heard in a talk-show: it's not what you say, it's how you say it. I couldn't care less that you disagree with me; but I do care that you cannot seem to respectfully discuss issues, without resporting to slurs.

Quote:
y is so obviously self-important and abrasive a persona that his halo is on too tight, and /or he would do well to keep his ego in check.
See what I mean? Personal insult, proving nothing.

Quote:
continue to state how I think about the war and continue to support my president, his father, Reagan, and the US military and the forward movement they are making in attempting to root out our enemies and surgically eliminate(kill) them and keep killing them until they are all dead.
Good. You do that. No disrespect intended, but I firmly believe that ppl should not interfere with the religious beliefs, of others.

But since you cannot discuss an issue with respect or present documentation or sources: that's all you have...is belief.

Quote:
Just as they did to us. That is war.
Which, is exactly the justification for the Japanese Internment Camps...remember them? "Gotta put THEM in camps, because they might be spying on US."

Quote:
So sad too bad, if that chaps the lefty's hides.
Your beliefs do nothing to my hide. Your disprespect, OTOH: limits discussion and threatens thread-lock; which, I suspect, is your real reason for the disrespect.
 
Old 11-17-2004, 03:49 PM   #578
Neil Mick
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
mark johnston wrote:
This is just unacceptable.
I completely agree. And respectfully, Jun: I request that you consider booting Daniel V off the thread until he learns to abide by the guidelines. AFAIC, he seems to be the major source of the abuse.

Again, I have no problem with anyone participating on this thread, so long as they leave the personal, and racist (as above), remarks out of it.
 
Old 11-17-2004, 04:08 PM   #579
vanstretch
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Sean .look deeper into yourself before pointing the finger. The so called "racist" term raghead is used throughout the military in reference to our enemy OBL. He is wearing a rag isnt he? Oh so sorry to offend you. I walk on eggshells for no one. An our enemy is essentially the Islamic Jihad Militant Muslims who hate us-and just so happen to wear the towels or rags or whatever on their heads. Hell, it makes and easier target if you ask me. But thanks for your valuable insights.
 
Old 11-17-2004, 04:14 PM   #580
vanstretch
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Mick you make it personal all the time. check your tone and look at how you respond. Your whole tone is know-it-all and reeks of your arrogant attitude. that is the problem I have always had with you Mick. You are pompous and your tone is also full of attitude. Jun I ask that you remove mick for these reasons.
 
Old 11-17-2004, 04:18 PM   #581
akiy
 
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
I request that you consider booting Daniel V off the thread until he learns to abide by the guidelines
Quote:
daniel vanhee wrote:
Jun I ask that you remove mick for these reasons.
Please leave the moderating decisions up to me. Thank you.

If you two need to work things out, please do it in private off of these forums.

-- Jun

Please help support AikiWeb -- become an AikiWeb Contributing Member!
 
Old 11-17-2004, 04:25 PM   #582
DanielR
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
Neil wrote:
See my recent discussion with DanielR, regarding Palestine and Israel (and no, Daniel: I have not forgotten you).
FWIW, while participation in this and similar discussions on a public forum does demand considerable self-restraint, I do agree that it's at least theoretically possible. As for the recent exchange, frankly I was already expecting to see Jun's classic "I don't care who started it. Both of you, go to your rooms!".

Daniel
 
Old 11-17-2004, 06:07 PM   #583
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Re: Anti-Americanism

as someone who has had family and friends defending this great country of ours against the ***** across the seas --- I would have to say that I completely agree with many of the points that Daniel V. has voiced. Thank -you Daniel for attempting to open so many of these closed eyes and minds.
 
Old 11-17-2004, 06:28 PM   #584
vanstretch
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Re: Anti-Americanism

no problem Timi, thanks.
 
Old 11-17-2004, 09:32 PM   #585
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Anytime Daniel --- I feel that there is a time to talk and a time to sit back and listen. I have been sitting back as a guest and watching you and Neil go at each other for quite some time now. WHY my man --- as you appear a very well spoken person -- do you allow someone to get under your skin as you do him? Self -control. I understand and agree that he enjoys pushing your buttons -- only because you afford him that luxury. Don't misunderstand my words here please, I do agree with what you say --- But look within yourself and find out why you allow yourself to become so hostile towards someone that is obviously enjoying the power he has over you in that aspect. Yes Bush is a terrific President --- the man stands behind everything he says --- but why allow Neil the luxury of seeing you lose control of your composure in here? My brother and two brother-in-laws were over in Baghdad. I am not happy at all with some of the views Mr. Neil has put out there -- but you know what? He is the one that will one day wish that he had stood up taller for what all the boys over there are doing. Take it easy.
 
Old 11-17-2004, 11:17 PM   #586
vanstretch
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Timi, thanks, and you are right, I have let him push my buttons. I have also soldiered myself overseas and have policed in the US and am very proud of my service. Yet its time for me to sit back and not get into it with him, it is truly an exercize in frustration. I do appreciate your kind words and will drive on in a more positive direction. Thanks. Daniel
 
Old 11-17-2004, 11:22 PM   #587
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Re: Anti-Americanism

anytime Daniel

Timi
 
Old 11-18-2004, 01:51 AM   #588
Neil Mick
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
Please, folks: don't feed the troll. Just put him on ignore, and let him go eat thread-lock, somewhere else.
And so, we come full-circle:

Quote:
daniel vanhee wrote:
I do believe that President Bush is doing his ever best to accomplish the mission. The regions of Afg,Iraq,Iran,etc(middle east) have always hated us and have always had terrorist training camps within, and with that I am certain that this long hunt for OBL, and his ilk will continue

Your whole tone is know-it-all and reeks of your arrogant attitude.

You are pompous and your tone is also full of attitude.
We are here for different reasons. You have a religion; I am here to express my opinion, and to debate.

I do not debate religious beliefs. And so, I leave you to yours.

In Bush You Trust...Amen.

Meanwhile, Ignore--here you come (*click*).

Quote:
Timi Cone wrote:
. WHY my man --- as you appear a very well spoken person -- do you allow someone to get under your skin as you do him? Self -control.
Oh, my god: I think that that was the funniest thing I've ever heard. I laughed so hard, I fell off my chair!

Welcome, Timi! God, too funny.

Quote:
Jun Akiyama wrote:
Please leave the moderating decisions up to me. Thank you.

-- Jun
Just a request, Jun: apologies if I seem to have overstepped.
 
Old 11-18-2004, 02:01 AM   #589
Neil Mick
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Back to the topic.

Quote:
David Chalk wrote:
Or to put the question another way, how many of the dead in Fallujah were 'insurgents' before they were shot dead???
I've heard the Red Cross state that there are min. 800 civilian casualties. The Army states that it killed 1400 insurgents...and NO civilians! Wow! Is it not amazing how efficient, our Army is? Amazing! Nary a single civilian casualty! Gosh.

My feelings about Falluja is this is a microcosm of the war on terror. We locate a target, bomb it and fill it with munitions ("light it up"), stomp it to pieces, and the insurgents/terrorists/bad-guys melt away, reform and strengthen their numbers. Six months from now, I'm guessing the insurgents will reclaim Falluja, as the US stomps on another city. IMHO, nothing will be accomplished, militarily or in bringing free elections to Iraqi's.

How could anyone expect free elections in ANY country while under foreign military occupation, in any case?
 
Old 11-18-2004, 03:08 AM   #590
Taliesin
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Timi

I hope you were joking when you told Daniel that he was "attempting to open so many closed eyes and minds". At the moment all he is saying, and I'll use the phrase again "my country right or wrong".

That the American (and British) troops are in a difficult situation is unarguable. That it justifies what appear to be war crimes is something else again. After all the entire point of military training is to be able to do the right thing in very difficult circumstances. One would think that given our training is to maintain form and posture, no matter how knackered we are and to maintain concentration, should have given you some small inkling that troops are supposed to be trained to react properly in "very difficult circumstances". ( I do emphasize the term some small inkling).

Daniel

The terrorist training camps were in Libya. Afghanistan was too full of waring parties (against the Soviets and supported by the US) for terrorists to train there. Besides Moslem's were the preferred targets of Islamic terrorists - go look at what the GIA did in Algeria. I appreciate you support your President. What I don't understand is why you apparently believe that is an adequate answer to the points put to you.

Jun

I appologise if my explaination that claiming Patriotism without appreciating what patriotism is is not the most intellegent Act in the world offened you or indeed anyone else on this thread.
 
Old 11-18-2004, 06:06 AM   #591
Timi Cone
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Well -- first of all DAVID -- our troops are trained to answer the call when our commander in chief calls on them ---- they do defend our country, whether they feel what they are fighting against is right or not. and yes i do believe it is our country or theirs. I will not back down from that stand. I will not apologize or feel I need to explain that to anyone. I am very proud to live here and will always be. And that subject will not be debated by me. Many of our troops would rather be home with their families than over in Iraq looking in the face of a child or a mother that is holding a weapon in their face. My brother faced this more than once in his 19 month tour over their -- so you see alot of these "civilian" casualties could be avoided if the civilians would leave the weapons alone.Oh and Neil -- glad you had a nice laugh on my account -- I enjoy bringing humor to peoples lives.
 
Old 11-18-2004, 07:12 AM   #592
mj
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
Timi Cone wrote:
...so you see alot of these "civilian" casualties could be avoided if the civilians would leave the weapon alone.....
I'm sorry..who's country is it?

Can I come over to your country and tell you to disarm or a foreign army will kill you? Will you throw your weapons down if you are invaded? Will you accept a cuckoo government filled with people loyal to the enemy?

Or will you do anything you can to get rid of them?

Or do these rights only belong to certain.....colours/religions/countries/politics?

I understand that your family has served in the military, no-one is attacking your family or you.

Dulce et decorum est

 
Old 11-18-2004, 08:28 AM   #593
Timi Cone
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Re: Anti-Americanism

It is sweet and right to many to fight and die for their country MJ --- and I believe you misunderstood the concept of my last post -- Many of the encounters that my brother had were NOT from within their homes the young and the women were the ones attacking in the fields of combat. Yes, I agree that our troops need to come home, but you know as well as I that that is NOT going to happen until we rebuild the place -- and that is NOT going to happen as long as THEY keep blowing up everything that we redo.

Timi
 
Old 11-18-2004, 10:05 AM   #594
Taliesin
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Timi

As far as Duce Et Decorum Est Pro Patria Mori is concerned I'm with Wilfred Owen

You appear to share with Daniel an ability to fail to reply to points made. Such as arguing that difficulty of circumstances is not an adequate defense to apparent war crimes given troops are supposed to be trained to deal with these circumstances. Maybe that's why the British Troops don't seem to have the same problems. (Although to be fair we didn't go out of our way to incite the local population into rebellion against us).

Claiming that they are trained to "answer the call when our commander in chief calls upon them". isn't actually a point given that all troops from all countries are trained to do that. You do seem to be sliding very close to an attempted defense of "they were only following orders".

Britain also has troops who would rather be with their families, so that doesn't give you any ground either.

I don't mind you disagreeing with me. You'd just be a much better advocate for your position if you could provide a clear counter-argument. Yes the Troops are Serving their Commander in Chief, yes they would rather be at Home, yes they are in very difficult circumstances. None of that answers the point that Troops are trained to deal with combat, so they cannot claim combat as a defense. By the way my country right or wrong, is not a question of your, or my country or somebody else's - its an assertion that whatever someone does no matter how unlawful, or horrific is justified on the basis that it was done by 'my country'. Which is a totally different concept to "my country or theirs."

By the way loved your bit about "THEY keep blowing up everything that we redo". Do I take it you didn't notice anything about what happened in Fallujah. Or do you think that all those US Warplanes are there just to decorate the sky.
 
Old 11-18-2004, 11:01 AM   #595
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Re: Anti-Americanism

So David am I to assume that we are to pick up where Daniel and Neil seem to have left off? I won't allow that to happen. I am not trying to argue anything. I simply stated what I know my family went through over there. And no I am not saying that our forces have made 100% correct decisions. And they do have to assess the situation. But when your platoon leader has just been killed by a 12 - 13 year old child and that child is now coming at you -- you are gonna take him out. Many times my brothers troop was ordered to NOT return fire when being fired upon in transport. This is a decision he had to make as he was in charge of them. It wasn't just go kill 'em all. So if that is what you feel I am saying here I am not portraying my words well. I know there are many opinions on this subject. Yes everyone has a right to theirs. This is mine. Fallujah was a terrible tragedy -- I feel for all that was lost there -- .Yes we without a doubt messed up. But how many other times have they tore everything up that we have rebuilt? As I said earlier Dear David, I do not wish to argue. I would rather our boys come home where they belong --- but until they can -- I will continue to defend them and what they are doing.
 
Old 11-18-2004, 11:12 AM   #596
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Question Re: Anti-Americanism

Do you David know anyone that has been placed in one of those difficult positions that you seem to feel would be so easy to make? The way that you are speaking I fear that you do not. Has anyone you know ever looked down the end of a barrel being held by a pregnant woman? Had to decide how to save their life and not jeopardize the life of an unborn child? Those are the "civilians" that I was referring to in my post earlier when I said there would be a lot less loss if they would leave the weapons down. And how are the guys to be trained for that? See you have fact from the news reports -- I have fact from the actual battle field. Which do you thinnk is more accurate?
 
Old 11-18-2004, 02:07 PM   #597
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Re: Anti-Americanism

And speaking of Fallujah --- Did you see they have found a terrorist school in the rubble? So what would your suggestion have been on getting to that? Just curious David......If not through normal military means.
 
Old 11-18-2004, 02:47 PM   #598
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Anti-Americanism

It is easy to be an arm chair quarterback when you are not involved. Also easy to point fingers from the outside looking in.

It certainly is not easy to make decisions...and certainly making optimal decisions in these situations is next to impossible.

I just hope that all involved can make the best decision they can.

One thing I can say for certain, all politics aside is that I really believe that our soldiers are trying to do what is right as best they can.

How many times have you done an aikido technique (or meant to do one) and messed it up in the stress of the situation...maybe you popped uke in the nose moving in fast?

Certainly killing people is much more serious than aikido...but certainly the same type of correalation exist in stress and combat. We should all be proud of the fact that we are using ground troops and willing to go house to house for most part. It says a tremendous amount about our commitment.

If we didn't care, we would use distance based weapons more than we are, or would cause even more suffering by starving them out, etc.

Optimally, we wouldn't be in there at all, but we are there, and I know our troops are doing the best they can.
 
Old 11-18-2004, 05:24 PM   #599
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Point well spoken and taken Kevin. Yes, I am very proud of what our men are doing and how they are making the effort to lesson the casualty count. According to some of our other post mates --- we should just leave and not attempt to do anything. Not care -- not do a-n-y-t-h-i-n-g. Thank you Kevin.
 
Old 11-18-2004, 11:08 PM   #600
Neil Mick
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
Timi Cone wrote:
According to some of our other post mates --- we should just leave and not attempt to do anything. Not care -- not do a-n-y-t-h-i-n-g. Thank you Kevin.
Wrong. Leaving would be an excellent start, to doing something. Fighting has now broken out all over Iraq. The so-called "foreign" insurgents in Falluja only came to about a dozen, of the 1000 prisoners we took. We broke int'l law invading Iraq, we arguably committed genocide with the sanctions, and we are now turning Falluja into a hellhole, all in the name of "free elections" (never minding, of course: that about 80 political parties are going to boycott the elections, in protest of the Falluja action).

We did what Saddam didn't do--we turned Iraq into a place teetering on the edge of civil war. We laughingly pretend to export "democracy," when we cannot even seem to get our own voting process right.

You know, Tim: this "what must we do?" question conjures in my mind the image of a drug-dealer, high on crack, who cannot sleep because of the neighbor's barking dog.

Just like many in the USA, he tosses and turns, sweating out his drugs, asking himself: "What MUST I DO, to shut that dog up," as he nervously eyes his shotgun.

Well, Tim: there are many other measures in diplomacy, besides violence. Yet, our society is addicted to it. Our military-industrial complex is tightly wound into our economy.

We cannot afford peace. If the USA dismantled all of its weapons, our economy would collapse. But even so, there are many alternatives to violence. Hussein was about as much a threat to the US, as Mexico (none at all).

And, to tell you the truth: I worry far less about terrorism, than I do about getting hit by a car. It's a lot more likely. Yet, our highway infrastructure is decaying, and BushCo is spending like its Xmas, borrowing about $1.6B/day, with no plan to pay it back.

So pardon me, if I look askance at all the brave, heroic calls to "support our troops." Frankly, I DO support them: I support them coming home, instead of engaging in mass-executions, in Falluja.

Quote:
Michael Riehle wrote:
But, here's another thing to consider. If Bush has crossed the line or even if he is simply incompetent and you believe this to be true, then not criticising his actions could be construed as treasonous.
I agree with this statement. I find it my patriotic duty to defend the Constitution and protest this war, to the best of my ability. Tim, the fact that you hold an opposing view is what makes this country great...NOT the fact that we also excel, at killing.

Last edited by Neil Mick : 11-18-2004 at 11:20 PM.
 

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