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Old 07-29-2004, 04:08 PM   #301
Neil Mick
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
John Hogan wrote:
NOW you're comparing "mass arrests" to torture !?

Sheez.....
No. You missed the boat. Let me try again.

1. The army (and private contractors) use methods of abuse that easily quantify as torture.

2. YOU said that
Quote:
If this is all we are doing to the bastard terrorists and "evil doeers", then more power to Uncle Sam.
3. I pointed out that many of these "bastard terrorists" and "evil doers" were swept up in mass arrests.

4. In his report, Gen. Taguba states that at least 60% of the ppl in the Iraqi prison were arrested in "mass arrests."

5. Its not a big leap to fugure out that a certain portion of these ppl in jail are guilty ONLY of being at the wrong place, at the wrong time.

6. This means that some of the "bastard terrorists" and "evildoers" that the US Army are torturing ("abusing," if it makes you feel better) are, in reality, innocent.

You understand my point, now? Innocent ppl are getting torutred/abused. A good number of them are women.
 
Old 07-29-2004, 04:15 PM   #302
rendshakir
 
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Anyway Neil - I request that you amend your figures on your offensive signature to remove 3 that I can speak for, who would have been horrified to see their lives being used by someone who argues for actions that result in any kind of outcomes that involve keeping Saddam in power....
 
Old 07-29-2004, 04:26 PM   #303
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
No. You missed the boat. Let me try again.

1. The army (and private contractors) use methods of abuse that easily quantify as torture.

2. YOU said that


3. I pointed out that many of these "bastard terrorists" and "evil doers" were swept up in mass arrests.

4. In his report, Gen. Taguba states that at least 60% of the ppl in the Iraqi prison were arrested in "mass arrests."

5. Its not a big leap to fugure out that a certain portion of these ppl in jail are guilty ONLY of being at the wrong place, at the wrong time.

6. This means that some of the "bastard terrorists" and "evildoers" that the US Army are torturing ("abusing," if it makes you feel better) are, in reality, innocent.

You understand my point, now? Innocent ppl are getting torutred/abused. A good number of them are women.
Well, now that is a complete, logical statement, compared to what you wrote before. Your welcome for me forcing you to write more clearly and to make your case more definitive.

And of course, I don't agreee with ANYTHING you say.
 
Old 07-29-2004, 04:56 PM   #304
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Re: Anti-Americanism

I don't agree with you either Neil - you had my ear until you indicated several ideal scenarios involving Saddam remaining in power - now your position is quite offensive - I would very much like to see you try to explain to the relatives of those who were killed by Saddam that you would have been happier with an outcome keeping him in power as long as he behaves. Actually it's a lot easier to explain to the relatives of the victims of the war that at least their lives have not gone in vain, but were part of the course of removing Saddam - I am happy with that explanation for my relatives. No it is not ideal - and there were casualties on BOTH sides - painting coalition forces all as evil torturers simply does not reflect the good work that has been done, the bravery that has been shown by many, as well as the sacrifice of life --- in an effort that was NOT in vain. Don't flippantly ask me the question of "how do you know the new guys won't be worse than Saddam?" - that is a ridiculous statement - trust me the Abu Ghraib photos look like holiday snaps to someone who has actually experienced 24 hours in a Saddam jail... It is YOU who are missing the facts Neil...
 
Old 07-29-2004, 05:04 PM   #305
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Re: Anti-Americanism

But then it is very clear that you have no idea as to the majority Iraqi perspective either within or outside Iraq... I find it amazing that you quote the lives of people - none of whom were consulted about the matter by you before their deaths (unless I am wrong?), to justify argumentation that the vast majority of them would find highly offensive - if you are saying that Saddam would have been the lesser of two evils for the Iraqi people than you truly challenge my comprehension of what evil is.You should have at least some respect for the names behind the numbers you quote - and you should meet more Iraqis too... before you start throwing the weight of their relatives bodies behind your high spurious and objectionable line of argumentation.
 
Old 07-29-2004, 06:03 PM   #306
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Rend, hi, and i appreciate the way you are handling yourself thru this thread,and thank you for articulating your points(better than i have been doing apparently) I just about lose it with these armchair know-it-all types(who have not served>neil)and their cavalier attitudes. I could care less about the opinions of the left, I am numb to their twisted whiny nonsense. I served my country(us army+pd=10yrs),support Bush, supported Reagan,G.Gordon Liddy,Oliver North,Gov.Schwarzenegger, Ted Nugent, Richard Marcincko, and Eric Haney.This list of great american patriots all are an ideal mixture of the type of leader we need in USA. Why? They speak their minds ,are un-apologetic, and are forward moving leaders, they are trailblazers.
 
Old 07-29-2004, 06:15 PM   #307
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Hi - Bush has my support too - although I cannot vote for him as I'm not a US citizen. Blair has my vote here in the UK. Thanks for your message - it's very heartening - the world IS a better place thanks to the work of good servicemen like yourself - and thank you for ousting Saddam!
 
Old 07-29-2004, 07:47 PM   #308
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
Rend Shakir wrote:
Neil - Your ideal scenario in all cases seems to involve "controlling" Saddam - "disarming" him, making him "comply" with UN requirements... This was a very evil dictatorship that ruined the lives of everyone Iraqi, whether inside or outside of Iraq - yet in your ideal scenario - HE STAYS "as long as he behaves like a good boy."
Sorry, but the US, as much as it pretends to be, is not the policeman of the world. Yes, I agree, Hussein ran an evil dictatorship. Would you like a complete list of the other evil dictators in the world? Where should we invade next...Cuba? N. Korea? Libya? Sudan? Where do we start?

More importantly: who decides when, and where, to invade? Should we wait to invade AS the crimes are committed, or should we wait 20 years, as we did with Hussein?

Quote:
The killings that he ordered of innocent Iraqis and visiting civilians were not ALL televised -
No, I realize that. I had the questionable privilege of seeing a video of Hussein's thugs beating some prisoners who were captured after the '91 Shi'ite uprising. I guarantee you, this didn't make it on CNN.

Quote:
yet you act as if Hussain did nothing wrong after the chemical attacks in the 1980s. Let's clarify for you that he killed over 50,000 people the year before he was invaded, including over 450 kuwaiti prisoners of war... Not your problem? Maybe not.
It's not MY problem: it's the world's problem. And, I never said he was guiltless after '89. But don't make it sound as if he was an insane killer who killed millions a year, in the other end. This isn't about qpologizing for Hussein: it's about getting the record straight.

Again, the US did not invade Iraq to "liberate" the Iraqi's. That was ex-post facto humanist reasoning to justify an illegal invasion and cover for the expansionist/materialist motives.

If you think that this is all going to turn out well for Iraq...the notion of "breaking some eggs, to make an omelette," well, perhaps. I'm not a soothsayer. But what I DO know is that this tactic has been done countless times in the past, and it never works. Never. Look at Grenada, if you don't believe me. Or, Nicaragua.

Quote:
But if you are going to quote civilian casualties in your arguments - at least think about this point - oh and I'd just LOVE to meet the Iraqi who agrees with you...
You lost me, here.


Quote:
but I think there's a very good chance he's in a cell awaiting his trial now...
Still, your point is unclear.
 
Old 07-29-2004, 08:02 PM   #309
Neil Mick
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
Rend Shakir wrote:
I don't agree with you either Neil - you had my ear until you indicated several ideal scenarios involving Saddam remaining in power - now your position is quite offensive - I would very much like to see you try to explain to the relatives of those who were killed by Saddam that you would have been happier with an outcome keeping him in power as long as he behaves.
You're putting words in my mouth. I never said I "would have been happier," with Hussein in power. I feel that you're trying to box me into a position, you expect of me.

Best option of all? The Shi'ite uprising succeeds, with Pappy Bush's help, in '92. The Iraqi's start self-governance on their own, after overthrowing Hussein. But, we didn't do that, did we? It surprises me, how noble you think the US's sentiments, after they knowingly bombed Iraq's infrastructure, and then starved them for 13 years, to force Hussein to negotiate. Yet, 20 years later...we decide to invade "for the liberation of Iraqi's" (more or less, the same thing that the British said in 1917, and what Napoleon said, when HE invaded the region), and its all good, for you.

Don't you find it a little "odd," that the US waits 20 years to stop an atrocity?

Governments must be ruled by fiat of law, not by men. By the same token, if Hussein WERE to obey the law, he should eventually have to answer for his crimes. But, you don't invade a country "just to get rid" of someone. Respectfully, this is a ridiculously naive notion.

As a country, you only can invade another country IF you are in danger of being invaded yourself; or IF a genocide is ongoing.

But, to suggest that I support Hussein staying in power because I oppose the invasion is misrepresentation.

Quote:
Actually it's a lot easier to explain to the relatives of the victims of the war that at least their lives have not gone in vain, but were part of the course of removing Saddam - I am happy with that explanation for my relatives.
I'd be really curious as to your relatives' situation....where do they live?? Inside the Green Zone? The situation as I've heard it, is not so rosy, at all.

Quote:
No it is not ideal - and there were casualties on BOTH sides - painting coalition forces all as evil torturers simply does not reflect the good work that has been done, the bravery that has been shown by many, as well as the sacrifice of life --- in an effort that was NOT in vain.
You're going to have to explain to me, how torture is a "good thing." It doesn't even bring in good intel.

Quote:
Don't flippantly ask me the question of "how do you know the new guys won't be worse than Saddam?" - that is a ridiculous statement - trust me the Abu Ghraib photos look like holiday snaps to someone who has actually experienced 24 hours in a Saddam jail... It is YOU who are missing the facts Neil...
Wrong again. And, you're posing a question I'd never ask. Why must you always try to weasel in Hussein, on that yardstick? I DON'T WANT HIM THERE, thank you very much! The US is not in the business of invading other countries, if their leader is "evil."

Last edited by Neil Mick : 07-29-2004 at 08:06 PM.
 
Old 07-29-2004, 08:27 PM   #310
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
Rend Shakir wrote:
But then it is very clear that you have no idea as to the majority Iraqi perspective either within or outside Iraq...
Um...no disrespect to the views of your family, but surveys disagree with you:

Iraqi public wants US out

Quote:
A team of 46 researchers interviewed 3244 Iraqis across the country over the age of 15, the overwhelming majority of whom said they were happy Saddam Hussein had been removed, but not in the way that he was removed.

Among those Iraqis surveyed 73% said they lacked trust in the US occupiers, and 73% had a similar lack of trust in the Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA), led by Paul Bremer.

More than half of those surveyed said there was no room for the CPA in any future Iraqi government and the establishment of security in the country was their main concern.
Poll: Iraqi's out of Patience
Quote:
Only a third of the Iraqi people now believe that the American-led occupation of their country is doing more good than harm, and a solid majority support an immediate military pullout even though they fear that could put them in greater danger, according to a new USA TODAY/CNN/Gallup Poll.
Quote:
I find it amazing that you quote the lives of people - none of whom were consulted about the matter by you before their deaths (am I am wrong?),
I find it amazing that you justify the invasion of these people, who died under horrible circumstances--none of whom were consulted about the matter by you before their deaths (am I wrong?).

Quote:
to justify argumentation that the vast majority of them would find highly offensive
And you know this...how?

Quote:
- if you are saying that Saddam would have been the lesser of two evils for the Iraqi people than you truly challenge my comprehension of what evil is.
It's not about "lesser of two evil's:" it's about what the US is legally entitled to do, or not. And again: you're fooling yourself, if you think this occupation will turn out OK, for the Iraqi's.

Quote:
You should have at least some respect for the names behind the numbers you quote - and you should meet more Iraqis too...
Please, stop with the misguided guilt-tripping. YOU can speak for the dead about as well as I. "Respect" for the names? They shouldn't even be DEAD!! If there were no invasion, it's likely that they wouldn't!

You talk about respect!

Quote:
before you start throwing the weight of their relatives bodies behind your high spurious and objectionable line of argumentation.
If you find it so "objectionable and spurious," perhaps you could kindly consider attempting to understand it first, instead of blocking me off into your notion, of what it is I mean, before you tear into them.

Just a thought.

P.S. And while I welcome conversation with everyone involved who can be respectful: I admit, I haven't spoken with as many Iraqi's as I'd like.

I'm guessing, tho: that you haven't seen the photos of sniper-bullets through the windows of ambulances that tried to get past the US checkpoints, in Fallujah. Or listened to the US news correspondents to took the photos, and managed to get into Fallujah, as the US Army shut down the hospital there.

Or seen the photos of the cheering Fallujah militia (even, the police! :O ) as they ran the US out of their city.

I have. And, the picture you paint, of Iraqi's who "love" the occupation, is not in tune with what I see and hear, from witnesses outside of the mainstream media. I'm sure SOMEONE is benefitting from the occupation...someone always does...but it deosn't seem to be the Iraqi's, that's for sure.

Last edited by Neil Mick : 07-29-2004 at 08:34 PM.
 
Old 07-29-2004, 08:37 PM   #311
Neil Mick
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
John Hogan wrote:
Your welcome for me forcing you to write more clearly and to make your case more definitive.
Lol, do you say "you're welcome for helping you pass the test," when you're uke for an exam, too?

And, you don't "agree with a word I say??" Oh GOD, no, no!!!
 
Old 07-29-2004, 08:47 PM   #312
Neil Mick
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
Rend Shakir wrote:
Hi - Bush has my support too -
It takes all kinds, I suppose.

One thing for sure: one day you'll find out "the other side" of the story, and you'll see my points. Unlike some post-ers in the US, who will never see "the other side," because they only follow the media-outlets, with which they agree. Some of them have served in the military and equate "US," with us.

Some of them listen to shock-jocks and think their poison-pens are actually pearls.

Whatever they do: they aren't likely to talk to someone over there, who has seen the results of war. Likely, you will. And, I suspect: you'll have a change of heart.

But, who knows? (*shrug*)

Last edited by Neil Mick : 07-29-2004 at 08:55 PM.
 
Old 07-29-2004, 09:07 PM   #313
vanstretch
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Re: Anti-Americanism

I will never understand "your"putdown and posturing side neil, It's really hard to imagine that u are a us citizen? Is there anything u like about living here? .Nothing suits u here,you are a very whiny ungrateful sort of fella. maybe u and alec baldwin can be bunkmates in bangkok.
 
Old 07-29-2004, 10:13 PM   #314
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Neil - your postings are highly offensive - yes I did speak to three of them before they died, yes I am blatently more of an authority than you on the Iraqi perspective - and yes I have seen the pictures you are talking about - I am amazed you have the nerve of accusing me of being disrespectful - you are not speaking for Iraqis - meet a few and please have a more open mind when you do. You will be shocked! As for the polls - Gallup polls revealed that over 75% of Iraqis living in Iraq felt that the invasion was "worth it"...

As for removing evil dictators the US did it once when it DID work - unless you think of course Hitler should also still be around? As for North Korea - that should be sorted out as well, and it would have my blessing. Oh yes - it may be "illegal" to remove dictators but I don't think it's morally wrong, and if you had lived under Saddam you would agree with that.

Like I said, my point remains valid that you should speak to more Iraqis before throwing the weight of their bodies around behind your arguments... You will be AMAZED!!!
 
Old 07-29-2004, 10:31 PM   #315
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Rend, I'll chip in for his ticket over there!!! Maybe in his rush to be hypercritical, neil forgot about those two tall towers that got hit? and all of his dead countrymen!
 
Old 07-29-2004, 10:41 PM   #316
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Re: Anti-Americanism

NEIL,

I'd like the EMPHASISE that I have LIVED in Iraq - I have spoken to hundreds of Iraqis and YES the US invasion of Iraq in my mind was right - despite everything - it has already made Iraq (and I believe the world) an improved safer place.

Before this war we would never have had this conversation because I would have been too terrified to say anything. I don't need patronising put-downs about my IGNORANCE! If you had a glimpse into my life I feel fairly confident you would not express your views with such arrogance!

Don't question my integrity, my origin, or what I know - you are in *pretend land*... My aunt was recently kidnapped and killed by terrorists, my uncle machine gunned down and so on and so forth... was it horrific and sad? Yes. Would they have lived under Saddam? Maybe, but I wouldn't count on it - My family lost more people under Saddam. Get your facts right - he was killing thousands of people before the war even started - it is estimated he killed some 2,000,000 Iraqis over the course of his regime, over half a million people have already been dug out of mass graves. The "identification process" of these bodies - just logging names into a computer for enquiring relatives is expected to take years. Was the invasion worth it? A million times over YES. YOU cannot understand this because YOU have not experienced Saddam or had an open conversation with someone who has.

I hope you finally get this straight Neil - I am well qualified indeed to speak for the war, and may God bless the souls of all those who have sacrificed their lives. Their actions are appreciated. They will never be forgotten. These soldiers and their families have every honour in my mind. Of course noone likes to be occupied, but I am grateful that the coalition did not just go into Iraq, remove the government and leave it in anarchy. Do they want to stay in Iraq forever? I doubt it, I know a couple of people in the US military and I think they're really looking forward to going home!!!

Last edited by rendshakir : 07-29-2004 at 10:54 PM.
 
Old 07-29-2004, 11:11 PM   #317
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Daniel,

Thanks for your comments. You are right. Of course Neil will point out statistics and articles that "prove" Iraq had nothing to do with the 911 bombing of the WTC... And that the security of US citizens has no relationship to dictatorships around the world that support and fund terrorism, and breed terror in their own citizens - I have no doubt he will argue that those bombers developed their depraved tactics, having all their lives been raised in a democratic nation in security and with dignity. But he is wrong. You fight terrorism by not tolerating terror states. Oil can buy a lot of support. There are already enough nuclear weapons to destroy the world - the difference is in who is in power, in who can potentially press the button. If the likes of Hitler and Saddam have control of resources like that it is just a matter of time before they are in the position to press a button. New rules now apply to international security. Terrorism has to be fought and peace and security have to be fought for.

And Neil - why don't you actually GO to Iraq and find out for yourself? Until you do speak to some Iraqis you should amend the dodgy signature that they may find offensive...
 
Old 07-30-2004, 03:28 AM   #318
Neil Mick
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
Rend Shakir wrote:
Neil - your postings are highly offensive - yes I did speak to three of them before they died,
I'm sorry you find my posts offensive. They are not intended as such. I respect that you spoke to 3 ppl who later died in the invasion. But, no one can speak for them. Or, for the 13,000 others. To say that you can, is simply folly.

The facts speak for themselves. The polls are ample, that show the Iraqi's are not happy with the occupation.

Quote:
yes I am blatently more of an authority than you on the Iraqi perspective
I didn't realize, this was a contest.

Quote:
- and yes I have seen the pictures you are talking about - I am amazed you have the nerve of accusing me of being disrespectful - you are not speaking for Iraqis - meet a few and please have a more open mind when you do. You will be shocked! As for the polls - Gallup polls revealed that over 75% of Iraqis living in Iraq felt that the invasion was "worth it"...
You think this was all worth it? The outbreaks of cholera, the lack of electricity...? 13,000 people who would still be alive...?

Well, we'll have to agree, to disagree, here.

Again, sorry if my opinions offend, but you ARE the first, to offer this view. But, sorry: I listen to a NUMBER of sources, and the "Iraq is doing swell" music, seems to emanate mostly from BushCo. I for one, don't buy it.

Quote:
As for removing evil dictators the US did it once when it DID work - unless you think of course Hitler should also still be around?
If this is a "contest:" I just won. I invoke Godfrey's Rule...!

Quote:
As for North Korea - that should be sorted out as well, and it would have my blessing. Oh yes - it may be "illegal" to remove dictators but I don't think it's morally wrong, and if you had lived under Saddam you would agree with that.
You're just not getting my point. Can you show me any law, anywhere, that states that the US is mandated to overthrow evil men?

Quote:
Like I said, my point remains valid that you should speak to more Iraqis before throwing the weight of their bodies around behind your arguments...
Once again, you missed the boat.

With respect, you're one person, with one view. It differs from mine. Isn't it great, that the world is big enough for more than a few opinions?

You feel that you can speak for all who died during the invasion, when you state that their deaths were worth the price they paid, to overthrow Hussein.

Very convenient, as they're no longer alive to speak for themselves.

I do not use the numbers to speak "for them." These numbers are a benchmark for how deeply this folly is taking us. Does a water-mark speak for the whole ocean?

Throughout your continual (and incorrect) attempts to box me into a narrow argument, you neglected to mention one thing, in your rosy assessment of the occupation...few of the insurgents are from outside Iraq.

And again, what about the parade the Fallujan's gave, to the fleeing American's, eh? No doubt: they were sorrowfully wringing their hands, wishing for the occupier's speedy return.
 
Old 07-30-2004, 03:44 AM   #319
Neil Mick
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
Rend Shakir wrote:
NEIL,

I'd like the EMPHASISE that I have LIVED in Iraq - I have spoken to hundreds of Iraqis and YES the US invasion of Iraq in my mind was right - despite everything - it has already made Iraq (and I believe the world) an improved safer place.
Excellent, that you keep up with affairs in Iraq. However, your views may not be in the majority, of Iraqi opinion.

In fact, I'm willing to bet that they aren't.

Quote:
Before this war we would never have had this conversation because I would have been too terrified to say anything. I don't need patronising put-downs about my IGNORANCE! If you had a glimpse into my life I feel fairly confident you would not express your views with such arrogance!


Quote:
I hope you finally get this straight Neil - I am well qualified indeed to speak for the war,
We all are. This war affects us all.

Quote:
and may God bless the souls of all those who have sacrificed their lives. Their actions are appreciated. They will never be forgotten. These soldiers and their families have every honour in my mind. Of course noone likes to be occupied, but I am grateful that the coalition did not just go into Iraq, remove the government and leave it in anarchy. Do they want to stay in Iraq forever? I doubt it, I know a couple of people in the US military and I think they're really looking forward to going home!!!
Again, we'll just have to agree, to disagree.

Last edited by Neil Mick : 07-30-2004 at 03:50 AM.
 
Old 07-30-2004, 08:25 AM   #320
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Re: Anti-Americanism

[quote=Neil Mick]
>You think this was all worth it? The outbreaks of cholera, >the lack of electricity...? 13,000 people who would still be >alive...?

Definitely - like I said, on Saddam's rate of murder at least 5 times the number of people would have been killed over the same period in "business as usual" Iraq. Besides - more facts speak for themselves - what of the 100s of thousands of Iraqi exiles that are for the first time after over 30 years returning to Iraq even though they know there are crap energy supplies, lack of security, cholera etc.. but even under these conditions every one of them that I have spoken to has said that Iraq has become finally "bearable" - not so under Saddam.

>Well, we'll have to agree, to disagree, here.
>Again, sorry if my opinions offend, but you ARE the first, to >offer this view.

Presumably, then, I am the first Iraqi you have spoken to in depth about the matter....

>You're just not getting my point. Can you show me any law, >anywhere, that states that the US is mandated to overthrow >evil men?

No - and because they were not OBLIGED to under any law, makes me very grateful for the action, which in human terms was right.

>With respect, you're one person, with one view.

I'm suggesting that I'm rather more than that - I am the very first Iraqi you have spoken to about this...

>I do not use the numbers to speak "for them." These >numbers are a benchmark for how deeply this folly is taking >us. Does a water-mark speak for the whole ocean?

Neil - you can't benchmark without bringing into the equation the other side - namely the impact on Iraqi lives had Saddam stayed. There is a lot of evidence of mass murder with a minimum estimate of one million and maximum of 2 million Iraqi's killed under Saddam... You have to compare action with non action. In this case it's like finding a cure that is 75% successful for something that kills 25% - and then quoting that 25% to argue the cure is not worth administering - you HAVE to factor out ongoing losses of life under Saddam, and these were not trivial.

>...few of the insurgents are from outside Iraq.

Not true - of 12 organisations operating in Baghdad nine of these were found to be from outside of Iraq - the famous suicide bombings are mainly masterminded by Musab al Zarqawi, a non Iraqi arab terrorist, and the beheadings are largely being carried out by The Green Battalian, an Algerian terrorist group with french organisational roots.

Of course some Iraqis have been caught up in anti-american protests. Noone likes to be occupied (but 75% say the invasion was worth it). No most people don't support the occupation remaining beyond 2005 - I doubt even the occupation. And I don't think the picture is rosy at all. I think it will take years of deliberate and determined effort to even improve the situation slightly. But you talk about cholera and electricity problems frightening people who have lived with far greater terrors and you always skim over the scenario of Saddam remaining in power and what a nightmare it would have been for all of us ...

Last edited by rendshakir : 07-30-2004 at 08:29 AM.
 
Old 07-30-2004, 12:34 PM   #321
frivolouspig
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Re: Anti-Americanism

First I'd like to say I have traveled the states many times, the people are nice, and the country is beautiful and vast. However I don't like the current government and I am tired of people with tunnel vision (which I might be guilty of as well but I try to keep an open mind) so I'm going to wade into this despite the fact that I'll likely be flamed and what I say probably wont make any difference anyway but here it goes.

I always like to come to a flame war well prepared so I have included plenty of sources.
The links I post are lengthy articles but I think just skimming them you will get the point.

On 02-03-2003, 01:06 PM (yes a long, long time ago but it's still current) Michael Neal quoted and responded to ahmad abas after he had written:

"Compounded with your ridiculous notion that I'm not free to voice my concerns out loud in Malaysia gives me a brief idea on your close mindedness and inability to learn beyond what the mass media has force fed you. Malaysia is a free country and a very peaceful one actually. Unlike some countries I know"

with the response of "Really" and two links:

http://web.amnesty.org/ai.nsf/Recent/ASA280312001

http://www.hrw.org/wr2k1/asia/malaysia.html

I guess Mr. Neal missed the sections on the USA, but I didn't:

http://web.amnesty.org/pages/guantanamobay-index-eng

and a short quote from the second link "Police broke up peaceful rallies, arrested protestors, and beat some detainees in custody."

Of course that never happens in the USA does it?

http://www.prisonplanet.com/261103mi...oninmiami.html

that is of course if they are allowed to protest:

http://www.amconmag.com/12_15_03/feature.html
http://www.protestzone.com

Funny thing is I thought the entire USA was a "free speech zone" but then again the things the USA was founded on seem to mean less and less each passing day.

Ahmad abas then unfortunately goes into a tirade about Israel showing he is also close-minded.

Moving on ----

I'm going to skip most the rest of the nonsense to more recent posts.

I have been looking for posts that try to back up their words with sources
Neil Mick does a pretty good job especially in his post on 07-27-2004, 12:23 AM
I'm hoping people will start backing up what they say with more links so we can see where they are getting their ideas from.

Within the last little while the conversation has been about abuse of prisoners in custody and Iraq, I have already covered this with my first link to amnesty.org so I'm not going to bother talking about it.

However I will mention that although poor treatment of prisoners can be found no matter what country you look at and if the US is going to improve their image of taking the high road and being in the right they should be the first ones to stop this treatment.

Now weather all the people in those prisons are terrorists or not will obviously be debated. But what about people who were treated like that before 9/11 what about the people that got screwed out of lawyers they should have had like Kevin Mitnick (I'm sure there are others but for me he was he first on that came to mind)

Four years without bail, trial, or charges listed against him. If nothing else, Mitnick remains as one of the worst constitutional abuses by the prison system in modern times.
Not to mention also held in solitary confinement for eight months "in order to prevent a massive nuclear strike from being initiated by me via a prison payphone." BTW they said he could do the nuclear strike by whistling into the phone which is such a laughable lie it makes me want to hurt somebody.

You can also read this (I use Rotton cause it's a nice summery rather then 5 or 6 links)

The war in Iraq was justified by saying that he was an immanent threat and he had nuclear weapons ECT. These were complete lies at worst and incomprehensibly bad intelligence at best. I'm betting somewhere in the middle.

A simplified version of my views:

Was Saddam a bad man? Yes.

Should he have been left in power? No.

Is it the USA's job to remove him from power? No.

WMD was the main reason for the war. Did he have WMD? No

Does a link between Al Qaeda and Iraq exist? No.

Did the US government help out OBL and Saddam? Yes, and Yes. (but who cares about the whole "gassing his own people" thing as long as we get them damn Commies eh?)

Does the current government hold up the Constitution or the bill of rights the USA was founded on? No.

Should George Bush and co. be removed from power because they do not? Yes

This thread started out as a post about being Anti-American

Maybe so many people are Anti-American because they feel if the American government can't even hold up its OWN values who the hell are they to place them upon others?

I'll leave you a quote from a guy who knew how to control a nation and make them do the most evil things possible.

"What luck for rulers, that men do not think." ~Adolph Hitler

Try to think about it...

Last edited by frivolouspig : 07-30-2004 at 12:42 PM.
 
Old 07-30-2004, 08:14 PM   #322
rendshakir
 
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Re: Anti-Americanism

No amount of reference based research is going to make up for the fact that Neil has never actually spoken to an Iraqi (until now - and boy has he NOT impressed me) - yet he signs off a signature using "number of Iraqis" killed to support his position against the war. I would never have the nerve to do that myself about another country when I have spoken to NOONE at all from that country - there are references and there is basic due dilligence - in this thread the use of sources as a confidence prop is something I have noticed as a theme in the people who have the least experience to base their views on. You say Saddam should not have been left in power and I agree with that. Any other position is highly offensive to me. The fact is if it wasn't for the US Saddam WOULD still be in power, but then maybe not if they hadn't supported him in the first place... As for who the hell are the US to impose on others? Well I take that point, but if it hadn't have been for their help in the second world war the life of everyone of my generation in the UK would have likely looked very different...

As an Iraqi Brit I see no conflict at all between the kind of Iraq I would like to see and the kind of Britain I would like to see
 
Old 07-30-2004, 08:46 PM   #323
rendshakir
 
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Re: Anti-Americanism

We can probably all agree that human rights should be higher on the international agenda - had they been then the UN should have supported an invasion. Personally I don't care who'd have invaded Iraq, I'm just very glad someone did what was needed to oust Saddam, and nothing short of military intervention could have done this...
 
Old 07-30-2004, 11:04 PM   #324
Neil Mick
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
Rend Shakir wrote:
No amount of reference based research is going to make up for the fact that Neil has never actually spoken to an Iraqi (until now - and boy has he NOT impressed me)
With respect,

BFD.

Really, Rend: I'm about as interested in "impressing" you as I am in eating tomatoes...that is to say, not at all. YOU are not the "great source" of what's going on, simply by your heritage, I'm sorry to say (and since we're placing titles of ourselves such as "authority of All Iraq," which part of Iraq do you speak for, again? Was it the Sunni's, Shia, Kurds? When was the last time you actually were there?) After all, the place is changed a bit. Personally, I've gone to presentations of ppl who were literally just off the plane, and expecting to go back soon. One guy, Dar Jamail, was the reporter who broke the "ceasefire" myth, about Fallujah. The fact of whether or not he's Iraqi, means little to me, over what terrible things he had to present. All of the people I have listened and read about, were close to Iraqi's. Most of them were just over there: could you say the same? Were you just over there?

Sorry if you feel that a witness to war-crimes, needs to pass some sort of "Ethnicity Correctness Test" Obviously, I don't.

Last edited by Neil Mick : 07-30-2004 at 11:15 PM.
 
Old 07-30-2004, 11:37 PM   #325
Neil Mick
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
Rend Shakir wrote:
But you talk about cholera and electricity problems frightening people who have lived with far greater terrors and you always skim over the scenario of Saddam remaining in power and what a nightmare it would have been for all of us ...
So, Rend: when did you start hating the Sudanese?

OK, just kidding. But, there are reports now where the American and British forces are so taken up with Iraq, that it overwhelms the agenda, for discussing Darfur. In effect, the invasion is sucking up all of the resources.

And, corruption is rampant. Great, you've lost Hussein, but your country is a shambles, and in the hands of criminals.

Hussein was a terrible man. But, was he engaged in any pograms, when we invaded? You're so concerned as to whether or not I've spoken to an Iraqi: what do WE say, when the Sudanese ask the rest of the WORLD, why the invasion of Iraq, was more important than stopping the Janjaweed, huh?
 

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