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Old 07-26-2004, 11:36 PM   #276
rendshakir
 
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Re: Anti-Americanism

But look I agree that - the world is not a perfect world after the invasion - but for me, it has become a hopeful world, and definitely a better world - that's all I really wanted to say... :-)
 
Old 07-26-2004, 11:44 PM   #277
Neil Mick
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
Rend Shakir wrote:
It may be easier for someone not as emotionally involved, and so I commend you and your work in raising the yardstick - I just cannot get much beyond relief for now, perhaps I am still in shock but life under saddam was really no life at all...
Hopefully, I will never completely understand some of the horror of your life, under Hussein. And, I am glad that your life is so much better. I can understand your feelings of shock, at your new-found freedoms.

And no, I am not emotionally involved...not the same way that you are.
 
Old 07-26-2004, 11:57 PM   #278
rendshakir
 
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Re: Anti-Americanism

:-) - pretty good stuff that going from a completely opposing view you've managed to debate the topic without getting the thread closed! Hope it stays that way! I just thought I would add that with all these emotionally involved people around you might consider revising your signature - as it stands, it looks as though you are against the US invasion, and if there wasn't a US invasion, there would still be Saddam - many Iraqis, both from within and outside of Iraq will find this offensive. Perhaps you might moderate that by perhaps a line saying you're campaigning for a responsible occupation, for true democracy, economic freedom or whatever - putting the figures like that is pretty misleading - you said the US were involved in supporting Saddam, dont you think this gave them some responsibility to remove him?
 
Old 07-27-2004, 03:36 AM   #279
Neil Mick
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
Rend Shakir wrote:
:-) - pretty good stuff that going from a completely opposing view you've managed to debate the topic without getting the thread closed! Hope it stays that way!
Lol, thank you.

Quote:
I just thought I would add that with all these emotionally involved people around you might consider revising your signature - as it stands, it looks as though you are against the US invasion,
I am against the invasion.

Quote:
and if there wasn't a US invasion, there would still be Saddam - many Iraqis, both from within and outside of Iraq will find this offensive.
I am also not a supporter of Hussein. I think everyone's better off without him.

Quote:
Perhaps you might moderate that by perhaps a line saying you're campaigning for a responsible occupation,
A "responsible occupation??" Is that possible?

Quote:
for true democracy, economic freedom or whatever - putting the figures like that is pretty misleading
I am not "campaigning" for anything. I have a strong opinion about it, perhaps. But, I am happy to "agree to disagree."

Quote:
- you said the US were involved in supporting Saddam, dont you think this gave them some responsibility to remove him?
No, I do not. I think that it gave them the responsibility to stop giving him aid, demand an accounting for human rights, MAYBE even urge a multi-coalitional invasion (which it was not), if he were engaged in another ethnic cleansing (the worst of his atrocities occurred in the late '80's).

But, no: installing him does NOT mean that we have the "responsibility" to remove him. This is the same slippery slope we engendered, in removing Aristede.
 
Old 07-27-2004, 08:02 AM   #280
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Re: Anti-Americanism

HA ! Neil, you think THIS is torture !?

"Did senior officials order torture? We know of two relevant cases so far. One was Mr. Rums­ feld's December 2002 authorization of the use of techniques including hooding, nudity, stress positions, "fear of dogs" and physical contact with prisoners at the Guantanamo Bay base. A second was the distribution in September 2003 by the office of the top US commander in Iraq, Lt. Gen. Ricardo S. Sanchez, of an interrogation policy that included these techniques as well as others, among them sleep and dietary manipulation. In both cases lawyers inside the military objected that the policies would lead to violations of international law, including the convention banning torture."

This is not torture - try throwing people off of bldgs, ctting their heads off, cutting their toungues off, raping them, breaking bones, AND filmimg all of the above, itself a violation of the Geneva Convention.

Hmmmm, I wonder what dictator did all those things..... some of them even to prisoners of war....

Give up ?
 
Old 07-27-2004, 03:45 PM   #281
Neil Mick
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
John Hogan wrote:
HA ! Neil, you think THIS is torture !?

"Did senior officials order torture? We know of two relevant cases so far. One was Mr. Rums­ feld's December 2002 authorization of the use of techniques including hooding, nudity, stress positions, "fear of dogs" and physical contact with prisoners at the Guantanamo Bay base. A second was the distribution in September 2003 by the office of the top US commander in Iraq, Lt. Gen. Ricardo S. Sanchez, of an interrogation policy that included these techniques as well as others, among them sleep and dietary manipulation. In both cases lawyers inside the military objected that the policies would lead to violations of international law, including the convention banning torture."

This is not torture - try throwing people off of bldgs, ctting their heads off, cutting their toungues off, raping them, breaking bones, AND filmimg all of the above, itself a violation of the Geneva Convention. (Neil: so, I assume that you're pressing for the soldiers who filmed the abuses to be charged for Geneva violations, right? )

Hmmmm, I wonder what dictator did all those things..... some of them even to prisoners of war....

Give up ?
Not even close. In fact, consider yourself verbally koshi'd.

Read my last half-dozen responses to rendshakir, about putting ourselves on the same yardstick, with Hussein, for starters. You KNOW that the path you're on is tilting downward, with the sign reading "slippery slope," when you're constantly apologizing for your leaders' behavior, when you're announcing that "well, at LEAST we're better than Hussein!"

We are DEFINITELY on the wrong side of the law if this is our primary defence.

Further, your apology for torture excludes the 25 or so deaths in Abu Ghraib, from this simple "abuse." Gosh, I guess the surviving members of the victims' families (most of these victims swept up in mass-arrests) will be VASTLY comforted to know that their departed-ones died under "abuse," instead of "torture."

A less-compassionate observer might suggest that the difference between death by "abuse," and death by "torture" is...semantic? Apologizing?

Finally, the tortures PUBLICLY displayed and photographed are merely the tip of the iceberg. The problem is systemic, still ongoing (yes, ppl are STILL being tortured), and some methods being used are far worse, than the few you mentioned (one example: having your head and face smothered with a bag full of feces until you are nearly dead, before the bag is removed. Oh yeah: we sure are the "messengers of freedom," all right ).

Last edited by Neil Mick : 07-27-2004 at 03:50 PM. Reason: sp
 
Old 07-27-2004, 04:00 PM   #282
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
Not even close. In fact, consider yourself verbally koshi'd.

Read my last half-dozen responses to rendshakir, about putting ourselves on the same yardstick, with Hussein, for starters. You KNOW that the path you're on is tilting downward, with the sign reading "slippery slope," when you're constantly apologizing for your leaders' behavior, when you're announcing that "well, at LEAST we're better than Hussein!"

We are DEFINITELY on the wrong side of the law if this is our primary defence.

Further, your apology for torture excludes the 25 or so deaths in Abu Ghraib, from this simple "abuse." Gosh, I guess the surviving members of the victims' families (most of these victims swept up in mass-arrests) will be VASTLY comforted to know that their departed-ones died under "abuse," instead of "torture."

A less-compassionate observer might suggest that the difference between death by "abuse," and death by "torture" is...semantic? Apologizing?

Finally, the tortures PUBLICLY displayed and photographed are merely the tip of the iceberg. The problem is systemic, still ongoing (yes, ppl are STILL being tortured), and some methods being used are far worse, than the few you mentioned (one example: having your head and face smothered with a bag full of feces until you are nearly dead, before the bag is removed. Oh yeah: we sure are the "messengers of freedom," all right ).
Nooooo, the "give up?" question was whether you gave up trying to guess the dictator ! Not whether you gave up about Bush being the cause of all evil !
 
Old 07-27-2004, 04:02 PM   #283
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Re: Anti-Americanism

P.S. I also suspect that you didn't read the full text of the op-ed piece. No matter: but the last paragraph:

Quote:
The damage caused by the prisoner abuse cases is already enormous, and it is not over. We believe there is a way to mitigate and eventually overcome the debacle, but it is not by asking newspapers to go mute. What is needed is a full and independent investigation of the matter, including the decisions made by Mr. Rumsfeld and other senior officials, and a forthright and unambiguous commitment by President Bush to strictly observe US and international law in the future. That pledge should be accompanied by a return to the public disclosure of U.S. interrogation policies.
is a call for the Pres to return to observe int'l law. Don't you think that this is the best course of action for the Pres? Doesn't it embarrass you to consider that Our Illustrious Leader is spending his time with his lawyers to see how far he can push the line of defining torture, instead of standing up to uphold international law?
 
Old 07-27-2004, 04:04 PM   #284
Neil Mick
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
John Hogan wrote:
Not whether you gave up about Bush being the cause of all evil !
Great. Yeah, I got it. But you're wrong: Bush is NOT the "cause of all evil:" just the evil HE engendered (the same evil you so carefully sidestepped in examining, above)
 
Old 07-27-2004, 05:10 PM   #285
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
P.S. I also suspect that you didn't read the full text of the op-ed piece. No matter: but the last paragraph:



is a call for the Pres to return to observe int'l law. Don't you think that this is the best course of action for the Pres? Doesn't it embarrass you to consider that Our Illustrious Leader is spending his time with his lawyers to see how far he can push the line of defining torture, instead of standing up to uphold international law?

Yes, yes, I was sidestepping because I didn't want to continue. I had stopped before and this thread seemed to have stopped, but then people spoke again, and now you're at it again.

But, as to your question - I do not think the methods that I BOLDED in the previous post is torture. If you are asking me if it is, then NO it is not, to me. If this is all we are doing to the bastard terrorists and "evil doeers", then more power to Uncle Sam. If it goes beyond, then, yes, a discussion is warranted. Now Niel, if it is discovered after an investigation that NO torture was allowed / approved, etc, and that Bush is in the clear and did no wrong, will you then accept it ?

NOW, I am done. Later.... and god speed in your crusade....

Last edited by Hogan : 07-27-2004 at 05:13 PM.
 
Old 07-27-2004, 06:40 PM   #286
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Re: Anti-Americanism

John, this clown won't accept anything from you or anyone else that has posted thus far. It's clear that this pious know-it-all is the master of all knowledge and in his quick-witted little pea-brain, he is right, we are not. I could care less about his lefty dribble. He's been shrieking like a banshee and hasn't really said anything(kinda like his hero Billary).
.
 
Old 07-27-2004, 09:15 PM   #287
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Whooaa Daniel ... let's try not to say anything here we wouldn't say at the Dojo - there are strong opinions and extreme emotions about the war on Iraq, and that's understandable, but as other (now closed!) forums show - it really is a test for our Aikido... I'm sorry Neil! He was just kidding about the pea brain, I am sure! I think Daniel was just trying to say that it is easy to come across a bit fixed in your views and, personally I've felt that it has been tough getting any input into the beliefs that you hold. He was criticising the entrenchment and rigidity in the communication over this thread. Are there any aspects of your views over Iraq and the US that you would be willing to change following input from others? What, positively, would you have liked to have seen happen in this case? What would you like to see happen now - if you were in a position to decide? I am very interested in your views, as they are so at odds with my position - and let's embrace that as a challenge for our Ki folks! :-)
 
Old 07-27-2004, 09:52 PM   #288
Neil Mick
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
daniel vanhee wrote:
John, this clown

this pious know-it-all is the master of all knowledge

quick-witted little pea-brain,

shrieking like a banshee
The ends do not justify the means. You only belittle yourself, in insulting me (and, not bothering to engage in debate, going instead for the lowbrow smear).

Your reasons? Well, at least you make it plain...

Quote:
I could care less about his lefty dribble.
So, the only reason for your being here is to lob insults, if you're not interested in exchanging viewpoints? You're trying for threadlock?

Well, whatever. If you haven't the maturity, and courtesy, to talk to me as a human being, I'll just put you on "ignore" and that will be it, for you, AFAIC.

Quote:
He's been and hasn't really said anything(kinda like his hero Billary).
It astounds me how often Conservatives get me wrong.

So, since you have nothing positive to offer...here's MY momentary hijack of this thread:

I've been listening very carefully to the news of the DNC, in Boston. Not because I think anything substantive will come out of the Convention except pricey gladhandling, more mindless cheerleading, and a lot of ppl all saying the same thing...most of it myth. But still...

I listened to a little of Clinton's speech, considered the Dem platform and its urge to send more troops into the quagmire. I think of John Kerry as the next President, and ut doesn't fill me with a sense of confidence for the future (of course, if W is elected: that will be very, very bad for all concerned). I reminisce on how badly Clinton let us down.

Still, he DOES make a far superior orator to W...his voice makes my head ache.

But, all this reminiscing is not about my feelings for the failures of the Democrats. Its about how they treat the protestors.

Do you know what the Democratic party has so kindly built for those of us who wish to express our dissent, of this travesty? A cage, made of fencing and barbed wire, that even a judge has said looks like a detainment camp. Maximum allowed in the Free Speech Zone, is 1,000.

A Detainment Camp. For Free Speech. In the City known for its free speech.

Please...someone tell me that they see all the irony in this.
But maybe irony truly IS dead, once Kissinger was awarded the Nobel.
 
Old 07-27-2004, 10:29 PM   #289
Neil Mick
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Thank you for the courteous response, Rend (is that your first name?) I shall respond more fully, tomorrow.
 
Old 07-27-2004, 11:14 PM   #290
vanstretch
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Debate? You are merely seeking to capitalize on others views Neil, and then stand and shout -"aha, I have won,"/nothing more. Thats what you sound like anyway. Didn't mommy give you enough milk as an infant? You and your long winded replies are moot,pious,pompous,and elitist. Did you serve? Do you have any friends? You don't appear to know how to make any with your diatribe and elitist bs. You are an armchair quarterback and I am sick your left-wing crybaby namby-pamby know-it-all tude and your useless list of stats, acting as a paragon of virtue. I am speaking to you Neil. I am certain that you will be the next recipient for the nobel peace prize-I am voting for you, I want to be just like you neil. You are the hero of the public servant and a great american. Thank you
 
Old 07-27-2004, 11:46 PM   #291
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
Rend Shakir wrote:
Whooaa Daniel ... let's try not to say anything here we wouldn't say at the Dojo - there are strong opinions and extreme emotions about the war on Iraq, and that's understandable, but as other (now closed!) forums show - it really is a test for our Aikido... I'm sorry Neil! He was just kidding about the pea brain, I am sure!
No he wasn't and I AM SURE OF THAT!

Actually, if Neil were to say this stuff in a dojo during a class, which I really doubt he does, I know I'd provide a unharmonious response were I around. Note I said during class.

But then were we in the "City Which Is Against Everything Resembling Progress Unless It Involves Handouts To The Homeless, Building Dumps In Someone Else's Backyard, Bad Teeth, Bad Health, And Increased Taxation" I'd likely be the only guy who felt that way.
 
Old 07-28-2004, 01:21 PM   #292
rendshakir
 
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
Thank you for the courteous response, Rend (is that your first name?) I shall respond more fully, tomorrow.
Yes Rend is my first name.

Looking forward to hearing more in this discussion...

Daniel, I don't blame you for strongly attacking the "peace" position - especially if you or people you know have served. I feel the same sense of despair when confronted with anti-war campaigners. I agonise over these people - but a lot of our differences are because we come from different perspectives, rather than having different values. We share a lot of common ground underneath it all.

We all want to fight for human dignity and liberty - but the difference is in the weapons we choose, our tactics, what we think will be most effective. We have whole lives, literally invested in particular standpoints so it is hardly surprising it is a test for our Ki. What we know from Aikido is that the attacker can sometimes put themselves at a disadvantage, and the force of their attack can be used against them - it can take them off balance and throw them to the ground - the same thing for verbal, non-verbal and any other kind of conflict. I have to keep reminding myself of this everyday and I find it very hard sometimes when overcome with emotion not to attack in such a way that I can be taken off balance. I've already been taken off balance once by my emotion in this thread!

Responding with anger will always give your opponent an opening. Respond with too much emotion, and your opponent gets the raised credibility of a more "objective" standpoint in a discussion. All I'm saying here is - let's "practice" together please rather than "fight" - otherwise there is a danger of emotional injuries occurring in just the same way as a similar style of fighting in the Dojo would cause an unacceptable level of physical injuries.

We may see things very differently but if this world isn't big enough for the both of us, we need to make it a bigger world! If those who practice Aikido can't have confrontations without causing serious emotional or bodily harm - then what chance is there for the rest of the world?!!!

Thanks to you all, I am learning a lot in this thread!
 
Old 07-29-2004, 04:28 AM   #293
Neil Mick
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
daniel vanhee wrote:
Debate? You are merely seeking to capitalize on others views Neil, and then stand and shout -"aha, I have won,"/nothing more.
You had me reading along, up to about here. I was even considering what you were trying to say...maybe (as someone often does) I should consider.

But then...blammo!

Quote:
Didn't mommy give you enough milk as an infant?

moot,pious,pompous,and elitist.

Quote:
Did you serve? Do you have any friends?
I don't have to explain myself to you. I don't need to be insulted. Remember, the next stranger entering your dojo COULD well be me. That's a nice thought to consider, isn't it? Insulting someone before you have even made an opening bow?

Tsk. Ignore-land, for you.
 
Old 07-29-2004, 04:34 AM   #294
Neil Mick
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
Erik Haselhofer wrote:
No he wasn't and I AM SURE OF THAT!

Actually, if Neil were to say this stuff in a dojo during a class, which I really doubt he does, I know I'd provide a unharmonious response were I around. Note I said during class.
I managed to sneak one in, during the Summer Seminar, but it was part of a class on nonviolent communication, so it was appropriate. But no: I would never express a political view during a class. How weird THAT would be.

Quote:
But then were we in the "City Which Is Against Everything Resembling Progress Unless It Involves Handouts To The Homeless, Building Dumps In Someone Else's Backyard, Bad Teeth, Bad Health, And Increased Taxation" I'd likely be the only guy who felt that way.
My head is spinning.

Please, dude, like: don't mock us 'Cruzian's, man! We mean you no harm!
 
Old 07-29-2004, 04:40 AM   #295
Neil Mick
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
John Hogan wrote:
Yes, yes, I was sidestepping because I didn't want to continue. I had stopped before and this thread seemed to have stopped, but then people spoke again, and now you're at it again.
"At it??" Oh, whatever.

Quote:
If this is all we are doing to the bastard terrorists and "evil doeers", then more power to Uncle Sam.
60% of these ppl were arrested in MASS ARRESTS. That means, a good chunk of them are innocent. 10%? 20%? No way to tell.

So, the US Army (and private contractors) are torturing INNOCENT PEOPLE.

Quote:
if it is discovered after an investigation that NO torture was allowed / approved, etc, and that Bush is in the clear and did no wrong, will you then accept it ?
What investigation? Authored by whom? Bush? Kissinger? Poindexter?

Depends upon the source. But, such a scenario is unlikely. I imagine that W isn't getting much sleep, at night.

Quote:
NOW, I am done. Later.... and god speed in your crusade....
I don't have a "crusade:" I have an "opinion"

Last edited by Neil Mick : 07-29-2004 at 04:43 AM.
 
Old 07-29-2004, 05:10 AM   #296
Neil Mick
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
Rend Shakir wrote:
I've felt that it has been tough getting any input into the beliefs that you hold.
Actually, I thought I was pretty clear about my beliefs. Sorry if they seem unclear.

Quote:
Are there any aspects of your views over Iraq and the US that you would be willing to change following input from others?
My views are constantly changing. Some incrementally, many not so. If you mean my views over the war: um, no. I doubt I could change YOUR mind on this point, either.

But, debate and exchanges like this DO give a better insight over why ppl view a political events, a certain way.

Quote:
What, positively, would you have liked to have seen happen in this case? What would you like to see happen now - if you were in a position to decide?
It depends upon what point in history you're referring. Hussein's growth of power is an example of the US propping up violent dictators to extend its power. So, I wouldn't use this militaristic method of world hegemony. But, this sort of thing goes back in use to the Roman Empire (and, look what happened to them).

But, in disarming Hussein? I thought about your question. Bush actually had a narrow window of opportunity to settle all this nonviolently, when he had all of the armies ready, the Air Force ready to go. At that moment, Hussein was throwing up the white flag and agreed to near-total compliance, for IAEA inspections. He was cooked, and he knew it. He had no actual wmd's to ward off Bush's invasion-plans.

At that moment (were I Bush): I'd have demanded an immediate, full investigation of possible wmd's and allowed the UN inspectors to finish their report (which, they were never allowed). Then: I'd have worked within the UN to stop the embargo.

With 1/3 of the US Army poised to strike, and Hussein holding a dud poker-hand for wmd's, I'd have forced Hussein to comply with an awful lot of concessions to send the US military beast home again. But then again: hindsight is 20/20.
Still, I remember thinking this just before the invasion: Bush lost an opportunity to squeeze out a lot of concessions from Hussein, and end it all peacefully.

But, Hussein was the US lapdog once, and I'm sure that if the priority of US foreign policy WERE actually human rights--I'm certain that Hussein could be reined in, without an invasion. He thought he could get away with invading Kuwait, after all. Many of his atrocities were committed while he was a US ally.
 
Old 07-29-2004, 08:14 AM   #297
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
...60% of these ppl were arrested in MASS ARRESTS. That means, a good chunk of them are innocent. 10%? 20%? No way to tell.

So, the US Army (and private contractors) are torturing INNOCENT PEOPLE. ...

NOW you're comparing "mass arrests" to torture !?

Sheez.....
 
Old 07-29-2004, 01:52 PM   #298
vanstretch
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Its absolutely guaranteed Mr. know-it-all will respond to spin everything to his liking. That's a given. And yknow what? To control the cow, ya gotta give him his pasture! Let us kneel.amen.
 
Old 07-29-2004, 02:18 PM   #299
rendshakir
 
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Neil - Your ideal scenario in all cases seems to involve "controlling" Saddam - "disarming" him, making him "comply" with UN requirements... This was a very evil dictatorship that ruined the lives of everyone Iraqi, whether inside or outside of Iraq - yet in your ideal scenario - HE STAYS "as long as he behaves like a good boy." The killings that he ordered of innocent Iraqis and visiting civilians were not ALL televised - yet you act as if Hussain did nothing wrong after the chemical attacks in the 1980s. Let's clarify for you that he killed over 50,000 people the year before he was invaded, including over 450 kuwaiti prisoners of war... Not your problem? Maybe not. But if you are going to quote civilian casualties in your arguments - at least think about this point - oh and I'd just LOVE to meet the Iraqi who agrees with you... but I think there's a very good chance he's in a cell awaiting his trial now...
 
Old 07-29-2004, 02:42 PM   #300
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
Rend Shakir wrote:
Neil - Your ideal scenario in all cases seems to involve "controlling" Saddam - "disarming" him, making him "comply" with UN requirements... This was a very evil dictatorship that ruined the lives of everyone Iraqi, whether inside or outside of Iraq - yet in your ideal scenario - HE STAYS "as long as he behaves like a good boy." The killings that he ordered of innocent Iraqis and visiting civilians were not ALL televised - yet you act as if Hussain did nothing wrong after the chemical attacks in the 1980s. Let's clarify for you that he killed over 50,000 people the year before he was invaded, including over 450 kuwaiti prisoners of war... Not your problem? Maybe not. But if you are going to quote civilian casualties in your arguments - at least think about this point - oh and I'd just LOVE to meet the Iraqi who agrees with you... but I think there's a very good chance he's in a cell awaiting his trial now...
Neil doesn't care about what Saddamy has done, as long as we don't waste his taxpayer money on it. He's more concerned about that - he said so in a post.
 

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