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Old 01-15-2003, 12:23 PM   #26
siwilson
Dojo: Kenshinkai Yoshinkan Aikido
Location: Portsmouth
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 450
England
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Quote:
Daniel Linden (DGLinden) wrote:
I see weapons as an individual art form that we integrate into the training of aikido, not as a part of aikido.
I think this is a bit of a shame. When you see something as different, you approach it differently. When you see it as part of the whole, you approach it in the same way.

If you train empty hand Nage Waza as "Aikido", but then train Ken as "Ken", and Jo as "Jo", you are only as good as you can do each seperate way.

If you train empty hand Nage Waza as "Aikido", but then train Ken as "Aikido", and Jo as "Aikido", you can be so much more, because everything builds upon everything else.

Best wishes

Osu!
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Old 01-15-2003, 01:39 PM   #27
leuwit
Dojo: Leaky Roof Cottage
Location: Olympia, Wa
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I have read several of the replies to this very interesting question. Many of them suggest a deal of intimacy with trainings and philosophies which I appreciate a great deal. One thing that sticks out for me is the idea that one training is for everyone. A one size fits all answer. I Love and respect my weapons training. I have been introduced to many of my own inner roadblocks through experience with bokken and jyo. It has been said that "true victory is self victory". I love weapons training, long hours dancing in a dimly lit room, only the sound of breathing, counts, and hakama as I skim the tatami. I have found many things there, some I have embraced, some I have revoked, some I don't know what to do with. But it is all me. Another may find that there is nothing of value. Who am I to say how another should (or should not) train? Domination and dictatorship were never among the principals of Aikido in my school. Still, I make this suggestion. In the weapons training, one may find there are demons and gods. I love it, hard as it may be. Next week I begin Kokoro Shugyo, and this practice brings me life. Katsujinken, and Satsujinto are the words my instructor used to describe intention of sword use. Do we bring the world together or cut it apart? It cannot be brought together if I say my way is the only way, or hold rigidly to anothers ideals.
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Old 01-15-2003, 11:39 PM   #28
AikiRooster
 
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Location: Maryland. USA.
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Question My humble opinion.



In my humble opinion, I think weapons training enhances your overall training and understanding behind the principles and philosophy of the Aiki way. However, I don't think it is necessary per se. I think that if you have the training along with a qualified Instructor available to you, I think your cheating yourself of details that you might miss out on if you didn't take part in the weapons curriculum. Again, I wouldn't say it's a necessary ingredient to understanding Aiki. Although, if you compare it to a dictionary for example, would like to have a Webster's that is 150 pages or a Webster's that 1,500 pages?

Some folks are truly alive only because it's against the law to kill them. . .
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Old 01-16-2003, 02:59 AM   #29
mike lee
Location: Taipei, Taiwan
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priorities

Quote:
Domination and dictatorship were never among the principals of Aikido in my school.
What about loyalty to O-Sensei and HIS art?
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Old 01-16-2003, 03:18 AM   #30
Edward
Location: Bangkok
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Re: priorities

I have the impression that many instructors have never had any formal training in Buki Waza. That's why eventhough these instructors would have liked to teach weapons, they are unable to do it because of this reason.

I have also visited a few dojos where the instructors learned weapons only from videos. I had to really control myself not to laugh because what they were doing looked more like kung fu movies (no disrespect) than aikido.
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Old 01-16-2003, 05:29 AM   #31
mike lee
Location: Taipei, Taiwan
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true grit

Quote:
I have also visited a few dojos where the instructors learned weapons only from videos. I had to really control myself not to laugh because what they were doing looked more like kung fu movies (no disrespect) than aikido.
In the end, everyone has to take responsibility for their own training. My first teacher in the US was poorly qualified and trained and he new it. I had far more MA experience when I started taking his class, and students often asked me if I was better than the teacher.

I took responsibility for my situation and my training by frequently visiting higher-ranking teachers at every opportunity. Although I never blamed my teacher for his lack of knowledge and skill, it was clear that he was not highly motivated. He just wanted to practice the same basic things, over and over again. Nevertheless, I was happy to have a place to practice on a regular basis, and I never held his attitude against him. I maintained an attitude of respect and loyalty and never entered into discussions with other students regarding "who is better."

I was always a highly motivated martial artist. Many other students and teachers in aikido are not.

If one truly wants to improve and gain a complete understanding of aikido, one must sometimes improvise, adapt and overcome.

Last edited by mike lee : 01-16-2003 at 05:32 AM.
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Old 01-16-2003, 12:05 PM   #32
leuwit
Dojo: Leaky Roof Cottage
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Mike,

You ask "What about loyalty to O'sensei and his art?"

I never trained with o'Sensei, And what I know of the art, that this practice is something other than a practice of domination, is that it has a rich and complex history dating back thousands of years. O'sensei honored them also. Should we stop at him? O'sensei was a great teacher, and one who lived close enough to our time of life to have a powerful impact- Indeed, his wisdom and creativity revisioned the "art of war" into the "art of peace". Frankly, I am still amazed at Sun Tzu and the amount of pacifist energy he conjured in his highly militarized times. What O'Sensei has done is in many ways beyond my vision: he passed from our side of the veil a year before I was born, and even his most senior ranked students admit that they do not capture the complete teachings- many were left on the sidelines by his mysticism, and could only mimic the movements. And they are beyond me.

The old Irish adage "one must teach the boy to dance before giving him a sword" suits me, I work within and press my limits where I am able: I gratefully (and sometimetimes begrudgingly) accept a good teacher. The sword is a good teacher with whom I have a good thing. My loyalty to O'sensei and his art is to seek to embody "True Victory is Self Victory". I find this to some small degree in weapons. It is for me. I answered yes to the question regarding weapons being necessary. I answer for me. What fulfills your training? What practice do you make that allows you to say, "I have changed, I am able to move with something today that I conflicted with yesterday"? I Find this in Jyo, Bokken, Ki aikido Taigi, Suwari Waza, Kokyuho, and many other arts. If I do not find that (I did not find that in trombone practice, for instance)then I do not make it a part of my regular practice. Other's experience is theirs. REQUIREING others do things will not likely engender a love in them for the practice. A good teacher helps a student want a practice, so that the student does it for themself, not for the satisfaction of rules. Watch "Red Beard" with Tashiro Mifune, directed by Akira Kurosawa.

A skilled cellist holds the instrument softly, yet with firmness, able to play feirce and gentle in the movement of a single breath. Is this not aikido? The Spirit that moves it, not the choreography, makes it in harmony with the energy of the universe. Choreography is the basest form of our art, necessary, but in the end, throw it away ( I am still clinging to it, but I have seen...) Watch videos of O'sensei as he is attacked on all sides by the Senior students of his dojo. He is Old, and often appears to fall, rather than doing a technique. Yet he is untouched, and the eight shihan are unknowing of his whereabouts. Weapons? Aikido?

an old man having a stumble at a fortunate moment? I can't say. Its a film. A short, poor quality one at that. In aikido I seek to expose myself, and more and more aikido is walking, or riding my bicycle, or doing my work, as well as being on the mat. Follow your love, and inner expeditionaries. I suggest Do not cling too tightly to ideals. They lie outside of us, and are often placed there by others expectations, and not our own truths. More powerful than the sword, the intention that holds it. The sword is vehicle for polishing the soul and spirit. A good one for me. I focus that intention through the sword, and the pen. Bunbu Ichi, they say, Pen and Sword in Accord.

repects,

Deston

thank you for Training!
respectfully,
deston
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Old 01-16-2003, 12:28 PM   #33
mike lee
Location: Taipei, Taiwan
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truth dominates

Quote:
And what I know of the art, that this practice is something other than a practice of domination, is that it has a rich and complex history dating back thousands of years.
I'm not really sure what you're talking about in reference to "domination." The way you're using the word, it almost appears that you're talking about some kind of S&M! In any case, O-Sensei was quite clear about this, saying that one should avoid fighting, but if an aikidoist must fight, he should fight to win! I consider this to be good advise, but if you consider this to be domination, then so be it.

The art of aikido was established in 1949. It does not date back thousands of years, although some of the arts do, such as Shaolin Kung Fu.
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Old 01-16-2003, 01:12 PM   #34
leuwit
Dojo: Leaky Roof Cottage
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I am very sorry if you are confused about the subtle distinction of conversation regarding weapons in marital arts (S&M) and Martial arts, (harmonies, ordomination and oppression.) I practice Aikido and weapons to clarify my spirit, I do not presume to teach. My weapons practice, weather the sen of a sword or the line of thought, are about distinguising between a potentially fruitful conflict, where a growth may arise, from arguements of petty battles which are interested in small ends and views, and not the shared benefit of life for all, including the agressor. I Do not confuse victory with domination. I Choose victory.

As for the begining of aikido, little trees (shaolin) existed long before being called such. That O'sensei named the art in 1949 is not enough to convince me that the spirit of this art we share is less than timeless and universal. To give all the power to one moment in time and to place the burden of our quest on the memory and shoulders of one man, who was a shinto practitioner and saw gods and demons and teachers and harmony in all the unverse, seems to me to deny the experience he had- that our art and our teacher is ultimately the universe. If people want to say becoming like Ueshiba Morihei is the ends our Aikido training, that is their business, and have at it. I Honor the moon, and respect the finger that points at it, and believe there is a distinction.

thank you for Training!
respectfully,
deston
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Old 01-16-2003, 01:24 PM   #35
mike lee
Location: Taipei, Taiwan
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from hard to soft

Quote:
I practice Aikido and weapons to clarify my spirit, I do not presume to teach.
I practice aikido and weapons first and foremost for self-defense, that is, to be able if need be, to defend myself, my family, my friends, my country and even this messed up world.

I also train hard to ensure that my aikido is martially effective, since it is a martiall art. I also work hard to make sure I am a complete and competent teacher so that my students' aikido will also be martially effective and complete.

This being accomplished, I train to destroy the demons within.

Last edited by mike lee : 01-16-2003 at 01:27 PM.
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Old 01-16-2003, 01:48 PM   #36
leuwit
Dojo: Leaky Roof Cottage
Location: Olympia, Wa
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Good! Good! we agree, I believe! My instructor used to say, (forgive me, I can't recall the japanese) "its just pretty if you can't take it to the bank". We have taken up so much of this board (I have enjoyed the conversation)I must acknowledge we have, for the last half dozen posts, dominated a very interesting conversation. It is nice that you have such a devoted purpose in training. I am sure we will converse more. now let us see what others have to say on weapons training? May your training be fruitful!

thank you for Training!
respectfully,
deston
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Old 06-30-2005, 12:38 PM   #37
peter martin-browning
Dojo: sei ro kan, nottingham
Location: Nottingham
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Re: Poll: Is weapons training necessary to understand aikido?

What I noticed in the very beginning of my training is that doing the weapons work accelerated my cognitive understanding of the shape my body should be making, and gave me a feel of the shapes my body and limbs should make to help to best channel the ki, making my movements more powerful.
The value of weapons training is something you can verify by reference to your own experience.

At your service


Peter Martin-Browning
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Old 06-30-2005, 01:10 PM   #38
mj
Location: livingston, scotland
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Re: Poll: Is weapons training necessary to understand aikido?

Quote:
Hanna Björk wrote:
Well, did he actually say that? May I ask where?

Just wondering.
OSensei said 'aiki wa ken no michi' Aiki is the way of the sword

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