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Old 01-15-2003, 09:23 AM   #26
Michael Brown
Dojo: Aikido of San Jose
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Hi John,

Seagal came to our dojo, Aikido of San Jose (CA), for a seminar in 1990. There was a great deal of training. He shared some pretty interesting stuff. I am just glad I was never his routine crash-test uke...

Best regards,

Mike
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Old 01-15-2003, 10:30 AM   #27
Ron Tisdale
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Hello Mr. Nelson,

Just to give an opposing viewpoint (I personally have nothing for or against the man).

We are talking about someone whose personal life is quite bizarre (the news reports of it anyway) and someone who has either spread misinformation about himself or allowed it to go unchallenged. As far as his aikido, I think the tapes I have seen of him in an earlier time were excellent...and he also seems to have many excellent ex-students, so he did at one time perform and teach what would seem to be excellent aikido.

But in terms of what I would look for in an instructor, I'd be more interested in what a smaller person could teach me about handling larger people than what a big man could teach me about handling mostly smaller people. If that makes any sense. I guess an overall sense of balance (in his personal life and in the discussions about him) would be the perspective that I would look for.

Ron (hey, none of us is perfect) Tisdale

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 01-15-2003, 12:17 PM   #28
DGLinden
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I trained for a weekend with Steve when he was a sandan and I was a nidan. If he has grown incrementally he is one of the toughest and smoothest big guys around. He is deceptively long and strong. As a big guy myself, I was impressed, I've also had a few of his students come to my dojo and train and they are excellant.

As a person? Who can judge the public person who is not there in his shoes? He is trying to sell movies. Of his arrrogance though, there is no question although none of this was the question. Hi Don.

Daniel G. Linden
Author of ON MASTERING AIKIDO (c) 2004
Founder Shoshin Aikido Dojos
www.shoshindojo.com
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Old 01-15-2003, 02:23 PM   #29
Don_Modesto
Dojo: Messores Sensei (Largo, Fl.)
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Re: Seagal Sensei.

Quote:
Timothy Nelson (Mr.Rooster) wrote:
In my humble opinion, folks that bad mouth Seagal Sensei do so usually out of pure jealousy.

DJM: The Joseph McCarthy argument: "The real problem is with those disagreeing with my viewpoint..."

As a true fan of the sir however,

DJM: "True fan"--echoes of "true believer"...

Granted the media sucks and hate him for whatever reason

DJM: There are reasons. A true fan might prefer plucking out their eye to seeing them. From: http://www.lukeford.net/profiles/pro...ven_seagal.htm

Ned Zeman writes in the October 2002 issue of Vanity Fair: "Seagal's film career is in a death spiral thanks in part to his vile, simian behaviour toward colleagues, women, employees and reporters - not to mention his serial dissembling, his dime-store theology and his all-round vulgarism."

and they will never print a stroy with the truth about him.

DJM: A tautology? IE, if it's not good, it's not the truth? Hmm...

However, as aikidoka or students of any style with aiki principles, I don't think it's proper anybody bad mouth a legitimate Sensei authenticated by a legitimate organization.

DJM: With the caveat: "Without good reason." There are reasons.

So, unless the sir does something really stupid like commit a priestlike felony, let's give him the benefit of the doubt.

DJM: Done. He's settled out of court on sexuall harrassment charges and according the the website above, is a bigamist.

Also, about his Aikido, I don't understand how anyone that truly knows anything at all about him can deny it's realness, authenticity, whatever you want a call it.

DJM: I've only heard good things about his aikido. Brings to mind Ellis Amdur's post on lineage where he says he's known too many good practitioners who were bad people...
Hi, Dan.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
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Old 01-15-2003, 02:58 PM   #30
Erik
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Quote:
Michael Brown wrote:
Hi John,

Seagal came to our dojo, Aikido of San Jose (CA), for a seminar in 1990. There was a great deal of training. He shared some pretty interesting stuff. I am just glad I was never his routine crash-test uke...
Saw that one myself. He had skill and others who knew him around these parts confirm that. Plus, you have to admire someone who decides to do something then goes and does it the way he has.

Alas, there is the rest of it.
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Old 01-15-2003, 03:35 PM   #31
Talon
 
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Thats some pretty diturbing articles about Steven Segal.

by the way is this true ?

"NY Post: The [Vanity Fair] piece raises questions about Seagal's prowess as a martial artist, recounting how stuntman Gene LeBell once choked Seagal unconscious during an aikido demonstration, and how Seagal ducked a bout with champion black belt Bob Wall, who promised to rip off his head and defecate down his neck"

If segal is a 7th Dan and some stund guy chokes him out. It makes me wonder either about his rank or the effectiveness of Aikid in general.

No disrespect by any means its just disturbing to me being a student of Aikido.

Thoughts on the matter?
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Old 01-15-2003, 03:47 PM   #32
Ron Tisdale
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Ok, calling Judo Gene Lebell "some stunt guy" is your first mistake. He'd be likely to choke most guys half his age out. In seconds.

Your second mistake is pinning your commitment to your training on the outcome of ***one*** other person in a situation which you didn't witness, and likely don't understand. Exactly **why** would you do that?

Ron Tisdale
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Old 01-15-2003, 04:10 PM   #33
Talon
 
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like I mentioned before. I did not want my post to come off as I believe all that I read on some web page or have any negative connottation towards Segul Sensei. You are absolutely right that I should not call Judo Gene Labell "some stunt guy" . unfortunately the article that Iread on the above mentioned web site did not mention that Gene Labell had any martial arts background and I personally obviusly did not do sufficient research on the man to get information on his martial arts background.

To answer one of your statements, I do not pin my commitment to my training on the outcome of that one situation I didnt witness. I love Aikido and I dont think I will ever stop training or exploring it till I die.

Please accept my deepest appologies if I have offended you personally or anyone on this board by my post. It was not my intention dto do so. I just wanted to hear some comments from people who I consider the authority on the art instead of the reporters who wrote the articles.

I sincerely thank you for your answer to my post as it enlightened me for one on the martial atrs training of Gene Labell of which I was not aware of.

Paul
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Old 01-15-2003, 04:13 PM   #34
Talon
 
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Please forgive my dislexia when typing and poor proofing prior to posting.

Paul
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Old 01-15-2003, 04:13 PM   #35
Mark Barlow
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I've been fortunate enough to train with Gene LeBell several times over the last 12 years and have been choked out by Judo Gene twice. Trust me, no one who has been on the mat with him feels it is a disgrace to be choked out by the best in the business. Even though Gene Sensei is in his late 60's, his speed and technique is the match for just about anyone.
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Old 01-15-2003, 04:28 PM   #36
Talon
 
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This is starting to make alot more sense to me now. Thank you for educating me on the matter of Gene LeBell. I knew that there would be a logical explanation to this aspect of the article.

Of course if Segal Sensei did not expect that level of skill from an oponent, he may have been at dissadvantage as well.
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Old 01-15-2003, 05:59 PM   #37
AikiRooster
 
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Thumbs down LeBell Sensei.

Sensei LeBell is very interesting and I have always been a fan of his also.

www.genelebell.com:


Some folks are truly alive only because it's against the law to kill them. . .
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Old 01-15-2003, 10:10 PM   #38
Don_Modesto
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Quote:
Paul Nowicki (Talon) wrote:
by the way is this true ?

"NY Post: The [Vanity Fair] piece raises questions about Seagal's prowess as a martial artist, recounting how stuntman Gene LeBell once choked Seagal unconscious during an aikido demonstration, and how Seagal ducked a bout with champion black belt Bob Wall, who promised to rip off his head and defecate down his neck"
Regardless of LeBell's famous talents, I've heard that both he and Seagal deny that it happened. This story keeps going around, though. Don't know about the Wall thing. That was news to me, too.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
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Old 01-15-2003, 11:52 PM   #39
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Unhappy Unfortuantely true.

The Bob Wall incident was true. It wasn't just him though. The so-called dirty dozen wanted to fight Seagal supposedly for some bad remarks Seagal made about Chuck Norris when Seagal first became a movie dude.

Some folks are truly alive only because it's against the law to kill them. . .
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Old 01-16-2003, 07:34 AM   #40
DGLinden
Dojo: Shoshin Aikido Dojos
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Paul,

You have touched upon one of the great myths of Aikido - that all of its Senseis are unbeatable martial masters. Truth be told, most of them could not last a single round with a modestly tained boxer from a no-name gym.

Sorry, its the truth. The two things which are never spoken are that it takes so many years to get any good at this art that you find yourself old before you are really competant. The second is that most Sensei are not cross trained with good offensive technique.

Lets take the first - There just aren't any pro sportmen over the age of 40 (other than golfers). Timing, speed, strength - they fade and all the Aikido training won't replace the ravages of time. I know most of the Sensei out there actually believe that they can cause some 25 year old to fly over his hand just by waving it in the air but the truth is in the white belts, isn't it? We do learn an amazing amount of wondrous body mechanics that we then apply to motion and balance and thereby execute 'majic'. But face it - we really like our specially trained ukes...

As for the second - As Aikido teachers we are really limited as to our ability to deliver a body or head breaking strike simply because the average Sensei does not do any work on heavy bags or makiwara. Those who do have a real advantage and may actually be able to defend themselves from a trained attacker. Anyone who has seen a boxer take a solid left hook to the head from someone like Foreman or Ali, or Tyson - and keep fighting - should realize that we mere mortals live in a completely different world from this. And believe it, they could hit even the best Aikidoka.

Against an untrained attacker, well, Aikido is just fine.

The really important thing to consider when dealing with high ranked instructors in not their ability to stop Miker Tyson, but rather their ability to deliver the necessary lessons to the class and make it understandable. A good teacher is like a good coach - the knowledge is there, but the body has begun to fail. Paul , don't mythologize Aikido Teachers, they are rarely able to live up to thier own press. And I include myself.

Daniel G. Linden
Author of ON MASTERING AIKIDO (c) 2004
Founder Shoshin Aikido Dojos
www.shoshindojo.com
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Old 01-16-2003, 07:40 AM   #41
andrew
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[quote="Pete Swann (peteswann)"]
Quote:
"Tim HarleyWe need to be careful in judging someone's ability by what Hollywood portrays.[/QUOTE wrote:
Seagal was late arriving, rambled for ages about spiritual stuff whilst on the stage wearing one of his shiny spangly jackets and showed them almost no Aikido at all!!
I heard that story too, although the jacket was hot pink in colour the last time. I don't think it's true at all.

andrew
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Old 01-16-2003, 10:37 AM   #42
Talon
 
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Daniel Lindon, Thank you for that isnightful post. I'm sure you had more training than I since I'm still a newby. I guess the point is that Aikido, although is very interesting to study (because of body mechanics, joint locks, etc.) is not really an effective martial art. Since a modestly trained boxer form a no name gym could defeat most of the Aikido masters.

If that is true, which I cant argue with due to my limited experence in Aikido, then my question is.

Why even bother training Aikido (as a martial art)? Are we all really fooling ourselves about this art? I understand that Aikido is more than a martial art with its philosophy, spiritual element etc. If thats all it is then why even bother with the martial aspect?

If its so innefective when tested against modestly trained opponents why bother training the Aikido martial aspect?

This is a very disturbing thought.

If its true, I guess I will take up some other martial art to complement Aikido since I had the impression that if I concentrate on Aikido (only) one day I will become profficient enough at it that I'll be able to defend myself. If thats not true, I will still take Aikido for its all wonderful "secrets" but will also take up boxing or something else to ensure that I can defend myself.

The main problem with that the way I see it is if I take up another martilal art, Its style of fighting will be so much different than Aikido that I will never end up using Aikido anyway. For instance the boxers Maai, stance and philosophy is greately different than Aikido so in a self defence situation I guess I'd have to just pick one over the other.

Considering that a modestly trained opponent could take me out if I use my Aikido skills, I guess I'd end up using the other martial arts skills I've learned. This of course comes back to the same question: why train the martial side of Aikido if its innefective?

Personally i'm not so sure about a modestly trained boxer taking out most of the Aikido masters in a fight, but like i mentioned before i'm still a newby.

I'd love to hear everyones thoughts on the matter.

Paul
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Old 01-16-2003, 10:43 AM   #43
mike lee
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not so fast

Quote:
I guess the point is that Aikido, although is very interesting to study (because of body mechanics, joint locks, etc.) is not really an effective martial art. Since a modestly trained boxer form a no name gym could defeat most of the Aikido masters.
Even if said aikido master was holding a sword? which by the way, is part of any good aikidoist's arsenal.
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Old 01-16-2003, 10:52 AM   #44
Talon
 
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Well I guess if the Boxer was holding a Gun he would.....lol

Lets stay on the topic of a hand to hand self defence encounter.
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Old 01-16-2003, 11:05 AM   #45
mike lee
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Quote:
Lets stay on the topic of a hand to hand self defence encounter.
Well, I'm no "master," but I feel pretty confident that I could take most boxers down to the ground in about 15 seconds.
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Old 01-16-2003, 12:29 PM   #46
Don_Modesto
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Re: Unfortuantely true.

Quote:
Timothy Nelson (Mr.Rooster) wrote:
The so-called dirty dozen wanted to fight Seagal supposedly for some bad remarks Seagal made about Chuck Norris when Seagal first became a movie dude.
Who are the dirty dozen and

what did Seagal say about Norris?

Thanks.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
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Old 01-16-2003, 12:42 PM   #47
Don_Modesto
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Quote:
Daniel Linden (DGLinden) wrote:
You have touched upon one of the great myths of Aikido - that all of its Senseis are unbeatable martial masters. Truth be told, most of them could not last a single round with a modestly tained boxer from a no-name gym.

DJM: Whew! I'm glad whenever someone comes out and says that! (Where IS the unpronounceable one these days anyway?) It's so obvious when you sit back and think. But when the obvious is clouded by absurdity--think Sanctity of Life Day as authored by the Death Penalty Governer--we often seem overpowered. Tito Ortiz went to the top of the UFC in 18 months. 18. Segue back to Dan:

Sorry, its the truth. The two things which are never spoken are that it takes so many years to get any good at this art that you find yourself old before you are really competant.

But face it - we really like our specially trained ukes...

DJM: "Specially trained UKEs?! Uuuu! What you said!

As for the second - As Aikido teachers we are really limited as to our ability to deliver a body or head breaking strike simply because the average Sensei does not do any work on heavy bags or makiwara.

DJM: Spot on! Try a test: Next time someone comes in with a punch, just stand there or move into it. Chances are pretty good that it's going to hurt their wrist more than your abdomen.

DJM: Below, Mr. Nowicki agonizes, "If its so innefective when tested against modestly trained opponents why bother training the Aikido martial aspect?" That's the $64,000 question, isn't it. We here from the direct students that self-defense is sine qua non in aikido and yet, after Osensei, who has encouraged cross-training? We get the mixed message about spirituality and the invocation and expression of the universe, too, suggesting utility to be non sequitur; "Aikido is not about fighting." Well, I, for one, am confused. It's a murky question. I share Mr. Nowicki's confusion, appreciate Dan's incisiveness.

Don J. Modesto
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Old 01-16-2003, 01:21 PM   #48
Young-In Park
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Quote:
Paul Nowicki (Talon) wrote:
Why even bother training Aikido (as a martial art)? Are we all really fooling ourselves about this art? I understand that Aikido is more than a martial art with its philosophy, spiritual element etc. If thats all it is then why even bother with the martial aspect?

If its so innefective when tested against modestly trained opponents why bother training the Aikido martial aspect?
<sigh!> Another variation of the often maligned "Does Aikido Work?" thread...

If someone wanted to learn how to shoot a gun, they would go to a gun range. Typically after classroom instruction, they would practice shooting their gun. But since shooting at stationary paper targets that don't shoot back doesn't even come close to approximating a lethal force encounter, why would anyone bother going to a gun range?

Although police officers and soliders have been killed in gun fights, there seems, at least to my own limited knowledge, to be no blanket indictment questioning the effectiveness of firearms.

If a police officer shoots and/or is shot, there's an investigation. And instead of people arguing whether or not guns work, one would hope that firearms instructors analyze actions that could be addressed during training.

Then it begs the question, if say for example, an Aikidoka gets beat up or loses a fight, why people wonder whether or not Aikido "works." In my opinion, it seems people are too eager to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

People practice Aikido for all different reasons. But if someone's reason is for self defense, then you'd better imagine someone who's bigger, stronger, faster and smarter than you if your Aikido is going to "work."

And another thing: why do people continually insist on having the "Aikidoka vs Boxer" debate? Some people have asked how you do Aikido techniques on a boxer because they punch faster and stronger. Aside from the fact that Boxing is a sport and Aikido is a martial art, why would anyone in their right mind try deal with someone's strengths? Realistically, wouldn't you want to exploit their weaknesses instead? But then again, maybe its just me...

YoungIn Park
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Old 01-16-2003, 01:33 PM   #49
Erik
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Re: Re: Unfortuantely true.

Quote:
Don J. Modesto (Don_Modesto) wrote:
Who are the dirty dozen and

what did Seagal say about Norris?
There are a couple of sides to this one but one perspective is that Bob Wall left no chance unturned at gaining a bit of publicity.

http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives...irtydozen.html

Nods in agreement on some of the stuff written recently in this thread.

Young-In Park, I didn't read this latter turn so much as aikido works or doesn't work but rather one of lets be honest about a few things. It's rather refreshing actually.
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Old 01-16-2003, 01:47 PM   #50
Don_Modesto
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Re: Re: Re: Unfortuantely true.

Quote:
Erik Haselhofer (Erik) wrote:
http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives...irtydozen.html

DJM: Thanks for this.

Nods in agreement on some of the stuff written recently in this thread.

Young-In Park, I didn't read this latter turn so much as aikido works or doesn't work but rather one of lets be honest about a few things. It's rather refreshing actually.

DJM: My feelings exactly. Well put.

Don J. Modesto
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