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Old 02-08-2006, 09:35 AM   #26
nathansnow
 
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Re: hip throws

If you want to make your koshinages more effective and more powerful, look to Judo, that's what they do best!! Buy a video or book and not only pay attention to how they are throwing, but also how they are are taking the throw!

Practice makes perfect!
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Old 02-08-2006, 09:40 AM   #27
nathansnow
 
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Re: hip throws

Quote:
Jeremy Ross wrote:
I suggest all martial artists to learn some Judo breakfalls. In the first month I was in Judo, I fell on some slippery concrete steps. My limited Judo knowledge probably saved my life. Go work with some friendly Judo people. They should gladly help you with any fall.
I second the notion... I've taken a couple of falls on the concrete due to bball and ice!! It's nice when you can jump right back up with a smile on your face and laugh it off. There was also a guy at my dojo that took an terrible spill outside of a grocery store. He hit a patch of ice and his feet went straight up in the air! (I still chuckle when thinking about this) He took a perfect hardfall, got up and made sure that the manager put some salt down for all the other people that don't know how to fall.

Nate
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Old 02-08-2006, 11:05 AM   #28
white rose
Dojo: White Rose Aikikai
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Re: hip throws

Hate them, never liked them. AARRRR!

Dont hit me again Nick I'll wash your smalls
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Old 02-09-2006, 08:08 AM   #29
Nick Simpson
Dojo: White Rose Aikido - Durham University
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Re: hip throws

Love them. Cant do them too well, But I love them

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 02-15-2006, 02:54 PM   #30
nathansnow
 
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Re: hip throws

Practice make perfect Nick. Take it slow and hold on at first. Once you get the feel of it, you can start to go harder. There's nothing better than having someone whip you to the ground on a fast, hard kotegeishi or koshinage and hoping right back up smiling!!

Nathan Snow
Michigan
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Old 02-15-2006, 03:43 PM   #31
Michael Neal
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Re: hip throws

I noticed when I was doing Aikido that koshinage was taught more like a Uki Goshi in Judo, where there was a twisting action of the hip, not a deep hip movement and also involved limited turning movement of the shoulders and head. Uki Goshi like koshinage is a quick springing action.

Ogoshi in Judo is a very deep hip action combined with a very big turn to the opposite side during the throw with the head and shoulders. It is somewaht different than Uki Goshi.

Tsuri Komi Goshi as someone mentioned here earlier is basically O Goshi but using a lapel grip instead of reaching around the waist, Koshi Garumu is the same O Goshi while reaching around the head instead of the waist. etc.

Last edited by Michael Neal : 02-15-2006 at 03:45 PM.
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Old 02-15-2006, 06:04 PM   #32
Johan Nielsen
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Re: hip throws

Koshi nage is really just variations of Ude waza, arm techniques. You just put the hip in between in order to execute a effective defence. It is not to be mistaken for regular hip throws found in judo or ju jutsu. Therefore it is not a diffrerence, in aikido, between what you would call Uki goshi or a O goshi in judo. It is just koshinage.
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Old 02-16-2006, 03:35 AM   #33
xuzen
 
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Re: hip throws

I HATE HIP THROW. Why? Because I suck at it. In fact my whole dojo suck at it. It is not part of our official syllabus, therefore we are not forced to learn it and its corresponding ukemi.

The only time I ever see it or experience it is during jiyu waza, and that is just so rarely. The ukemi for Koshi waza in aikido, or rather my Koshi nage ukemi is rather pathetic, and my tori knows it, and will adjust accordingly to "let me off easy". All this while I don't have to worry about Koshi nage....

Until now....

In Judo, my first official technique taught is O'Goshi. There is no letting go easy here. Them Judo people are just... plain pain in the arse, they take the whole train with full resistant thingy literally. Oh boy, woe is me. I hate that ukemi. I froze with fear when both my feet are lifted off the mat before my whole weight come crashing down onto the mat.

I hate that ukemi. I think I should do more of it. Sigh.

Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 02-16-2006, 08:32 AM   #34
Michael Neal
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Re: hip throws

Quote:
Johan Martensson wrote:
Koshi nage is really just variations of Ude waza, arm techniques. You just put the hip in between in order to execute a effective defence. It is not to be mistaken for regular hip throws found in judo or ju jutsu. Therefore it is not a diffrerence, in aikido, between what you would call Uki goshi or a O goshi in judo. It is just koshinage.
No, its not an arm technique at all it is called koshinage for a reason, the hip is the primary part of the throw. The arms are just used to guide the throw.

I understand that all hip throws in Aikido are called koshinage but the koshinage that I seen most used in Aikido resembles uki goshi more than ogoshi. That is what we were discussing, what throw in Judo most resembles the most common koshinage in Aikido.

I don't understand what you are trying to say with "It is not to be mistaken for regular hip throws found in judo or ju jutsu." It is the same throw, there is nothing more magical or special about the Aikido version.
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Old 02-16-2006, 10:27 AM   #35
nathansnow
 
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Re: hip throws

Well Xu, you won't suck at it for much longer training with those judo people! hahaha
Keep training with them you'll be pretty darn good at it. You'll begin to laugh when both your feet come off the ground!

Nathan Snow
Michigan
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Old 02-16-2006, 10:53 AM   #36
Ron Tisdale
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Re: hip throws

Hi Michael,

The version I have seen most often in the yoshinkan is similar to what Ellis noted in this thread or another...The hips or the leg is placed 'in the way' of uke's movement, the power comes from turning the hips from vertical to horizontal, and uke is NOT loaded on the hips, but rather, led over them. It is often combined with other waza, such as kotegaeshi, ude osae, ikkajo, or (shudder) shihonage.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 02-16-2006, 11:03 AM   #37
Michael Neal
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Re: hip throws

Ron, yes that is what I noticed as well it seems more like Judo's UkiGoshi (floating hip) to me than OGoshi (major hip). Of course adding those other techniques to it make it something different but as far as the hip action goes it seems the same.
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Old 02-16-2006, 11:06 AM   #38
Michael Neal
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Re: hip throws

compare these two animations and notice the differences
http://judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/ogoshi.htm
http://judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/ukigoshi.htm
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Old 02-16-2006, 11:13 AM   #39
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Re: hip throws

yep, but even more of an extreme than uki goshi (thanks for the gifs, that helps my non-existant judo terminology a lot). When one of our 4th dans does this, the top / throwing hand is stretched up vertically at the moment of the lead, his legs are stretched out horizontally, and he kind of forms a cross. His lead is so powerfull, you are already in the air / on your toes connected to the top hand. Then he turns his hips horozontal and drops his hand at the same time. Being as he is 6'4'' at least...it is a LONG way down. OUCH. Frankly, I'd almost prefer he'd try to load me on his hips. At least then, being shorter, I'd have a good counter.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 02-16-2006, 03:00 PM   #40
Michael Neal
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Re: hip throws

that sounds more like tsuri komi goshi without the deep hip action

http://judoinfo.com/images/animation...ikomigoshi.htm

maybe a cross between Tsuri Komi Goshi and Uki Goshi
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Old 02-20-2006, 06:41 PM   #41
SMART2o
Location: Alberta
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Re: hip throws

I was taught to grab nage's gi as he loads you onto his hips and take a normal breakfall. If you don't have a good hold on the gi, you fall awkward and could possibly land on your head.

One way we practice this is to have someone get down on all 4's on the floor. You put your lead arm over his back and grab onto his gi from underneath with that hand. Push yourself over his body and break your fall like you normally would when you are thrown. (Probably sounds strange, but it's hard to put it into words)
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