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Old 01-07-2003, 06:20 PM   #1
Paula Lydon
Dojo: Aikido Shugenkai
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Unhappy hip throws

Hi everyone!
~~At my dojo we seem to go through bouts of working on koshi and O goshi naga but I've never really seen anyone give clear, safe instruction on how to take a fall from these techniques. I came to Aikido from an art with many throws and have no problem with it, but wince watching other students do all sorts of risky contortions and falls.
~~As instructors, how do you present ukemi for these full throws? As students, how were you instructed to take these falls? I have taught such ukemi in my previous school but hold no position in my current dojo and would like to find a way to get this material presented. Or is it usually a wing-it as you learn in Aikido?
~~Thanks!

~~Paula~~
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Old 01-07-2003, 10:42 PM   #2
Edward
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This is an excellent question, Paula.

I have rarely seen any aikido instructors or students who do not have a problem with koshinage.

I think the biggest problem (and the most dangerous) is that students are seldom taught how to control uke's fall by holding and pulling-up his arm. The result is usually that uke is left hanging in the air on his own, trying to contort his body to try to land on his side instead of plainly on his back.

I think many aikido instructors (and students) would greatly benefit from a crash course in Judo before they even attempt any form of koshinage.
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Old 01-07-2003, 11:33 PM   #3
pointy
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i was taught very clearly how to do koshinage ukemi by a senior student in my dojo. however, i've never seen it taught as part of a class.

it's kind of ironic as the ukemi is not even particularly difficult, it's just that most dont get the 5 minute lowdown on how to do it.
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Old 01-08-2003, 01:22 AM   #4
Creature_of_the_id
 
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My Sensei often gets us to practice koshi nage breakfalls.

We practice by basicly throwing ourselves. Our partner bends over, we lie ourselves on his or her back and then allow ourselves to slide over their hips, one hand griping the underside of their gi (or hooking around their nearest arm) and the other sliding across their back so it knows when to slap.

Sometimes we will get the big blue crash mat out if there are any lower grades in the class.

I think the main points in falling from koshi safely (that differ from normal ukemi, the basics of ukemi should still be applied), are that nage should be aware and realise that by holding onto the correct arm they can raise one side of your body off the floor so you are always landing on your side and not on your back. But, uke should always be aware that nage may not know this and know that they can grabhold of the partners gi as they fall, which can have the same effect.

With practice none of that is necissary, but a great way to learn safely.

oh... whats O goshi naga?

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Old 01-08-2003, 02:15 AM   #5
Edward
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I think it's Ogoshi. A Judo hip throw with Nage's arm around Uke's waist.
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Old 01-08-2003, 04:41 AM   #6
Creature_of_the_id
 
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ah ok.. thanks

We dont distinguish between the two in our association. So it just gets called Koshi nage aswell.

Thanks for clearing it up for me.

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Old 01-08-2003, 08:50 AM   #7
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My common mistake with koshi-nage is that I used to pull the uke's arm or body and only used the hip as leverage.

It's called koshi-nage for a reason. One is supposed to lift with the hip. I had to re-learn everything, and that's a good thing.

When I have to die by the sword, I will do so with honor.
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Old 01-08-2003, 08:59 AM   #8
akiy
 
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I've done some exercises for folks during some classes to help people with the ukemi for koshinage that involves one person on "all fours" and the other person draping then "threading" their bodies over then under their partner. It's mostly an exercise in tucking back into nage's body.

As far as where the hand goes, it depends on the koshinage. Sometimes, you can grab onto nage's arm if they offer it. Other times, you're just going to have to mess up their dogi by grabbing their lapel or even their belt. And, heck, other times, you're just going to have to fall without the use of the hands, especially in certain koshinage where nage holds onto both hands (eg jujinage koshinage) so uke is both unable to grab nor unable to slap. Nasty, those.

As for "lifting with the hips," I'll say that the best koshinage that I've felt pretty much had no "lifting" whatsoever. Rather, nage manipulated my balance in such a way that their hip went underneath my center without having to lift. It's kind of like the best footsweeps I've felt (from an 8th dan judo practitioner) -- just literally a tap on my ankle and, because he'd manipulated my balance exquisitely well, there was no way I could do anything to save my face from getting planted without taking a breakfall...

-- Jun

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Old 01-08-2003, 09:55 AM   #9
Emre DIKICI
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There are some really nice video tapes out there that explains in details about the ukemi for koshinage as well as the technique itself. You can check out videos section of this web site to find out about that video.
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Old 01-08-2003, 10:26 AM   #10
Bud
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my 2 cents..

There are several types of koshinage and they differ by how uke's arm are positioned as the technique comes into play. Some variations have uke's arm positioned in such as way that uke can still grab hold of nage's lapel before he goes over nage's hip, helping him get into position for the throw. Uke' grabs are far uder nage's torso as possible so he sets up for the throw. This gi-grabbing technique also helps make aikiotoshi a little safer.

The other variation does not allow uke the opening and so uke can't grab hold of anything to ease the fall. This variation is tougher to practice but a lot of breakfalls doing other waza help "wire" that flipping movement that is the core of the breakfall. Uke has to instinctively flip for the breakfall before trying it out on this kind of koshi nage.

For both types, as nage I "sight" up the arm before I "drape" uke over my hip. I look up along my raised arm to make sure that it's straight. This also forces the side of my hip closest to uke to drop down just as uke comes in contact with it. As I drop my raised arm, I "seesaw" uke over my hip.

Hope that helps..
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Old 01-10-2003, 01:16 PM   #11
Doug Mathieu
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Hi Paula

I was a Judo student in my younger days before I began Aikido.

At one Aikido Dojo we did the same excersise that Kev Price and Jun describes. That one seems to really work well.

O'Goshi was also mentioned which is a major hip throw in Judo. The Dojo I'm at now uses that for breakfall practice.

Your partner throws you with the hip throw very carefully and slowly so you get the feel of going over and landing. It has the advantage of the thrower being able to hold the throwee all the time. In O'Goshi nage has one arm wrapped around ukes back and holding uke close to them or grabbing their belt in the belt in the back. The other arm/hand is holding the sleeve of ukes arm and pulling it towards themselves to pull uke into them and unbalance uke.

You can pretty well force uke to fall correctly, hold them up and cushion their fall at the end.

We don't practice this regularly but it is a good training practice.

I also think prior to the actual fall from a throw practice that a class can do some fall positioning work. In Judo we would do excersises where you already were lying on the mat and practice the final position of being on your side with legs in the right position, arm properly slapping. We would roll left to right slapping the mat each time.

Mention was made of Judo by Jun. I had an experience not long ago where someone was knocked out by a Koshinage. I believe the person landed partly on their neck.

A comment or two was made that nage threw uke to low to the ground and that they should have lifted uke up with their hips to help give them clearance. In Judo we were trained to tuck our head under very quickly as nage would be trying very hard to throw you hard, fast and low to get the affect Jun mentioned where you don't so much lift uke as have him almost float off around your back. It feels very light but can be a pretty hard fall for uke.

I think in the training for Koshinage falls some thought might be given on emphasising this point of how your head gets under nage and tucks towards your own chest.
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Old 01-10-2003, 06:51 PM   #12
JW
 
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I guess I represent the opposite end of the spectrum, compared to the dojos described by Paula. I actually started in a university group (lots of beginners, and lots of large groups of people at the same kyu/level), and the dojo that this group evolved into maintained a high proportion of beginners.

So, for a looong time, every time koshis were practiced, we didn't throw. Nage just loads, and uke just "gets ready" for the fall--ie we are shown what ukemi should be like, as you are laying across the hip. Shown how to not be limp, shown where you will be reaching for this throw (be it under the arm, lapel, etc), shown how to pay attention to being ABOUT to fall.

So then everybody's comfort level goes way up over time, and since nobody is ever pressured by the instructor to finish the throw, people just start throwing when both partners are ready.

So over the course of a few months and 3 or 4 or so practice sessions, I was getting thrown.

A certain amount of the ukemi I think can be learned safely in a "load only no throw" environment. To get yourself so prepared actually makes going over soooooo easy.
--JW
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Old 01-10-2003, 09:01 PM   #13
Kevin Wilbanks
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I think it's a shame that so many seem so wimpy about koshinage. As a result, few people with less than 10 years experience seem to have their koshinage technique developed to anywhere near the level of most of their other techniques.

In my own experience and working with others - which is by no means vast, but also not insignificant - I have found that almost anyone can take koshinage falls safely, provided they have a good nage. I think distinguishing it from other techniques, making it seem like a big deal, and letting people "just load up" for anything beyond a very minimal time, is a mistake. The fear itself is the problem, and nurturing or enabling it is precisely the wrong thing to do. Anyone with moderate experience and decent fitness can safely O Goshi your grandmother.

It seems to me like the main danger is more in allowing inexperienced nages with insufficient strength and stability in their lower body to participate incautiously. I have seen and experienced a lot of nages collapsing under uke's weight. I say the koshi-aspiring Aikdioka of the world need less exposure to pampering and more exposure to the squat rack.
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Old 01-11-2003, 09:03 AM   #14
Paula Lydon
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~~I must agree with Kevin W. here as I, too, see a good part of the problem relating back to nage. We need to educate both partners better, throwing and taking the fall. Also seeing hip throws routinely sprinkled into every class like any other technique, not jammed on every so often to where people are frightened, exhausted or injured by doing something 'so different' (or simply sitting out). If it's in the system of training then use it; if it's a passing interest don't waste everyone's time and energy~~

~~Paula~~
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Old 01-11-2003, 11:17 AM   #15
jimvance
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Confused Thoughts from the dark side....

I don't like to answer "how-to" posts, as this kind of stuff should be left up to the instructors and teachers, but maybe I can just give some food for thought. This is how I have been taught, and can vouch for its effectiveness.

Sute ukemi (breakfalls) and zenpo kaiten (forward rolling) are taught as the same physiological process, the only difference being the connection point. In sute ukemi it is fixed, causing uke to rotate around it; in zenpo kaiten it is translatory, causing uke to move with it. This being the case, we practice all of our "breakfalls" (sute ukemi) by doing forward rolls first. Most anyone can practice both forms of ukemi during "kokyu nage", which are normally just softer variations of what would be called "te waza" (hand techniques) in Kodokan Judo. So in answer to the original question about learning to fall correctly for "scary" throws, koshi or otherwise, do a lot of forward rolling until you are comfortable with the movement pattern, then have the tori "tighten up" the focus (I don't mean to say get stronger or meaner). You will be doing sute ukemi (breakfalls) with ease, especially once your body adjusts to the tension-relaxation pattern of falling.

The different posts in this thread raised a somewhat rhetorical question for me though. If we regard kokyu nage as some form of hand technique, that is, the connection and decisive action is conducted through the hands, why do we change the rules for koshi waza? All this talk of lifting and lower body strength, special drills on where to put your arms, etc. Most anyone can deadlift more than they can benchpress, why is it easier to throw someone with the hands, as in most "kokyu nage", than it is in koshinage?

I think the answer lies in nage's perception of power within any technique. Like Jun said earlier about footsweeps, manipulation of posture and balance until the uke is touched at a "focal fulcrum" like the feet, knees, hips, shoulders or head results in the best throws. Koshi waza are not hip throws because we use the legs and hips to pick up the uke and throw them down; koshi waza are hip throws because the focal point of the throw, the fulcrum if you will, happens around the hips.

In theory, not only could we teach someone's grandma to fall for a good ogoshi, we could also teach Grandma to throw us just as hard as we threw her. At least that was the idea of the individual who made the term "koshi waza" famous.

Jim Vance
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Old 01-11-2003, 11:47 AM   #16
Kevin Wilbanks
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Re: Thoughts from the dark side....

Quote:
Jim Vance (jimvance) wrote:
All this talk of lifting and lower body strength, special drills on where to put your arms, etc. Most anyone can deadlift more than they can benchpress, why is it easier to throw someone with the hands, as in most "kokyu nage", than it is in koshinage?
This is a fallacious argument. There is little relation between a benchpress and kokyunage, whereas the hip, knee, and ankle flexion of a deadlift or squat is very similar to the position assumed during koshinage.

Moreover, at no time during kokyunage, or any "hand" throw, is one required to lift uke's entire bodyweight off the ground. Ideally, it appears that once koshinage is smooth and quick, one need not hold uke up, but only provide a momentary obstacle for uke to 'trip' over, at the waist. However, during learning, the throw cannot safely be done perfectly at high speed, so there are many times when one must hold up uke's weight in a forward-leaning squat position. For those of us on the tall side, this can sometimes be a pretty deep bend of the knees and hips, and an uke can easily weigh upwards of 200 pounds.
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Old 01-11-2003, 08:18 PM   #17
jimvance
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Talking I'm thinking in this box over here....

Quote:
Kevin wrote:
This is a fallacious argument. There is little relation between a benchpress and kokyunage, whereas the hip, knee, and ankle flexion of a deadlift or squat is very similar to the position assumed during koshinage.
If you believe that picking someone up and throwing them to the ground over your hip, your shoulder, or your head by the use of muscular force, then I agree, my argument is definitely fallacious. My argument was not really concerned about the physiological similarity between certain movements in Aikido and resistance training. My point was more about the degree of strength required to execute a technique, using the idea that if we don't need to bench press (or do any sort of "upper body" exercise) to do te waza effectively, why do we need to do squats to be able to do koshi waza? I am not saying that being physically unfit will help the technique at all.
Quote:
Kevin also wrote:
Moreover, at no time during kokyunage, or any "hand" throw, is one required to lift uke's entire bodyweight off the ground.
That is my point, who does actually lift the uke's body weight off the ground? I am taught that it is the uke who does it.
Quote:
Kevin then wrote:
Ideally, it appears that once koshinage is smooth and quick, one need not hold uke up, but only provide a momentary obstacle for uke to 'trip' over, at the waist. However, during learning, the throw cannot safely be done perfectly at high speed, so there are many times when one must hold up uke's weight in a forward-leaning squat position.
Tripping is a nice metaphor, if a bit simplistic. Watching or participating with people who can do this kind of stuff kind of changes one's mind. I absolutely agree about performing at high speed, for those learning the basics, it must be slow. That was why I posted the suggestion about doing forward rolls instead. I think learning to "load" weight in the fitting portion of the technique helps the tori more than the uke though, but not for the fact that you are performing some version of resistance training. It just shows where the right positioning is, the kime of the throw, and so on.
Quote:
Kevin wrote:
For those of us on the tall side, this can sometimes be a pretty deep bend of the knees and hips, and an uke can easily weigh upwards of 200 pounds.
Although not huge, I am 6 foot 2 inches and 185 pounds. I don't have too much trouble throwing people smaller than myself, I just have to make sure I fit to them correctly. As far as being uke, I like to say "I am hard to pick up, but really easy to throw." I am all for being physically fit, as most people would say that I am, and I wholeheartedly support Kevin's ideas about proper joint strength and body alignment. I just don't think that you have to have big muscles to make people fall down. I don't want to worry about lifting the 200 - 300 pound uke, and as long as I do what I am taught, I shouldn't have to.

Jim Vance
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Old 01-11-2003, 09:46 PM   #18
Edward
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Actually I think both Kevin and Jim are right. If you execute a near-perfect koshinage, you will need minimal muscle power in the legs and lower body. Unfortunately, it is not always possible to repeatedly execute such near-perfect technique every time. In a practice session when you throw your partner altogether about 30-40 times, I am sure the percentage of less than perfect throws will increase with physical exhaustion. This is when you will need lower body strength to compensate for poor technique. When I was still doing judo, it was compulsory to do squats with weights after class for every one involved in competition.
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Old 01-12-2003, 04:58 AM   #19
Fiona D
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mechanics of koshinage

Just curious, having encountered koshinage a couple of times so far (only been doing aikido for 4 months...); here's a question for people who have done both aikido and either judo or jiujitsu:

-as far as the mechanics of koshinage are concerned, especially when it comes to uke's flight path, do you think that aikido koshinage is similar to the judo/jiujitsu hip throws, or does it have something of a kata guruma feeling (even though the points of contact on nage's body are somewhat lower)?

The first time someone did a koshinage on me, my first thought was that my fall felt a lot like ukemi from kata guruma.

Interested to know people's thoughts on this!
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Old 01-12-2003, 05:50 AM   #20
Edward
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Re: mechanics of koshinage

Quote:
Fiona Darbyshire (Fiona D) wrote:
Just curious, having encountered koshinage a couple of times so far (only been doing aikido for 4 months...); here's a question for people who have done both aikido and either judo or jiujitsu:

-as far as the mechanics of koshinage are concerned, especially when it comes to uke's flight path, do you think that aikido koshinage is similar to the judo/jiujitsu hip throws, or does it have something of a kata guruma feeling (even though the points of contact on nage's body are somewhat lower)?

The first time someone did a koshinage on me, my first thought was that my fall felt a lot like ukemi from kata guruma.

Interested to know people's thoughts on this!
You are perfectly right, Fiona. It is a Kata Guruma but on the hips instead of on the shoulders. In judo it's called tsuri komi goshi.
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Old 01-12-2003, 09:48 AM   #21
Paula Lydon
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~~Having come from a jujitsu background I still don't understand why, whether we're using a deep or shallow hip technique, everything's called 'koshinage'. Sometimes we're exicuting O goshi, tsurikomi goshi, uki goshi, uchi matta nage, tai otoshi, etc.

~~Hmmmm, maybe this should be it's own thread question...?

~~Paula~~
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Old 01-12-2003, 10:23 AM   #22
Bob
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Having done both aikido and judo it seems to me that the two koshi-nage are quite different, in intent but perhaps not in practise.

In judo one tries to throw the partner so that he or she will land on their side in perfect breakfall position and thereby get a full point and a win. Thus nage supplies the necessary rotation. In aikido, one tries to throw the partner so that he or she will land on their face/shoulder and thereby ensure that there will not be a second attack. Thus uke supplies the rotation to land in the proper breakfall position. Of course in practise nage helps uke land safely (so one also has the option to allow an attacker to land more safely than head/shoulder impact) but one should not forget that the tecnique allows for a range of damage.

Bob
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Old 01-12-2003, 10:55 AM   #23
jimvance
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Quote:
Paula wrote:
~~Having come from a jujitsu background I still don't understand why, whether we're using a deep or shallow hip technique, everything's called 'koshinage'. Sometimes we're exicuting O goshi, tsurikomi goshi, uki goshi, uchi matta nage, tai otoshi, etc.
Maybe it is proprietary. I use a Dell, some people use IBMs, others use Macintoshes. They are all machines we call computers. I think the same thing kind of applies to naming techniques; some people just like a little bit more description, or others don't want to associate what they do in Aikido with what others do in Judo.

Jim Vance
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Old 08-25-2004, 10:39 AM   #24
jsuaikido
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Re: hip throws

[quote=Moline Bob]
In judo one tries to throw the partner so that he or she will land on their side in perfect breakfall position and thereby get a full point and a win. Thus nage supplies the necessary rotation. In aikido, one tries to throw the partner so that he or she will land on their face/shoulder and thereby ensure that there will not be a second attack.

There will be no second attack after a good Judo toss as well. We can aim the noggin' as well as an attacker's back to concrete/floor/wall. I'm probably a little over-sensitive to this, but good Judo is a budo first...a sport second.
I suggest all martial artists to learn some Judo breakfalls. In the first month I was in Judo, I fell on some slippery concrete steps. My limited Judo knowledge probably saved my life. Go work with some friendly Judo people. They should gladly help you with any fall.
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Old 08-25-2004, 04:51 PM   #25
Devon Natario
 
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Re: hip throws

Paula:
It seems that every art has it's own way. I have to agree with the statement that all hip throws are considered Koshinage in Aikido, which they are not. Each variation has another name. Since Aikido has taken techniques from Daito Ryu, we should all do some research on Daito Ryu (if you havent already) and get a clear understanding of the names of different throws.

I was taught a shoulder throw (Ippon Seoi Nage) and I made my own variations, later to find out those variations had names and were used by many Judo practitioners. Had I not researched that, I would think they were all Ippon Seoi Nage. The same exact thing goes for the hip throw. Ogoshi Nage is the "hard hip throw". Koshinage is a different throw than Ogoshi Nage. They are all clearly different throws, instructors have just failed to research, or didnt care to research the arts past and where they got the techniques from. Of course, maybe that's why there is Aikido, maybe they call all 15 variations of the hip throw Koshinage and call it a new art. hehehe Just kidding..

Moline:
I also agree with Jemery where as Judo was first Budo, and second a sport. One can train for the Olympics or competition and still have a clear understanding of how to destroy an opponent. I have competed in submission grappling and trained for it, but I clearly understand the combat applications and techniques that can be applied in ground fighting. Let's not forget that these are "Martial" Arts, not recreational sports.

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