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Old 12-29-2002, 06:32 PM   #1
Nado
Dojo: Aikido de la Montagne, Montreal
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Ki Symbol Ki does not exist ! (Neither do I !)

But it's the only thing there is !

I've been reading here for a while and I just felt like adding my part to these reflections on Ki.

I believe there is no point trying to figure out the nature of Ki, trying to prove its existence scientificaly, or trying to understand its substance, simply because Ki does not exist ! Actually, our very body doesn't exist either, the blade of my opponent does not exist and my opponent is made of emptyness as well !

"Except for blending with the void,
There is no way to understand
The Way of Aiki."
- Morihei Ueshiba

The only thing there is in this world is my attention and the picture it is focusing on, or in other words, the object of my awareness. The rest is only a mental picture that we commonly keep as an agreement. The mind creates the world. Or as osensei stated :

"A mind of discord, thinking of the existence of an enemy is no more consistent with the will of the kami."
"He who has gained the secret of Aikido has the universe in himself and can say, "I am the universe."
"I am one with the universe and I am nothing else."

Of course this perception of thing may seem too esoteric or not practical for daily life, but since it remains the basics of things, I simply wish to safe a lot of pointless research and thinking on the topic. It's a little bit like these quantum physicists trying to observe an atom and realizing there is scientificaly nothing to observe !

I am me.
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Old 12-29-2002, 07:10 PM   #2
Thalib
 
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It's basically like saying between absolute truth and relative truth. I have yet to find the absolute truth, but I live with relative truth every single day.

The human knowledge of the physical and relative world is still so miniscule compared to the universe. It can't even be compared as a drop of water in the vast ocean that is the universe. It is arrogant to say that humans know everything that there is to know. It is arrogant for humans to say that the system of science that was created and developed by humans is enough to explain everything that there is in the universe.

Humans have yet to find even the tip of the iceberg.

When I have to die by the sword, I will do so with honor.
--------
http://funkybuddha.multiply.com/
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Old 12-30-2002, 07:46 AM   #3
opherdonchin
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Not to be making light of your serious comments, friends, but I can't help thinking of these lines from the Matrix, and when I think of them, I can't help smiling:
Quote:
Spoon boy: Do not try and bend the spoon. That's impossible. Instead... only try to realize the truth.
Neo: What truth?
Spoon boy: There is no spoon.
Neo: There is no spoon?
Spoon boy: Then you'll see, that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself.

Yours in Aiki
Opher
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Old 12-30-2002, 08:05 AM   #4
Thalib
 
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I do like those lines... it's spiritual... in a techno sense.

And you know what, sub-consciously, that maybe what made me think about absolute and relative truth.

When I have to die by the sword, I will do so with honor.
--------
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Old 12-30-2002, 08:33 AM   #5
Bruce Baker
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What is the void?

Fact is ... none of us exists with a few choice keys, and a quick flash or the "delete" key.

What is the void?

Is it that place in our mind that contains the fears, the anger, the unknown factors that distract us from seeing clearly, understanding who we are or why we are here, what we can or can not do in our human form we must live in while we think our little thoughts, live our little lives that are oh so short?

Or is it like the comment I heard that Americans don't understand how oh can be totally different that oh-oh, or oh-oh-oh?

Embrace the void, eh?

Internal note to teach you about yourself, or is it a manifest form or exterior phenonmenon?

No Ki? I do not Exist?

Reminds me of my old Sicilian grandmother? Smack up side the head and '"what's sa matta with you!"

Back to reality with a little physical stimulation.

Maybe Ki, or others don't exist, but that is just because we aren't there to smack you up side the head.

Doesn't mean it could exist somewhere else.

Maybe it is time to turn off the computer and go outside to see if you can fill that void with some input.

Input, input, input!

Not everything you picture in your mind exists, but if you can picture it then it must have some basis in the real world ... what is the reality verses the idea?

In finding the reality, then you will find if it exists in the real world.

Me?

I am just dots on a computer screen. I am not real .... yet.

I comma you house and smacka you head to wake-a you up ... botch-a-ga-loup!
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Old 12-30-2002, 10:16 AM   #6
SeiserL
 
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IMHO, Ki is no-thing in particular. Ki just is.

If you say Ki exist, you will be hit. If you say Ki does not exist, you will be hit. Who is the "I" that experiences the Ki as existing or non-existing?

Sometimes, the only way to find the answer is to drop the question and accept what is.

Train. When you expereinece it you know. When you don't, no words can explain or verify it.

Until again,

Lynn

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 12-30-2002, 11:01 AM   #7
Tadhg Bird
 
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Ki Symbol I believe!

Personaly, I believe in the reality of Ki. But then again, I beleive in magic, Big Foot, UFOs and Santa Claus.

Though my belief in some of these things are not related to any direct experience, I have experienced Ki.

I don't want Ki to be explained by reductionist science, for I think its an emergent property of a whole system that unites body, heart, mind, and who knows what else.

Its not something to explained, categorized, or conjectured about, it is something to be experienced.

"Words and letters can never adequately describe Aikido -- its meaning is revealed only to those who are enlightened through hard training." -- Ueshiba Morihei O Sensei
--

http://www.AikidoStuff.com
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Old 12-30-2002, 11:12 AM   #8
erikmenzel
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Re: I believe!

Quote:
Tadhg Bird wrote:
I believe in Santa Claus.
Me too, but then again in exchange of toys and candy I am willing to believe almost anything

Erik Jurrien Menzel
kokoro o makuru taisanmen ni hirake
Personal:www.kuipers-menzel.com
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Old 12-30-2002, 08:47 PM   #9
Nado
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Thank you all for the feedback !

I mainly agree with Lynn Seiser, or again with the Famous (in Japan) Zen monk Takuan Soho : "The mind must not stop at anything, if it stops, it falls."

If you point your attention to a particular idea, you become blind for all the others. So Ki is, it is the projection of my intention, my will, through the picture of my body. Ki isn't, there's no way of catching it and putting it in a bottle to observe it like a snail (or atoms !).

Neither of these answers are right or wrong.

And for those who think some pain would teach me reality, well, I had the chance to oberve and old Hindu monk to get a dental surgery, without any anaesthetic !

And just to apply that to the average of people, I'm sure any of you has experienced going out in the winter without proper clothing and not feeling cold, and in the other hand waking up in the morning and feeling frozen, even though the temperature is still high. All is in the position of your attention.

Or once again, not feeling the pain when the mind is occupied at something else, and suffering like hell for a simple cut that keeps all our attention. It's all in "where" is the attention, and it can go as far as not feeling pain at all, but rather observing it (I've done it).

Conclusion : yes, there is no point trying to confine Ki in a "reductionnist" science, but rather one must accept the idea and use it.

There is nothing, all is here.

(sounds dramatic enough ?!!)

I am me.
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Old 01-07-2003, 06:34 PM   #10
Bruce Baker
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Truth in simplicity

The fact that ki does not exist, and neither do you ... well ... that statement has more truth in it than humor.

Every living thing creates some type of energy in its fullfillment of being alive. Call it ki, or call it life, or call it what you will, when life ends, the energy of that life ends and the bits and pieces that make up that life are redistributed, recycled as it were.

The basis description of life, and that of death are to the very heart of "ki does not exist and neither do I." Maybe my view is practical rather than the spiritual aspect of this forum, but doesn't the physical action of life fall within more physical parameters of measurement, while ki is our brain fog which has not cleared enough for us to apply the term in a more scientific manner?

No Ki, eh?

There is only one way you can not have any ki ... you be dead.

Dead is the only condition where life has stopped.

Or is it like the "Princess Bride" where Miracle Max says Wesley is "mostly dead" not all dead?

Degrees of measurement, variations of thespiritual, getting caught up in deep scholarly discussions are fun, but only when you are mostly alive, with some ki? Not mostly dead.
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Old 01-11-2003, 06:53 PM   #11
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Yes, but when you die....do you really die?

Remember, energy is neither created or destroyed....it is transferred!

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Old 01-15-2003, 12:45 AM   #12
AikiRooster
 
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Question Kevin Leavitt?

Hello Kevin.

Do you have a brother or cousin or family member named Jason with same last name?

If so, is he a copper? Also, if so, have him write to me, either here or email or Private message me. I used to work with em.

Some folks are truly alive only because it's against the law to kill them. . .
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Old 05-18-2003, 10:01 AM   #13
Jeff R.
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The cool thing is that most everybody is correct . . . but not necessarily for the correct reasons. Go figure.

Ki is real, but it does not exist.

Computers exist, but they are not real.

The only truth is Universal, and simple. Nature is real. It is the indisputable manifestation of whatever "Higher Power" created us. It is our foundation. We cannot exist without it, and we are both spiritually and physically borne of it.

Plastic exists, but it was created by a human idea, a tampering or alteration of elements from their natural state. Things that come from the human mind are dreamworks, existing, but having no necessary place in Nature. They provide no benefit, but more often offer some destructive impact to Nature.

Logic and Spirit work together for us when we exercise our inherent role as Caretakers of the Earth, but when one outweighs the other, there can be severe discord.

It's interesting because Ki exists until we try to find it.

If you've ever done any dowsing, or are familiar with the "gut feeling" or intuition, then you may understand how those feelings--Ki impressions--can be clouded with logic, which comes in the form of second-guessing ourselves. (I knew I should have stuck with my original answer on that test . . .!)

Exercise and extend your Ki with conviction; feel its awesome power--just smile.
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Old 05-18-2003, 03:23 PM   #14
otto
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Welcome to the real World , Neo .

"Perfection is a Process"
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Old 05-18-2003, 04:10 PM   #15
Jeff R.
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Quote:
Ottoniel Ojeda (otto) wrote:
Welcome to the real World , Neo .
Glad to be aboard, Sir.

Exercise and extend your Ki with conviction; feel its awesome power--just smile.
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Old 05-19-2003, 03:55 AM   #16
ian
 
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P.S. for all you Matrix freaks - did you realise that the first film is based (loosely!) on the old testament, and this next one is based on the new testemant.

(re; Neo, Zion etc)

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
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Old 05-19-2003, 06:15 AM   #17
Bussho
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Quote:
Jeff Rychwa (Jeff R.) wrote:
The only truth is Universal, and simple.
Sorry to break your bubble, but is not a truth, but an assumption.
Quote:
Nature is real. It is the indisputable manifestation of whatever "Higher Power" created us.
Sorry also an assumption. You indicate that since we are, something had to create us. No, that's a bleife you can have, but not an indisputable manifest.
Quote:
Plastic exists, but it was created by a human idea, a tampering or alteration of elements from their natural state.
So what your stating is that the things men think about are unnatural? Everthing we do and make are natural. Just because we cann't find it in nature doesn't mean it's unnatural. To put it in another way, everthing is built up of the same atoms and monlycles (sp?), arn't they natrual then?
Quote:
Things that come from the human mind are dreamworks, existing, but having no necessary place in Nature. They provide no benefit, but more often offer some destructive impact to Nature.
Natur itself is selfdestructive. One big vulcanic burst can 'clean' out the whole world. Or are you saying the we humans make to manythings that are not good for the blance of things, but how can we logically be are part, and come from, make anything that would work against nature?

Nature itsn't a perfect balance, but a moving system, that pulsates moving through time. Things will change by itself. If you mean that we try and keep THAT stable, it can't happen. It has it's own will, we're just a part of it, good or bad.
Quote:
Logic and Spirit work together for us when we exercise our inherent role as Caretakers of the Earth, but when one outweighs the other, there can be severe discord.
How can we be caretakers? You state "Things that come from the human mind are dreamworks". We will never be able to be a caretaker...
Quote:
If you've ever done any dowsing, or are familiar with the "gut feeling" or intuition, then you may understand how those feelings--Ki impressions--can be clouded with logic, which comes in the form of second-guessing ourselves. (I knew I should have stuck with my original answer on that test . . .!)
Yeah and logic can be clouded by "gut feeling". Just look at all the people that fall in love, and leave each other after a couple of years. Goes both ways. But I don't think that it's Ki. Aleast not what I think key is. For me ki is just the thing that keeps you up and running. You can make it "flow" naturally or stop it. Not so much as an all connected power from some superbeing that hovers over our heads (meta-speaking).

This doesn't mean you wrong and I'm right, just using your part of thread to state my meaning.

/Bussho
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Old 05-19-2003, 06:56 AM   #18
Jeff R.
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Quote:
Terje Theiss (Bussho) wrote:
Sorry to break your bubble, but is not a truth, but an assumption.
Whether you want to call the existence of the Universe a truth or an assumption is up to you, but it's been around, either way, a lot longer than we have. It's about the only truth we can depend on, or need to worry about.
Quote:
Sorry also an assumption. You indicate that since we are, something had to create us. No, that's a bleife you can have, but not an indisputable manifest.
Are you actually saying that we aren't created? If so, then there probably isn't enough room in this forum for the discussion we need to undertake for clarification. Otherwise, it's pretty cut and dry as far as we need to be concerned. We come from Nature. Protect Nature. Proven and indisputable.
Quote:
So what your stating is that the things men think about are unnatural?
Yes; often. If Nature didn't make it, it ain't natural.
[quote] Everthing we do and make are natural.[quote]Sorry; it doesn't quite work that way.
Quote:
Just because we cann't find it in nature doesn't mean it's unnatural.
(Do you really understand that you are printing this for others to read?)

OF COURSE IT DOES!
Quote:
To put it in another way, everthing is built up of the same atoms and monlycles (sp?), arn't they natrual then?
Yes, atoms are natural, but Nature has had them in certain orders and combinations for billions and zillions of years for a reason. Then we come along in our infinitesimal, puny existence and start mucking with things.

Splitting atoms, creating things that don't readily absorb back into Nature, creating things that enable the perpetuation of genetically weak species--all unnatural. In fact, just by creating most of the crap we need in society we kill Nature. Are you calling that beneficial? If so, I call that self-centered (societally).
Quote:
Natur itself is selfdestructive. One big vulcanic burst can 'clean' out the whole world.
If Nature is self-destructive, it's really up to Nature, not us. Plus, in Nature's self-destruction there is creation. In our destruction of Nature there is only self gain, no benefit to Nature. Nature is pure yin and yang, no selfish endeavour, no alterior motive. In Nature there is no good or evil, only chaos and logic, death and creation. It has been shown that the human species has done more damage to the earth in 100 years than has been done by anything else in the past 10,000 years.
Quote:
Or are you saying the we humans make to manythings that are not good for the blance of things, but how can we logically be are part, and come from, make anything that would work against nature?
Well, it's pretty obvious and self-explanatory. Just look at plastic. And it's not that we necessarily "create" anything, so much as we alter what shouldn't be altered. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that tampering with Nature is going to ruin us.
Quote:
Nature itsn't a perfect balance, but a moving system, that pulsates moving through time. Things will change by itself. If you mean that we try and keep THAT stable, it can't happen. It has it's own will, we're just a part of it, good or bad.
That's kind of a contradiction. Nature IS always changing and shifting, yes. In and of itself it is perfectly balanced. Nature is eternally existing, our earth having been around for billions of years has been doing fine without us. But look at what we've done to it. And you're really saying that's good? We can't make Nature static of course, but we can help maintain balance in the shifting. It's been done.
Quote:
How can we be caretakers? You state "Things that come from the human mind are dreamworks". We will never be able to be a caretaker...
So the Indians were wrong? The Aborigines of Australia, the Native people of any country--all wrong living in harmony with the earth? All wrong for taking only what they needed to survive, and then taking care of nature to ensure their survival?
Quote:
Yeah and logic can be clouded by "gut feeling". Just look at all the people that fall in love, and leave each other after a couple of years. Goes both ways. But I don't think that it's Ki. Aleast not what I think key is. For me ki is just the thing that keeps you up and running. You can make it "flow" naturally or stop it. Not so much as an all connected power from some superbeing that hovers over our heads (meta-speaking).
Ki is the spiritual energy of the universe. It is very strong, but different from other energies that make things work. It's pretty easy to learn how to work with it, but it seems that many people would rather worry about whether it exists or not.

Anyway, the whole superbeing thing is your statement; I didn't bring up anything about personifying deities.
Quote:
This doesn't mean you wrong and I'm right, just using your part of thread to state my meaning.

/Bussho
Cool. Not a problem. Back at 'ya.

Last edited by Jeff R. : 05-19-2003 at 07:00 AM.

Exercise and extend your Ki with conviction; feel its awesome power--just smile.
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Old 05-19-2003, 07:30 AM   #19
Bussho
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Quote:
Jeff Rychwa (Jeff R.) wrote:
Whether you want to call the existence of the Universe a truth or an assumption is up to you, but it's been around, either way, a lot longer than we have. It's about the only truth we can depend on, or need to worry about.
You said the only truth is Universal, not the univers. I feel thats two different things.

We can discuss the exsistense of the univers, but you stated that there is only a Universal truth, which in my book means that there is only one truth that covers all. And that is an assumption.
Quote:
Are you actually saying that we aren't created? If so, then there probably isn't enough room in this forum for the discussion we need to undertake for clarification.
Yes, that would take up a lot of bandwith. Discussing exsistens is difficult, since people are realtivaly reactional. Which measn that are whole thought about the world is perceived though are senses, and in that sense you can quesiton the exsistance of the whole world. Matrix was quoted before, just the same thing, just on a personal level.
Quote:
Otherwise, it's pretty cut and dry as far as we need to be concerned. We come from Nature. Protect Nature. Proven and indisputable.
I dont agree.
Quote:
Yes; often. If Nature didn't make it, it ain't natural.
OK, you way of defineing things. I do it differntly.
Quote:
(Do you really understand that you are printing this for others to read?)
Yes, and I dont see that as a problem, but it does concern me that it's a problem for you.
Quote:
In fact, just by creating most of the crap we need in society we kill Nature. Are you calling that beneficial? If so, I call that self-centered (societally).
I dont disagree with the fact that things are done that have a bad effect on other things.
Quote:
If Nature is self-destructive, it's really up to Nature, not us. Plus, in Nature's self-destruction there is creation.
Nope, that's an assumption again, that nature destruction is it's way of creation. The earth will die one day, with or with-out our help. It's on it's way. I agree that we dont have to speed up the process, but assuming that nature knows best, is a romatisation of nature.
Quote:
It doesn't take a genius to figure out that tampering with Nature is going to ruin us.
Leaving it alone could ruin us too....
Quote:
That's kind of a contradiction. Nature IS always changing and shifting, yes. In and of itself it is perfectly balanced.
How do we know if it's pefectly balanced, when we don't know what the balance should be?
Quote:
Nature is eternally existing, our earth having been around for billions of years has been doing fine without us. But look at what we've done to it. And you're really saying that's good?
Nope, but romantinizing earth an't going to help us either.
Quote:
We can't make Nature static of course, but we can help maintain balance in the shifting. It's been done.
That sounds interessting, since when is a thing a equalizer or out of balance? When a desert moves into a city isn't that a natural way of life, or waters flood over? Doing farming in itself isn't natural, you've never seen it grow natrual like that in natur. So all farmers are doing something unnatural?
Quote:
So the Indians were wrong? The Aborigines of Australia, the Native people of any country--all wrong living in harmony with the earth? All wrong for taking only what they needed to survive, and then taking care of nature to ensure their survival?
They weren't caretakers. There tried to be a part. A caretaker has a responsability, but the indians and aborigines just "blended", and I think that is two different roles.
Quote:
Ki is the spiritual energy of the universe. It is very strong, but different from other energies that make things work. It's pretty easy to learn how to work with it, but it seems that many people would rather worry about whether it exists or not.
I dont agree on the first statement, but the second I agree on.
Quote:
Anyway, the whole superbeing thing is your statement; I didn't bring up anything about personifying deities.
Yes that is true , I did, but I was thinking meta. Not excat picture, but the way people talk about ki, like it's something over us.

Nice dicussing with you!

/Bussho
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Old 05-19-2003, 08:46 AM   #20
Jeff R.
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Quote:
Terje Theiss (Bussho) wrote:
You said the only truth is Universal, not the univers. I feel thats two different things.

We can discuss the exsistense of the univers, but you stated that there is only a Universal truth, which in my book means that there is only one truth that covers all. And that is an assumption.
Simply put: The Universe exists (for real, or relative to us, or in the freakin' matrix--whatever; it's there) and we are part of it. No matter where or when in the Universe you may be, everything is intertwined and related just because it's part of the Universe. That is the simple truth. If you don't agree, then you will either have to reasonably show me how it's incorrect, or we'll have to leave this particular part alone.
Quote:
Yes, that would take up a lot of bandwith. Discussing exsistens is difficult, since people are realtivaly reactional. Which measn that are whole thought about the world is perceived though are senses, and in that sense you can quesiton the exsistance of the whole world. Matrix was quoted before, just the same thing, just on a personal level.
And where do your senses come from? And how do you know you have them? Relative to what? In fact, animals in Nature have more finely tuned senses than we. Ours are weakened by separating ourselves from Nature. In the Natural scheme, without our technology--IN THE REAL WORLD--we would die if we depended upon our senses. That is unnatural.
Quote:
I dont agree [about the cut-and-dryness of the whole thing . . .].
Again, prove it wrong. I have lived not only in, but WITH the wilderness for years. I know that survival, especially in a group (tribe) means protecting and taking care of the source of your food, shelter, and clothing. That means living in balance with Nature. Taking care of it so it takes care of you. Now, with our technology, we are moving ourselves physically and spiritually away from Nature. Nature suffers, and ultimately, so do we.
Quote:
OK, you way of defineing things. I do it differntly [concerning Nature didn't make it; it ain't natural].
Not my way; just pretty much the way it is. It doesn't get much simpler than if Nature didn't make it; it ain't natural.
Quote:
Yes, and I dont see that as a problem, but it does concern me that it's a problem for you.
I just really have no idea of your background and resources. I get into lots of discussions with armchair philosophers, and I usually find them extremely stubborn, unwilling to see other perspectives, happy in the bliss of technology and being blinded to the ruin of future generations, and just plain absurd in unfounded statements that lead to non-productive endings. It's nothing personal; I have been studying this stuff and teaching it for decades, and though I relish productive, educational conversation, I am not interested in a pseudo-debate with anyone who has only read a book, formulated an opinion based only upon one way of thinking, or only relates life to what modern society doles out in movies and self-help guides.

If you are not one of these people, then I have no concern at all with the trade of info.
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I dont disagree with the fact that things are done that have a bad effect on other things.
A little broad, but I guess it's something. It's just that I can't even say if we're in the same playing field, because I don't even know if we mutually agree that there IS a playing field.
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Nope, that's an assumption again, that nature destruction is it's way of creation. The earth will die one day, with or with-out our help. It's on it's way. I agree that we dont have to speed up the process, but assuming that nature knows best, is a romatisation of nature.
I challenge you to find any natural destruction that doesn't lead to creation. If you look at any Natural disaster, nature is never destroyed; it always recycles as a new ecosystem or makes an alteration for better workings of things. The only destruction is what we've made, i.e., houses, roads, cars etc. Only what we have created--especially that has monetary value--is destroyed. The Universe has no need for money.
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Leaving it alone could ruin us too....
I'm sorry, but that just doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Doing damage is definitely ruining Nature, therefore, ruining us. Not doing damage is a good thing.
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How do we know if it's pefectly balanced, when we don't know what the balance should be?
We know what the balance should be first of all because we pay attention and live with the earth. Secondly, as long as we are striving for the benefit of all living things--Total Prosperity--then the rest is up to the Universe. How can you go wrong by protecting Nature?
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Nope, but romantinizing earth an't going to help us either.
Come on. Romanticizing? Don't cop-out on me; this has the potential to be a decent discussion.
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That sounds interessting, since when is a thing a equalizer or out of balance? When a desert moves into a city isn't that a natural way of life, or waters flood over? Doing farming in itself isn't natural, you've never seen it grow natrual like that in natur. So all farmers are doing something unnatural?
BINGO!
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They weren't caretakers. There tried to be a part. A caretaker has a responsability, but the indians and aborigines just "blended", and I think that is two different roles.
So a caretaker doesn't blend? Then how does a caretaker take care? Remember that these people depended upon the well-being of Nature for their survival. There was no going to the supermarket or turning up the thermostat. If they didn't stay in tune, they died. If they were destructive or careless, they died. Plus, family was esteemed, the spine of tribal existence. The people of one generation weren't so selfish as to think only of their own survival, they tried to ensure the survival of their future generations (seventh is the rule-of-thumb) by helping Nature thrive.
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I dont agree on the first statement, but the second I agree on [regarding Ki . . .].
Okay. I'd be interested to get your take on it, though. I'm trying to keep elaborations short, but there is definitely the potential to cover a ton of area here.
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Yes that is true , I did, but I was thinking meta. Not excat picture, but the way people talk about ki, like it's something over us.
I don't see it as a dominating super power with any personified conscience. I see it to be similar in concept to the water that surrounds and moves through the fish. We're in an ocean of Ki, which extends beyond our perception, and we can tap into it anytime.
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Nice dicussing with you!

/Bussho
Back at 'ya. But we sure do make a boat-load of points to respond to.

Exercise and extend your Ki with conviction; feel its awesome power--just smile.
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Old 05-19-2003, 09:08 AM   #21
happysod
Dojo: Kiburn, London, UK
Location: London
Join Date: Oct 2002
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Jeff, quick question for you from a paid up member of the pop-culture brainwashed masses (who actively supports and feels technology can do good as well as bad), how would you go about deciding who lives and dies?

Now, I'm quite willing to be proved merely ignorent of the truth, never having lived "with the land" or experienced being natures caretaker first-hand - but don't most of the groups you describe not only need a large area of land to survive, but also have an incredibly short life-span as a norm? Doesn't most of the world's current population only survive through advances in technology?

I'm afraid I couldn't bring myself to declare genocide on the human race with a good "back to nature" ethos, glad someone out there has the moral rectitude for it...

Back on topic, disagree with you about Ki (but from previous threads I know you're closer to the norm than I am). I don't believe ki is either external or particularly spiritual, just efficient use of your bodies own resources.
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Old 05-19-2003, 09:37 AM   #22
Jeff R.
Dojo: River Valley
Location: New Hampshire
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 93
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Quote:
Ian Hurst (happysod) wrote:
Jeff, quick question for you from a paid up member of the pop-culture brainwashed masses (who actively supports and feels technology can do good as well as bad), how would you go about deciding who lives and dies?
Yeah; I get this one a lot--especially the, "What if your child was deathly ill? You wouldn't use conventional medicine to save him?"

Why would deciding who lives or dies rest on my head? It's up to Nature, and many elements apply i.e., how distant we are from being able to survive in a pure environment in the first place, how much our senses have degraded, and plain survival of the fittest.

The thing is that people don't usually like the answer, because many are afraid of death. Our society is committed to fighting death instead of embracing it as part of life. We have synthetics, prosthetics, and life-lengthening methods that make us live much longer than may have been intended. It's hard to say what the "normal" life-span should be because some cultures lived only into their early forties, yet others lived into their eighties. Either way, living in harmony with the earth is still the only way to level whether we should live or die. It's obvious we are overpopulated as it is. Imagine how it would be if thousands of people DIDN'T die every day. Our society says something like that is sad, and though it may be, in the great scheme it's just continuity.
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Now, I'm quite willing to be proved merely ignorent of the truth, never having lived "with the land" or experienced being natures caretaker first-hand - but don't most of the groups you describe not only need a large area of land to survive, but also have an incredibly short life-span as a norm? Doesn't most of the world's current population only survive through advances in technology?
Yes, and that's a good point. By depending on technology, we weaken ourselves as a society. We seem to strive for immortality. For example, when the wolves were all but eradicated from north american territories, the moose herds (natural prey of the wolf) began to suffer. Their offspring became weaker, and there was too much competition within the herds. When the wolves were reintroduced, they removed the sick, the old and weak, the genetically deficient, and that left only the strong to breed. The herd became healthy again.

Our technology affords us the opportunity to become lethargic, unaware, and caters to weak genetics.

It's a tough truth.

Then there is the whole spiritual aspect. When we separate from nature, we do so by living IN the technology, surrounding ourselves with false, controlled atmospheres--cars, houses, televisions, etc.--things that "protect" us from the elements and the reality of Nature. When we disconnect from Nature, our spirits also suffer, because the bond between all life is in Nature. It's like being in a boat on a lake. If we don't get wet, we lose some of the most intimate connection with life.
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I'm afraid I couldn't bring myself to declare genocide on the human race with a good "back to nature" ethos, glad someone out there has the moral rectitude for it...
I think this may be an unfortunate jab. Regardless, as I've stated before: I don't make the decision, and I don't expect everyone to give up their computers, televisions, and cell phones today, in order to erect dome-huts tomorrow. But it is vital to teach the children how to do so. It's only fair to them to provide the option. Then maybe they won't end up saying what many of us say, "Our grandparents made the mess, and we have to clean it up."
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Back on topic, disagree with you about Ki (but from previous threads I know you're closer to the norm than I am). I don't believe ki is either external or particularly spiritual, just efficient use of your bodies own resources.
Okay. But at least we agree that there IS Ki!

Exercise and extend your Ki with conviction; feel its awesome power--just smile.
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Old 05-19-2003, 10:11 AM   #23
happysod
Dojo: Kiburn, London, UK
Location: London
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Jeff, ok, so I was jabbing, ya caught me... I think the major problem I have with your stance is that, to me, developing tools and techniques is as natural for us as lil ol wolf eating mr bunny. Train your kid in survival skills? Great idea for a hobby, train the same kid in how to develop technology that will work with nature/improve life, much better use of time (of course, being as I am one of nature's survival failures I may be biased )

As for Ki, I'll agree the term exists in that there's room for debate on the nature of a phenomena that is oft referred to, sometimes (erroneously?) experienced that has been identified in aikido by the name "ki".
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Old 05-19-2003, 03:16 PM   #24
Jeff R.
Dojo: River Valley
Location: New Hampshire
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 93
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Quote:
Ian Hurst (happysod) wrote:
Jeff, ok, so I was jabbing, ya caught me... I think the major problem I have with your stance is that, to me, developing tools and techniques is as natural for us as lil ol wolf eating mr bunny. Train your kid in survival skills? Great idea for a hobby, train the same kid in how to develop technology that will work with nature/improve life, much better use of time (of course, being as I am one of nature's survival failures I may be biased )
Okay. I don't think we're going anywhere. This is one of those instances where I am going to have no impact in trying to convince you of something that only time has the ability to do.

I mean, I am really sorry, I am not being crass when I say that that statement sounds simplistic and way understudied.

In fact, it phenomenally blows my mind that when someone says, "Nature good, protect Nature; protect species," that there are others who actually say, "nuh uh."

There is no such thing as technology that supports Nature. There never will be. I mean really think about it. Even bicycles. People say, "ride bicycles because they don't pollute nature." That's wonderful, but consider what it takes to make a bicycle. Acres of land stripped. Infrastructure built for factory. Pavement installed for employee parking. Electricity, fuel, smoke stacks . . . blah blah and etc.

Tools, yes. Bone, stick, stone--what more do you need than that? And who is anyone to decide that the grandchildren shouldn't have the option? It's everyone's birthright to live in Nature. It's our own death if we choose not to.
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As for Ki, I'll agree the term exists in that there's room for debate on the nature of a phenomena that is oft referred to, sometimes (erroneously?) experienced that has been identified in aikido by the name "ki".
Okay. I'll go with that, although I have to admit that I don't quite understand everything following the comma. Sorry.

Exercise and extend your Ki with conviction; feel its awesome power--just smile.
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Old 05-19-2003, 04:27 PM   #25
Bussho
Dojo: Aarhus Shobukan
Location: Denmark
Join Date: Jul 2000
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Hi

Just wanted to say that I'll be off line the next week or so. My wife just went into labor. We have to wait until mornign before we'll go to the hospitle.

I dont want us to stop this discussion, just dont want you to think I "ran away".

But I'll tell you so much that I've been educated into both western medicine and easter, not as a doctor but a foot specilist and Shiatsu massage. So I do know a bit about ki. But I havn't studied philosophy in university. But i've readmore than one book.

But I'll try and get back to you later...

/Bussho
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