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Old 06-14-2003, 02:00 PM   #151
Erik
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Craig, your request for testing is brilliant. It makes something as mundane as the unbendable arm seem, well, important. It gives it a legitimacy it couldn't get any other way. And, you siezed the high ground because we skeptics always want proof from the believers. Then the way you subtlely worked hypnotism into the discussion. Just enough that ki is a little bit esoteric but at the same time making sure that you come off as a rationalist on the topic of ki. And, best of all, you slammed science while you were at it.

Absolutely brilliant salesmanship and spin.

By the way, since all ideas are equal I presume you'll be testing for radiation emmissions from the planet Krapton and fairic magic, right?

Honestly, and I really do mean this, I'm impressed.
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Old 06-14-2003, 03:56 PM   #152
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Oh sure, Erik,

I am a master spinmeister salesman

just waiting to hypnotize you with my Krapton raygun into believing all ideas are equal.



if you think there was a slam on science, then you understand even less about how scientist operate on a daily basis than I thought.

You think unbendable arm is mundane. That's fine. Plenty of mundane things are studied by scientists. What's important is a judgment call on your part. Somebody else could feel differently. What's important hinges first on whether a well-defined, answerable question can be posed, not on how mundane a phenomena is. What's important hinges second on whether you can convince someone with money that it is worth answering the question. Numerous mundane things have been to discovered to contain unsuspected phenomena when some change in thinking has occurred. The chaotic dynamics of a dripping faucet is one example.

It's not about making unbendable arm seem important, it's about the fact that you said that science already had an explanation for what was happening and then gave a reference to page with one anecdote and a hand waving explanation.

If you are going to champion science, then at least use scientific standards. I have heard some alternate plausible explanations, but I haven't seen any good data for any of them.

If someone has a hundred grand to spare that they want to spend on investigating unbendable arm, I'll be happy to write and submit a grant proposal.

However, I will be sure to avoid the word "ki" or anything like it the proposal text just in case someone like Erik is on the review committee.

meanwhile, I will just go on teaching the exercise and let students draw their own conclusions.

Craig
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Old 06-14-2003, 06:39 PM   #153
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This virtual conversation is very interesting. From reading the messages you people have been sending in reply to my views, I have gladly noticed that none of you believe in any kind of paranormal ki.

If so, does that mean that in your a´kido practice, talk about spiritual energy, ki (what every it means), visualisation of water flowing out of your arm when you practice the unbendable arm, centering your self... are but usefull metaphores (hightening concentration, alertness, minimizing effort...) aimed at enhancing ones proficiency at a´kido?

Someone mentioned that the term paranormal was problematic and explained how vision remained unexplained scientificaly therefore pointing out that paranormality could also apply to established phenomena, I agree with this argument. But paranormality applies both to established events(vision) and non established events(ki). For sake of coherence, from now on I will talk of ki (telekinesis and so on) as ostensibly paranormal as opposed to an established paranormal phenomenon.

paranormal: adj "of ((or pertaining to the claimed occurrence of)) an event or perception without scientific explanation, as psychokinesis, extrasensory perception,or other ((purportedly)) supernatural phenomena."

I will quote my self: "My instructor said himself that believing in ki was not necessary to practice a¤kido but rather that one had to "be present", "be there" refering to our attention, alertness and concentration: "I am!"... still I can not explain many of the surprising feets we were supposed to be performing without the concept of the paranormal (ki).

If ostensible paranormality can be excluded from the unbendable arm and all other feets in a´kido as many of you have stated there is one feet my teacher once perfomed before me and that I cannot explain (as I stated earlier) scientificly (obviously excluding trickery wether willfuly done or not).

I will describe it: the teacher is standing straight, both his arms falling straight down on either side of him, his hands macking a fist. Two students are standing straight next to my teacher (one is on my teacher's left and the other at his right).The student at his right grabs on to his right hand and the one at his left grabs on to his left hand. When my teacher is ready he asks the two students to try to lift him. The student at the teacher's right grabing on to the teachers right hand (with his two hands) trys to lift the teacher by trying to pull straight up the teachers hand (as if the student was lifting a very heavy bowling ball). The student at my teacher's left does exactly the same with the teachers left hand. Both try to pull him up at the same time. The students succede in lifting the teacher and replace him to the ground. Again the teacher asks the two students to lift him and again they succede and place him back to the ground. The teacher asks the two students to lift him for a third time. But this time the two students are incapable of lifting him. It is clear on their faces that they are putting all their strength to lift my teacher but they can not. The students struggle for about 10-15 seconds then the teacher asks them to stop.

I has this feet on video casset... he was filming a video for the purpose of informing others about a´kido.

I hope you can enlighten me on how my teacher could have performed this feet without using any ostensibly paranormal ability and without deceiving us students... that is, by his explaining that he did it using ki (in the metaphoric sens [ ki is a metaphor to help us be more proficient in an a´kido free of the ostensibly paranormal ki that I think you and I agree hasn't been scientificaly established yet ]

Ok... writing this I just realised that if my teacher didn't realy do an ostensibly paranormal feet, then he is not deceiving us students at all but simply trying to help us, since he never said that ki was paranormal (I never heard him say it anyeays), so I must conclude that he was refering to a metaphoric ki!!!...

Ok... I guess I just answered my own question!!

I have put intentions in my teacher which were never realy established by him... he always told us that it didn't matter wether ki existed or not, what was important was to feel "I am!!" (will) I now understand the error in my logic...

... so what do you think... is ki a metaphor?
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Old 06-14-2003, 08:07 PM   #154
Erik
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Jean-David, I'll offer a very quick reply to this.

The one variable you aren't catching is what he may be doing with his hands or other parts of his body. What extremely subtle shifts is he making that aren't obvious. For instance, a tense body is easier to lift than a relaxed body. A subtle shift of angle in his arms would also make a difference.

A much better way to test this would be to have the instructor sit on a board and have people lift him using the board. Theoretically, he would be harder to lift if there were anything 'special' involved. They never do that one though.

By not mentioning those things, and he may even do them subconsciously, he is, in a way, guilty of deception even if it's only to himself.
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Old 06-14-2003, 08:13 PM   #155
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........still I fail to see how the feet my teacher performed helps us (students) in any way enhance our proficiency at a´kido... if he didn't perform an ostensibly paranormal feet than how did the metaphoric ki (means of hightening concentration, alertness or will) make him stay on the ground? I suspect it is a suptle movement of his body like shifting his wait from one side to the other or something of that sort, but than how is that usefull... learning magic tricks or how to deceive people who want to lift you?? I fail to see how the knowlege acuired from this kind of exercice could be used in other a´kido situations... if metaphoric ki made him stay on the ground than, than metaphoric ki is just a trick. Futhermore this kind of demonstration from my teacher (wether he believes in an ostensibly paranormal ki or not, or wether to him it is important in a´kido) made me think that he was talking about an ostensibly paranormal ki (wether he was or he wasn't) and probably every one in the dojo also, therefore wether my teacher realized it or not, he was giving the impression of talking about a truly ostencibly paranormal ki in his explanation of the feet so that if in fact his feet was not ostensibly paranormal than I take back what I said earlier about puting intentions in my teacher... he put intentions in me...

Thinking of his demonstration in terms of metaphoric ki is too ridiculous... that is why one can only suspect he was talking about something paranormal. If my teacher was talking about metaphoric ki and did not realize we were not, than I'm glad I left the dojo... If he was talking about paranormal ki while explaining his feet than I am gladder that I left the dojo since as we have come to agree ( you people that are reading this) that ki unworthy of belief just like one can not legitimaty say he knows that ki exists or does not (or cannot) exist at this time ( not enough proof ). I have given the reasons for this in earlier posts.

While I can still see possible benefits of practicing the unbendible arm and other exercises alike, this particular exercise that I have talked about puzzles me greatly! Can you enlighten me?

Thanks
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Old 06-14-2003, 08:25 PM   #156
Erik
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Here's an article on the subject.

http://216.239.33.100/search?q=cache...hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Actually, I'm not sure that will work. If it lists a google result, go down to 'aikido: physics in action?'. The pdf wouldn't come up when I tried it so if it fails use the 'view as html' option.



Last edited by Erik : 06-14-2003 at 08:29 PM.
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Old 06-14-2003, 08:28 PM   #157
Jean-David
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Is this kind of deception or self deception common among a´kido teachers? Do you think I was right to leave that dojo? What does this say about other exercises like the unbendable arm? Where is the limit between deception and the practical benefits of these exercises?
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Old 06-14-2003, 08:32 PM   #158
Erik
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Jean-David, it was a long swing but you hit the nail with the hammer on this one.

Futhermore this kind of demonstration from my teacher (wether he believes in an ostensibly paranormal ki or not, or wether to him it is important in a´kido) made me think that he was talking about an ostensibly paranormal ki (wether he was or he wasn't) and probably every one in the dojo also, therefore wether my teacher realized it or not, he was giving the impression of talking about a truly ostencibly paranormal ki in his explanation of the feet so that if in fact his feet was not ostensibly paranormal than I take back what I said earlier about puting intentions in my teacher... he put intentions in me...

This is the part where Craig goes into denial.
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Old 06-14-2003, 11:48 PM   #159
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Question what is paranormal abt vision?

Um,

Off topic, but what part about vision is unexplained? Cones pick up mostly color (more macular), rods pick up light contrast (more in periphery), various parts of the brain have been connected through neural tracing and such to the eyes, those parts interpret shape, movement, hue, and object identification, then impart it to the areas of the brain connected to consciousness. What makes it paranormal?


Last edited by ikkainogakusei : 06-14-2003 at 11:51 PM.

"To educate a man in mind, and not in morals, is to educate a menace to society." ~Theodore Roosevelt
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Old 06-15-2003, 02:27 AM   #160
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Quote:
Jean-David Robert (Jean-David;-)) wrote:
Ok... writing this I just realised that if my teacher didn't realy do an ostensibly paranormal feet, then he is not deceiving us students at all but simply trying to help us, since he never said that ki was paranormal (I never heard him say it anyeays), so I must conclude that he was refering to a metaphoric ki!!!...

Ok... I guess I just answered my own question!!

I have put intentions in my teacher which were never realy established by him... he always told us that it didn't matter wether ki existed or not, what was important was to feel "I am!!" (will) I now understand the error in my logic...

... so what do you think... is ki a metaphor?
Bingo! :-D

You got the answer.

As to your description of the unraisable body exercise where two guys attempted to lift your instructor. I can't speak for your instructor, but if you saw me demonstrate this and then voiced your concerns we could have had a discussion about efficiency. If I tense my body, the lifters will be able to put more into the vertical component of the force they are applying to my arms and I will shoot straight up. If you are not just trying to be a stiff board, then it often gets expressed in the your shoulders shrugging up next to your ears. Part of doing the exercise successfully is having the same feeling as unbendable arm in both arms with good feeling of extension through the little fingers so that the lifters cannot apply force efficiently into the vertical component. You should notice that the instructors shoulders are not raised when the lifters are unsuccessful (if they are it is time to suspect that some delusion or collusion is going on). No matter how strong they are, they won't lift you if they can't succeed in applying force upwards through your center of mass. However, if you don't move the force ends up putting a great deal of stress on the lifters posture. You can learn how to use this to break their balance and drop them to the floor. You can make it even more impressive by first letting them lift you up and then un-shrug you shoulders putting yourself in the proper position to reduce the efficiency of their lifting force to below that needed to keep your weight up there and at the same time put tremendous pressure on their posture causing them to collapse.

There is nothing paranormal here at all, just good use of the four ki principles -

1. focusing my mind calmly at my center of mass

2. releasing unnecessary (counterproductive) tension

3. cultivate a feeling of a boat floating on water with lots of ballast

4. be with a positive open mind (ki/mind is extending)

the key ;-) is efficiency, but it takes a little training

you can stand on scale be correct and your weight won't change



a fork lift operator won't find any difference in lifting you and a sack of potatoes that weighs the same as you.

*****

A valid question is then

Why would I want to learn to do this ?

in aikido there are attacks where two or more people grab you, learning the skills above so that they become an natural response is critical to dealing with uncooperative attackers.

hope that helps your understanding,

Craig
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Old 06-15-2003, 02:41 AM   #161
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Quote:
Erik Haselhofer (Erik) wrote:
Jean-David, it was a long swing but you hit the nail with the hammer on this one.

Futhermore this kind of demonstration from my teacher (wether he believes in an ostensibly paranormal ki or not, or wether to him it is important in a´kido) made me think that he was talking about an ostensibly paranormal ki (wether he was or he wasn't) and probably every one in the dojo also, therefore wether my teacher realized it or not, he was giving the impression of talking about a truly ostencibly paranormal ki in his explanation of the feet so that if in fact his feet was not ostensibly paranormal than I take back what I said earlier about puting intentions in my teacher... he put intentions in me...

This is the part where Craig goes into denial.
Now I am impressed, nice turn to try to put me in the position of trying to defend the practice at some school I don't know and only going on the impressions of a someone practiced there for about two months during which he had no serious discussion as far as I can tell with the teacher or the senior students.



You are being a little desperate to prove your point.

Craig
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Old 06-15-2003, 02:59 AM   #162
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Ki Symbol Re: what is paranormal abt vision?

Quote:
Jane Tao (ikkainogakusei) wrote:
Um,

Off topic, but what part about vision is unexplained?

This is one long url to an accessible description of the problem

http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPa...n0603-550.html

In case the url doesn't work,

yes we have a good idea of anatomy, and the biophysics of light detection and optics

that doesn't explain how we construct perception of the 3-d world with the inherent ambiguities of a 2-d retina.

The paranomal definition being repeated isn't a very useful one in my opinion.

Craig
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Old 06-15-2003, 06:04 AM   #163
Col.Clink
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Quote:
Erik Haselhofer (Erik) wrote:
A much better way to test this would be to have the instructor sit on a board and have people lift him using the board. Theoretically, he would be harder to lift if there were anything 'special' involved. They never do that one though.
Your correct Eric, we don't do that one, rather difficult carrying round a board big enough actually, but I promise I'll try in the not too distant future.

I have seen it done on a chair, and done it myself. No, I did not shift my angle/weight, it is just a matter of shifting the mind ( make your own conclusion, and yes I have a lot more to practice on it to become proficient).

The idea is not to see if the uke's CAN lift (although that is the way it is done), but to feel the difference in nage, and nage to feel a difference in themselves while making sure uke is still lifting honestly.Is there a more relaxed state? did nage change something without uke noticing? Is it just body mechanics? Is it using Ki? Did uke lift honestly or feel awkward or pressured?
Quote:
The one variable you aren't catching is what he may be doing with his hands or other parts of his body. What extremely subtle shifts is he making that aren't obvious. For instance, a tense body is easier to lift than a relaxed body. A subtle shift of angle in his arms would also make a difference.
ummm.... 0.075 degrees left arm, 1.278 degrees right arm, drop centre 4.5 degrees. Point fingers to ground in an arc of 0.025 degrees and smile widely!! Or, if you don't have a protractor or level, you could extend Ki!!

Call it whatever you find works best Eric. I've heard loads of people discredit Ki Society, and heard loads discredit Aikido, and they are either informed, mis-informed or just miss the point altogether, or just maybe none of it was for them, but I always hear aikidoka saying "give it a go" ,or, " make your own judgement". Whoever said "empty your cup" must have been wrong I guess, I think he/she meant to say "coffee, white with one", damn waitress!!



But honestly, if no scientist has done a true and accurate experiment over a few years using many different people and scientifical contraptions, why bother trying to explain it scientifically. I think the heading should now read, Ki in theoretical thought, as science ain't doing diddley squat on this subject.

Anyway, I'm tired and my pumpkin is about to explode. Wonder if they ever got their coffee?

Have a good day/night.

Cheers

Rob

"Excess leads to the path of Wisdom"
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Old 06-15-2003, 11:02 AM   #164
Erik
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Quote:
Craig Hocker (kironin) wrote:
Now I am impressed, nice turn to try to put me in the position of trying to defend the practice at some school I don't know and only going on the impressions of a someone practiced there for about two months during which he had no serious discussion as far as I can tell with the teacher or the senior students.

You are being a little desperate to prove your point.
Not at all, it just takes a lot of pounding to get through a thick Houston skull.

His description was accurate. I've never seen anyone teach this stuff with a rational explanation provided. It's always about extending ki out the arm or shooting water out a firehose. A quick google didn't yield any ki society sites with any either. Of course, if the only explanation you have for lightning is a thunder god then I guess you go with a thunder god. You also probably shouldn't get too bent out of shape when someone comes up with a fire god, rock god, tree god, or whatever god.

Oh, and it's not his job to seek out the senior students or sensei. They should be up front and clear about what it is, and what it isn't, when they present it.
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Old 06-15-2003, 11:07 AM   #165
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My stepfather was a physics professor with an interesting problem; he had an irrational belief in the current state of scientific discovery. He got angry whenever we discussed the possibility of faster-than-light travel, because it was in violation of Einstein's theories. It is said that Einstein was plagued with the same problem; unable to accept the randomness implicit in quantum theory, he spent much of his old age trying to refute it. Scientific thinking involves understanding that the best understanding we have now may be superceded by discoveries later on.

Science may someday explain ki, or explain it away, but right now it is unexplained. Not disproven. Unproven. To remove yourself from an otherwise enjoyable experience because they seem to be doing something "paranormal" is not to be rationally scientific, but to irrationally reject a thing that cannot - yet - be explained by science.

Therefore, Jean-David, I would suggest that you practice aikido for what it brings to you, and do not worry too much about the scientific explanation for the instructor's feats. You may have more fun at an Aikikai dojo than a Ki Society dojo, if you have one in the area. Just my thoughts, for what they're worth...
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Old 06-15-2003, 11:10 AM   #166
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Off topic again

Quote:
Craig Hocker (kironin) wrote:
This is one long url to an accessible description of the problem

http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPa...n0603-550.html

In case the url doesn't work,
So yes I don't have the spare cash to subscribe to Nature, tho I'd like to. Passwords make knowledge less accessable.
Quote:
yes we have a good idea of anatomy, and the biophysics of light detection and optics that doesn't explain how we construct perception of the 3-d world with the inherent ambiguities of a 2-d retina.
So I can understand that information from one optic nerve would limit depth, but we have two eyes with overlapping fields of view to assist in perception of depth. There are several areas of the brain which have their own responsibility for a different aspect of perception, including object identification. So is the assertion of this nature article specific to the neuro-physiological aspects of constructing perception? Mind-you, I'm not insinuating that you or the article are wrong, I'm quite interested.


"To educate a man in mind, and not in morals, is to educate a menace to society." ~Theodore Roosevelt
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Old 06-15-2003, 12:51 PM   #167
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Ki Symbol Re: Off topic again

Quote:
Jane Tao (ikkainogakusei) wrote:
So yes I don't have the spare cash to subscribe to Nature, tho I'd like to. Passwords make knowledge less accessable.

Damn, I was hoping it was in the public section but I guess my home browser is remembering passwords.

See if you can find this book at a local store. It is

Why We See What We Do: An Empirical Theory of Vision

by Dale Purves & Beau Lotto

Sinauer Associates, Sunderland, Massachusetts, 2003

paperback, pp 260

ISBN 0878937528

----------------------------

I haven't seen it but the recent June issue of Nature Neuroscience had a review that summarized things nicely including pointing that even though the book above presents the problem very well the past-experience theory they argue is the explanation is out of fashion because of studeis with newborn infants and other work that has demolished other past-experience theories previously proposed.
Quote:
Nature Neuroscence Review wrote:
To the surprise of most people, vision has not yet been explained scientifically. There is no agreement on how we see the size of an object (at various distances), its color, and whether it is moving or not, simply by looking at it. How does the rich, three-dimensional world of visual experience arise from the ambiguous, seemingly impoverished two-dimensional image projected onto the retina? Imagine that a retinal image contains a trapezoidal region of a given intensity. Its shape could come from a rectangle lying down or a trapezoid standing up. Its intensity could come from a white surface in dim light or a black surface in bright light. How does the visual system compute an answer (that is, generate a percept)?

Purves and Lotto must be applauded for defining this "pervasive ambiguity of retinal stimuli" as the central problem. In the finest tradition of giving science away, they bring this problem to life using a series of computer-generated illustrations that delight the eye and edify the mind. The coverage is reasonable, with chapters on lightness, color, three-dimensional space and motion. Sensory physiology is thoroughly addressed, which is not surprising given the status of the senior author as a leading neuroscientist. More surprising is the authors' bold critique of sensory physiology. Dismissing current research trends (such as channels) as fads, they argue that neuroscience has failed to address the ambiguity problem. They assign a vital role to phenomenology and suggest that rapid progress in neuroscience requires an understanding of the "overarching strategy of vision."

large snip...

The non-specialist will appreciate the wonderful illustrations that fill this book and the clear introduction to the fundamental challenge of vision. But in explaining how vision succeeds, Purves and Lotto ignore crucial pieces of evidence. And they add little to the debate that is new.
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Old 06-15-2003, 01:43 PM   #168
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Quote:
Erik Haselhofer (Erik) wrote:
His description was accurate. I've never seen anyone teach this stuff with a rational explanation provided. It's always about extending ki out the arm or shooting water out a firehose.
I see, you want everyone to teach only in a way that satisfies your criteria or his for rational description. Use of a gestalt approach where one might use visualizations like shooting water out a firehose or traveling a laser beam to infinitely or imagining a pole extending through spine in both directions inifinitely etc.

These are forbidden because we must all think only rational thoughts. Anything that even smacks of irrationality must mean you and your students are deluded, gibbering idiots. No exercise can be done without first preceded by a 30 minute discussion of biophysics, anatomy, and psychology to make absolutely sure that no student harbors any view contrary to the local skeptics club.



{QUOTE] Oh, and it's not his job to seek out the senior students or sensei. They should be up front and clear about what it is, and what it isn't, when they present it.[/quote]
Well, as far as I can tell from what Jean wrote, he admits his teacher did exactly that. I find it interesting that your expectations are that a student should be spoon fed everything. That you think it is not a students job to seek answers to their own individual questions.

Craig
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Old 06-15-2003, 11:28 PM   #169
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"To remove yourself from an otherwise enjoyable experience because they seem to be doing something "paranormal" is not to be rationally scientific, but to irrationally reject a thing that cannot - yet - be explained by science.

Therefore, Jean-David, I would suggest that you practice aikido for what it brings to you, and do not worry too much about the scientific explanation for the instructor's feats. You may have more fun at an Aikikai dojo than a Ki Society dojo, if you have one in the area. Just my thoughts, for what they're worth..."

The problem is that a´kido isn't only meant to be enjoyable like dancing. A´kido is a way of living and staying alive! So if I'm an a´kidoka and someone attacks me on the street with a baseball bat, it "will matter" whether ki is suposed to be an ostensibly paranormal power or simply a helpfull metaphor... or will it?... if ki is just a helpfull metaphor than good, if its realy paranormal... I mean look at the black belts! They are so good, no one could hurt them! The simple fact that high graded a´kidokas defend themselves so well shows that it doesn't matter what kind of ki they are using,since it works. Then where is the problem?... I'll tell you what the problem is : it implies that one should not bother knowing why things happen and how they happen. Because something is, it doesn't matter why and how!!! If this computer works does it matter how it works? If I'm alive does it matter how and why I am alive? be it I am powered by a tiny batery in my right foot or in my right testicle. Science is based on the exact opposit assumption!! If we had never asked ourselves how our bodies worked we would never have developped medecin to cure it!!

I never said ostensibly paranormal ki didn't exist... what I said was that it has not been proven and it contradicts many fundamental aspects of physics. Suppose you believe in that kind of ki, it might not change your a´kido but it certainly will change the way you see the world... if you think the truth is worth something, than your taking a risky bet.

I have never scientificaly tested the hypothesis that visualising ki ( water, energy, light, etc) or atempting to experience it (centering, moving it, extending it, etc.)... (assuming that ki is just a helpfull sensation and nothing more) enhanced one's proficiency at a´kido. I have never tested the opposit view that simply throughtly examining and teaching the mecanics of a´kido movements was sufficient, meaning that adding intellectual and psychosomatic metaphors does not realy make a difference, in fact it may even confuse the student in making him think of these metaphors as more than what they realy are (especialy when these metaphors produce seemingly impossible feets and realizing that [or hoping that] by simply examining the mecanics of the moving body [move here, do that with your legg at this angle at this time] one will be able to reproduce these seemingly impossible feets without being mystified... I have never tested both views but I believe the best way to teach a´kido is in between: first explain the mecanics ( the physics ) of the movements and then teach the metaphors. The instructor must clearly state that the metaphors are there for the sole purpose of getting the body movements right, and not the opposit! ( The body movements are not there to get the ki moving! )
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Old 06-16-2003, 10:01 AM   #170
Jean-David
Join Date: Mar 2003
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But honestly, if no scientist has done a true and accurate experiment over a few years using many different people and scientifical contraptions, why bother trying to explain it scientifically. I think the heading should now read, Ki in theoretical thought, as science ain't doing diddley squat on this subject.

Answer : it's not up to scientists to prove ki... it's up to you to prove it to them !!
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Old 06-16-2003, 12:52 PM   #171
Jean-David
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If you believe that the truth is worth something in and on itself, than to believe in an ostensibly paranormal ki is to take a risky bet. what do you have to loose? The truth. How risky is it? As risky as believing in Santa clause. It's a comforting belief and no kid ever got hert or died believing in Santa clause. Yet I don't know any adults who still believe in Santa Clause... Why? Simply because they never found any evidence that he existed... plus how is he suposed know what every kid in the world wants for christmass and than give it to them all in one night whithout breaking one law of physics. Than why do some people still believe in an ostensibly paranormal ki? because they found evidence... I think not. It's time they grow up.

That being said... why refuse an otherwise enjoyable activity like a´kido just because it "seems" to do "paranormal" feets? If the feets aren't realy paranormal ( as I believe ) and the instructer tells his students they are paranormal, then nobody should go to that dojo. On the other hand, if the teacher doesn't say whether a´kido feets are paranormal or not, it is up to every student not to believe in an ostensibly paranormal ki, to not get fooled by a´kido's surprising feets. In both cases the student remains responsible of his own learning. It's his fault if he believes in ki. A´kido is not a sect. The student is free to beleive what he wants, leave the dojo when he wants. In a sect, the disciples are brainwashed so that they are made to think one way. It is only in sects that one can say the teaching method is bad, wrong and the teacher guilty. In a´kido, the teacher might be unsceptical, but it's not the teachers fault if the student believes what the teacher teaches him, it's the student's fault.
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Old 06-16-2003, 01:21 PM   #172
Alfonso
Join Date: Aug 2002
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Jean David; I think you can find Aikido instructors who satisfy your needs. Just keep looking a bit more.

personally , to me Ki is a metaphor, and was never explained differently. I don't have an issue with it.

This is in any case, a Japanese martial art, not a martial science..

some of the issues you raise are part of the cultural baggage that comes with Aikido.

If you stick around you'll see you're not alone in your desire for a more "modern" type of schooling.Until then I still agree with your instructor that you don't have to "belive in Ki" to do Aikido.

how about "belief" itself in scientific thought? can you measure that?

Alfonso Adriasola
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Old 06-17-2003, 12:19 AM   #173
Col.Clink
Dojo: Waiuku Ki Society
Location: New Zealand
Join Date: Dec 2002
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Quote:
Jean-David Robert (Jean-David;-)) wrote:
But honestly, if no scientist has done a true and accurate experiment over a few years using many different people and scientifical contraptions, why bother trying to explain it scientifically. I think the heading should now read, Ki in theoretical thought, as science ain't doing diddley squat on this subject.

Answer : it's not up to scientists to prove ki... it's up to you to prove it to them !!
If science wants an explanation, I'm afraid it is up to them to set the wheels in motion, because I don't mind if they ( or anyone else that does not beleive etc)don't believe, I have nothing to prove, but I'm not against helping science out if I can, and, I don't have the money for that kind of in depth study to conduct myself.


Quote:
Jean-David Robert (Jean-David;-)) wrote:
Than why do some people still believe in an ostensibly paranormal ki? because they found evidence... I think not. It's time they grow up.
Let's see, perhaps the same reasons people beleive in faith or fate, soul mates, God, or whatever other belief systems are out there. They are all beliefs until science can explain them, but they are also on an individual level, nobody forces anybody to beleive in something they do not wish to. Same is said for Ki, no-one was forcing you to belive in Ki, you chose to believe it as ostensibly paranormal. I'm not going to critisize your discription of your experience, but I do object to your critisisims of telling folk to grow up because someone belives different to you!

ostensibly : to all outward apperances.

paranormal : cannot be explained by science.



But since Ki has not tried to be explained by science, it cannot be "paranormal". Perhaps it should be ostensible phenomena. (check .C.)

phenomena : 2 plural phenomena a : an object or aspect known through the senses rather than by thought or intuition b : a temporal or spatiotemporal object of sensory experience as distinguished from a noumenon c : a fact or event of scientific interest susceptible of scientific description and explanation.

If someone believes in something that has a positive impact on their life, and they have made that choice on their own, who has the right to tell them it is all just bullshit and they should quit or are deranged, just because they themselves have not had a good experince of it, or they cannot explain it by science, or their teacher says it is bullshit? make your own judgements and leave others to make theirs.

I'm sorry if you feel you've been cheated or decieved, but I or anyone eles cannot give a scientific explanation because it has not been tested upon, it's all theoretical.

I don't quite understand alot of things, including Ki, but I'm giving it a go and enjoying the experience, and when I feel it's a load of BS, then I'll try another school, and another and another. Just because you could not get something positive out of your experience, does not mean no one else can. Go to another dojo and put it behind you, but above all enjoy it. I hope you find the aikido your looking for.

Cheers

Rob


"Excess leads to the path of Wisdom"
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Old 06-17-2003, 03:55 AM   #174
mike lee
Location: Taipei, Taiwan
Join Date: Jun 2002
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lost in space

The concept of ki is very "rational." That is, perhaps, why Amerikans have such a difficult time grasping it. Then, when they become aiki-do "instructors," they hide behind a sense of contrived "rationality" and go into complete denial about the entire subject of ki.

Where does the fault for such ignorance lie?
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Old 06-17-2003, 06:20 AM   #175
happysod
Dojo: Kiburn, London, UK
Location: London
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Mike, I think you're going a bit far here and heading down a well-worn "you're not xxx so you just don't understand", sorry, speak slowly and I'll give it a go...

I personally think many of the problems regarding Ki are in the language itself. As has been said in many threads on Ki, in Japan it's just a normal word, nothing special. However, when we try to substitute the English equivalents the trouble starts. Language and culture are inextricably linked and so it's the attempt to explain the concept which is accepted in one culture to one where it's not generally used which blurs things. It's a bit like trying to describe maths using hand waving, you may be able to get the gist, but still not understand.

As a Ki-blind westerner of cynical disposition, I normally leave Ki alone, but from my understanding the question of "do you believe in Ki" is a bit like asking "do you believe in a table?". If I can't see the table, why should I believe in it? But my belief doesn't affect the presence of the table for others, so for now I'll continue to eat off my lap and leave the posh dining area to the Ki-adepts.

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