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Old 02-28-2003, 11:49 AM   #76
Erik
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Quote:
"Jane Tao (ikkainogakusei) wrote:

The only study I know of was done by an elementary school aged girl who had a blind test done. She had people put their hands through a blind and asked them which hand was being sent chi energy. The correct response was given less than 40% of the time. This is less than a chance guess. It was published in the Journal of the American Medical Association. Now, I don't know who was 'sending' the chi, and I don't know the agenda of the person judging the scientific accuracy of the study, but this is the only study I know of.
Here's a link which talks about the study.

http://www.abc.net.au/science/k2/moments/gmis9836.htm.

It didn't involve ki, precisely, but rather therapeutic touch. It's a great study though.
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Old 02-28-2003, 12:11 PM   #77
Erik
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Quote:
Richard Williams (RichardWilliams) wrote:
If you primarily approach Qi from the internal, healing related fields (like Qigong) then from my experience you tend to find the sane, sensible, well argued and scientifically validated answers.
Richard, you've just written several pages of "it works, I know it works, so there".

Ok, so where?


Last edited by Erik : 02-28-2003 at 12:14 PM.
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Old 02-28-2003, 05:44 PM   #78
Kujo
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Ken sez:
Quote:
Not that this has anything to do with Aikido but I have to disagree that science is not a religion and that the scientific method does not dictate social behavior. Isn't the scientific method a set of rules that anyone who wishes to call themselves a scientist must follow? Doesn't a set of rules that governs how we ask questions influence the answers we find? Doesn't science hold itself up as the only True Path to knowledge?
*sound of knuckles cracking*

Are you seriously interested in debating this? In order to debate clearly, in a fashion that increases understanding, I suggest that we first agree on the definition of some keystone words. In fact, the act of agreeing on these definitions may very well eliminate any conflict, since by changing the foundation of the debate we may change the conclusions.

I posit defining two concepts: "faith" and "reason". I am using the definitions outlined by Dr. Wheelan, philosophy professor at Georgetown University. He holds a Ph.D. in philosophy and a Ph.D in geophysics, and did a high-energy physics postdoc at Princeton. If you do not agree that these credentials provide sufficient credibility for this discussion, please suggest what system of credentials you do wish to work within and what your rigourous definitions are.

His web page:

http://www.georgetown.edu/faculty/heelanp/

His article on defining faith versus reason, using the Catholic Church and Pope John Paul II's encyclical as the subject of his conference:

http://www.georgetown.edu/faculty/he...ith&Reason.htm

Now, after you give me your complete and precise definition of "faith" and "reason" then I think we have a good foundation with which to distinguish the larger concepts of "religion" and "science". I do not claim that there is no overlap in meaning amongst these concepts. I just want to distinguish "fuzzy logic" from "woolly thinking".

I am holding everything I say up for easy verification for my audience, providing complete transparency for this discussion. I am always interested in hermeneutics and look forward to being enlightened by novel scholarship and well-thought out perspectives.

A quote from Dr. Heelan's page:

"Hermeneutics or interpretation is concerned with the generation, transmission, and acceptance of meaning within the lifeworld and was the original method of the human sciences stemming from F. Schleiermacher and W. Dilthey…Its purpose is to incorporate into the philosophy of science those aspects of historicality, culture, and tradition that are absent from the traditional analysis of theory and explanation, to re-orient the current discussion about scientific realism around the hermeneutics of meaning and truth in science, and to establish some relationship between the current philosophy of natural science and hermeneutical philosophy."

Kujo
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Old 03-01-2003, 06:01 AM   #79
Kelly Allen
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I'd still like to find/see KI/Qi related scientific tests (MRI, boichemical measurements, etc.) Hopefully on subjects who are famous for their acheivments using Ki. Reguardless of wheather its high ranking Ki Society MAists or well known Reiki practitioners. If there is energy produced (and I'm sure there is) it has to be measurable. I for one would like to see the data and the analysis of same.
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Old 03-02-2003, 12:44 AM   #80
W^2
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Eek! Might I play devil's advocate [or referee] ?

Hello Karen,

Since methodological hermeneutics is probably a little off the beaten path for most, I thought I'd post some thoughts relating to your last post as it relates to this thread.

To begin with, methodological hermeneutics is a tenet of philosophy and is not required to discuss religion & science, nor their underlying concepts. It requires a research topic, accurate biographical material of the author, and a historical analysis of the prevailing philosophies of the time period in which the respective research paper was written, applied in an iterative fashion. I think it is rather obvious that this process is beyond the scope of these forums, however interesting it may be. Further, while hermeneutics is certainly academic, it isn't scientific in that it can't explicitly follow the scientific method in application. In fact, it is debatable whether this process does produce any [independently repeatable]clarity to a given subject other than by providing a historical context with which to discuss it.

I might also add that Dr. Wheelan's paper -'Faith & Reason' - while certainly dicussing the concepts of the title, doesn't go so far as to define either of them explicitly. Using that paper as basis for debate would necessarily limit it to the parameters of catholicism and philosophy, and therefore wouldn't serve to clarify the subject of Ki in Scientific thought, nor the differences and similarities of science & religion in general.

Having said that, I do think it is important to differentiate between the Scientific Method and science in general - whether current or historical. In this regard it would be fair to say that some scientists have certainly applied faith in science and the scientific method while pursuing scientific endeavours. This falls squarely within the definition of the words 'faith' and 'religion' given by Merriam-Webster, the first 'allegiance to duty or a person : LOYALTY b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions', and the second as 'a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith'.

However, this does not make either Science or the Scientific Method a religion A Priori. Again, Merriam-Webster defines the word 'science'as the 'knowledge or a system of knowledge covering general truths or the operation of general laws especially as obtained and tested through scientific method b : such knowledge or such a system of knowledge concerned with the physical world and its phenomena : NATURAL SCIENCE'.

Generally, we tend to think of religion as a belief in God or the supernatural and Science as the systematic study and cataloging of the physical - a dichotomy. Unfortunately, due to the rather unreasonable past influence of Religion on Science, there's a strong tendency to promote this paradigm within Scientific circles.

To be continued...

-Ward

Last edited by W^2 : 03-02-2003 at 12:46 AM.
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Old 03-02-2003, 04:31 AM   #81
RichardWilliams
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Quote "Richard, you've just written several pages of "it works, I know it works, so there".

Ok, so where?"

Dear Erik Haselhofer,

Didn't you read the part of my post where i promised to share the information about the sources i've read?

You seem too keen to quote me out of context and too keen to jump on me. Tell me, is it because in this forum nobody really knows who anybody else is and that we will never meet that good manners and simple respect can go out the window?

I'm online briefly to read email before getting outdoors and away from my PC for a while. I WILL post later today, and add what i can as i promised.

Yours,

Richard.
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Old 03-02-2003, 10:31 AM   #82
Erik
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Quote:
Richard Williams (RichardWilliams) wrote:
Didn't you read the part of my post where i promised to share the information about the sources i've read?
I did. You spent a whole bunch of time writing those other posts so I figured it would have been easier to quote sources.

I note that they are still lacking.
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Old 03-02-2003, 10:35 AM   #83
Erik
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Quote:
Kelly Allen wrote:
I'd still like to find/see KI/Qi related scientific tests (MRI, boichemical measurements, etc.) Hopefully on subjects who are famous for their acheivments using Ki. Reguardless of wheather its high ranking Ki Society MAists or well known Reiki practitioners.
I would love to see it too. If people are claiming they can do something they should offer legitimate proof.
Quote:
If there is energy produced (and I'm sure there is) it has to be measurable. I for one would like to see the data and the analysis of same.
Why are you sure they are producing energy above and beyond what everyone else is doing?
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Old 03-02-2003, 11:09 AM   #84
RichardWilliams
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Erik, get a grip! I've read your reply to me, and that alone is annoying. But i've also read your reply to Kerry Allen, and it appears like a second person you have misunderstood.

When i first read your reply to me i was thinking of writing a level headed, simple reply with all the information attached, and not entering a pissing contest which you obviously seem so keen on. But having your next post those thoughts have gone out the window a little.

You are being downright ignorant and arrogant about the few facts you seem to have rattling around your tiny mind. I was quite prepared to be polite but you really are behaving like an intellectual child. I have had enough and wish you would show some patience, some willingness to entertain new concepts and most of all i wish you would GROW UP!!

You write 'Why are you sure they are producing energy above and beyond what everyone else is doing?' This HAS BEEN DONE. Get over it. Certainly do not have a go at Kerry over this point, because a) you misquoted her original post and b) your just plain wrong!

Think carefully about your next post, or this could get a whole load worse for you. I have plenty of facts to hand that can only make you look more ignorant and unwilling to listen.

Ok. Now for the grown up bit (try and stay with us here Erik, i'll try to go slowly for you).

I have personally read many books (>10) and articles on Ki, Chi or Qi. Those books have been from quite different categories. I could refer you to all of them but i won't. This is simply because one book stands head and shoulders above the rest. I highly recommend it and i'm considering buying you your own personal copy Erik (seriously).

The author is Kenneth S Cohen. The title is 'The Way of Qigong - the Art and Science of Chinese Enery Healing'. ISBN 0-345-42109-4.

I think this is by far the best introduction to Qi that i've read so far. Here are some of the quotes attached to the front cover and first page. Having read the whole book i would have to agree with all of them wholeheartedly.

"This breakthrough book is destined to become the classic reference on body energy and healing" - Joan Borysenko, Ph.D.

"Ken Cohen's treatment of the ancient healing and self-healing art of qigong represents the 'gold standard' against which works on other therapeutic methods might well be measured" - Christopher Bird co-author of 'The Secret Life of Plants and Secrets of the Soil'

"Ken Cohen is a rare combination of expert practitioner, gifted scholar and lucid writer. He manages to convey not only the techniques of qigong, but its wisdom. I highly recommend The Way of Qigong for yourself and for those you care about." - Elmer Green, Ph.D, author of Beyond Biofeedback

"THE BEST, MOST COMPREHENSIVE BOOK ON QIGONG WRITTEN. A must for anyone interested in Chinese medicine or Chinese energy healing." - Wayne B. Jonas M.D.

There are three of four more quotes of similar strength at the front of this book. They are all spot on.

I'm going to stop this post here and start a new one. This post is getting a bit long. Don't worry Erik the next wil follow straight away. I'll try to find the bit about the measurement of energy that you were so quick to dismiss.

Yours,

Very Annoyed.
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Old 03-02-2003, 11:38 AM   #85
RichardWilliams
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Reply to Erik: Part II.

Jumping straight to the middle of the book here for Eriks benefit.

(All quotes taken from book listed in previous post, The Way of Qigong by Ken Cohen)

"The Copper Wall Project.

In the West, the most impressive research to document electrical correlates of healing energy is a project originally called "Physical Fields and States of Conciousness", and later known as the Copper Wall project.... conducted in Kansas....

A copper-walled room was constructed, consisting of a copper floor, copper ceiling, and a copper wall to the front and back. Each copper panel was separate from the others and thus electrically independant.....Each subject sat on a chair on a glass base, facing a copper wall, while scientists measured body potential changes and electric fields. As might be expected, in six hundred experimental trials with regular subjects.. ..there were no unusual or large electrical surges. However, when the sensitives (ed. - Qi sensitives) were tested, the results were surprising...... ...during the meditation sessions, body potential surges ranged from 4 volts to 221 volts, with these spikes lasting anywhere from 0.5 seconds to 12.5 seconds.... ..the magnitude of these electrical surges is extraordinary: 10,000 times larger than EKG voltages generated by the body's most powerful electrical organ, the heart, and 100,000 times greater than EEG voltages. These results expand our understanding of both body potential and human body potential."

Please bear in my mind, i'm quoting just small parts of a much larger chapter. You really need to read the whole book for yourself. In this way the information can be better taken in and you will be free to come up with your own conclusions.

Anyway, this is just the tip of the iceberg. One of the overriding impressions i was left with on finishing the book is that Qi is really quite amazing. There are a very large number of experimental correlates of Qi from all sorts of different places. The author, Ken Cohen does an excellent job of presenting all known sources to the reader.

I will try to give a brief flavour of all these correlates below.

First, a quote from the Foreword written by Larry Dossey M.D.

"Someday soon, the principles of healing you are about to read about will be taught in all our medical schools. In fact, this is already beginning to take place, as an increasing number of institutions develop courses in alternative or complementary medicine, including Qigong.

There are two main reasons for the growing acceptance of these methods: They constitute both good science and authentic wisdom. Science and the venerable tradition of qigong are joining hands as you are about to read. As a consequence, qigong can no longer be considered just a matter of faith or belief, nor as only a body of practical knowledge accumulated across the centuries, although this would be impressive enough. When the methods Cohen describes are subjected to rigorous empirical tests, they repeatedly demonstrate their worthiness. These developments are immensely important. They indicate not only increasing acceptance of qigong, but increasing openness within science and medicine as well.... ....In his discussion of qigong, Cohen wears two hats, as all modern healers should. First, he is a scientist. He realizes that science has become the dominant metaphor of our culture, and that we cannot ride roughshod over its methods and messages......."

ok, time to post. Part III coming next.

Last edited by RichardWilliams : 03-02-2003 at 11:42 AM.
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Old 03-02-2003, 12:22 PM   #86
RichardWilliams
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Part III.

All quotes taken from The Way of Qigong by Ken Cohen.

Quote from the section What is Qigong?

"According to Chinese medical theory, health means a full and flowing supply of Qi.... ...However, unlike blood, qi is an invisible subtle force. We know it exists the same way we know sunlight and wind exist. We cannot capture or grasp these forces in the hand, yet we can experience them. Science does not need to prove their existence in order for us to believe in them. Nevertheless, it is wonderful to know the science CAN measure these things. Qi is quantifiable, as research increasingly is proving, but is more than a quantity!"

In the book, the author gives a broad history of Qigong tracing development back thousands of years. He shows how it has been a very important part of Chinese culture for a long time. I would add as an interesting point here (and please note, i read this somewhere other than this particular book, but an equally valid source) that the name of the country of China (Chi'na) is derived from a specific use of the term 'Chi', the vary same Qi / Ki / Chi that we are discussing in this thread!

Further on, the author discusses Bioelectricity...

"Most of the evidence of measurable correlates of Qi have been amassed around the phenomenon of bioelectricity. Although qigong causes obvious physical changes--relaxed muscles and improved respiration and posture--some of its most powerful healing effects are due to its influence on the body's electromagnetic energy."

"If electricity is essential for healing, it must be an important correlate of healing qi. Experiments in both China and the United States confirm this hypothesis... ..there is evidence that during qigong the conductivity of acupuncture points---that is, the ability of these points to conduct an electric charge--changes dramatically. When a qigong practitioner concentrates on a particular point, the skin resistance at that point goes down relative to other acupoints on the body. Researchers tested this hypothesis at Beijing's Institute of Space Medical Engineering and reported their results at the Second World Conference for Academic Exchange of Medical Qigong in 1993.... "

Then the author discusses the copper wall project, already mentioned above.

Then the author discusses the correlation between Qi and Endorphins. Endorphins are the best-known neuropeptides, morphinelike substances found naturally in the human body. Endorphins account for moods of well being or euphoria. Research shows that "endorphins are a correlate of qi, but that qi is more than endorhpins."

Then the author discusses the health hormone DHEA and its relationship to qi.

Next the author discusses Bioluminescence and Qi.

Then he discusses consciousness and how it is a correlate of qi.

You still with us here Erik? I haven't lost you yet have i?

Then the author moves on to a massive amount of experimental evidence showing the effect of qigong practice on health.

There are statistically significant results with regard to healthy heart function and blood pressure,

healthy circulatory system

healthy digestive system

healthy brain function

healthy EEG (Electoencephalogram)

mental health

respiratory system and asthma

the immune system and the big 'C' ...(C is for cancer Erik)

longevity

So we can see a trend here. The positive effects of qi-work (qigong) are profound, and the empirical, scientific evidence is there to back it up.

Unsurprisingly the author also supplies a rather large list of Qigong resources for the interest reader, at the back of the book.

Ok, quite honestly i'm getting bored typing now. If you want more, don't feel shy in coming forward (Erik).

I certainly do not have anywhere near all the answers but know enough to recognize ignorance on this subject when it rears its ugly head. I strongly recommend the book i've heavily quoted. I'm sure most of you will find it a real eye-opener and we should be grateful for people like Ken Cohen who are trying to increase awareness and understanding of Qi in the West (the Chinese have obviously known about it for a long long time).

The book is about 15 dollars in the US, and so it would probably be worth it for me to buy you a copy Erik. I wouldn't mind at all.

I will hear from you soon no doubt.

Richard.
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Old 03-02-2003, 12:42 PM   #87
Erik
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I've made a case for a long time on closed minds and which side is the more closed. Thanks for making my case.

Did you know that you are cute when you are angry?

By the way, does any of this have to do with why Cohen quotes the "Copper Wall Project"?

He was able to demonstrate unusual physiological control as one of 9 "exceptional healers" studied in the Menninger Clinic's Copper Wall Project.

http://www.qigonghealing.com/html/aboutcohen.html

It's funny though. For something revolutionary, as clearly this is claimed to be, there seems to be remarkably little information available on it. I'll see what I can find from a more even-handed perspective.
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Old 03-02-2003, 01:42 PM   #88
Erik
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Quote:
Richard Williams (RichardWilliams) wrote:
"According to Chinese medical theory, health means a full and flowing supply of Qi....
Ok, that doesn't mean anything, but ok.
Quote:
...However, unlike blood, qi is an invisible subtle force. We know it exists the same way we know sunlight and wind exist.
It is so. I know it is so. I have said it is so, therefore, it is so.
Quote:
We cannot capture or grasp these forces in the hand, yet we can experience them. Science does not need to prove their existence in order for us to believe in them.
At least this one is honest. It's belief.
Quote:
Nevertheless, it is wonderful to know the science CAN measure these things. Qi is quantifiable, as research increasingly is proving, but is more than a quantity!"
Valid, double-blind, hard-core research, no doubt.
Quote:
He shows how it has been a very important part of Chinese culture for a long time.
So....black cats, walking under ladders, friday the 13th have long been a part of culture too. Big Whoop! Do you still believe in Santa Claus?
Quote:
"If electricity is essential for healing, it must be an important correlate of healing qi.
It is so. I know it is so. I have said it is so, therefore, it is so.
Quote:
When a qigong practitioner concentrates on a particular point, the skin resistance at that point goes down relative to other acupoints on the body. Researchers tested this hypothesis at Beijing's Institute of Space Medical Engineering and reported their results at the Second World Conference for Academic Exchange of Medical Qigong in 1993.... "
From http://www.quackwatch.org/01Quackery...opics/acu.html.

The quality of TCM research in China has been extremely poor. A recent analysis of 2,938 reports of clinical trials reported in Chinese medical journals concluded that that no conclusions could be drawn from the vast majority of them. The researchers stated:

In most of the trials, disease was defined and diagnosed according to conventional medicine; trial outcomes were assessed with objective or subjective (or both) methods of conventional medicine, often complemented by traditional Chinese methods. Over 90% of the trials in non-specialist journals evaluated herbal treatments that were mostly proprietary Chinese medicines. . . .

Although methodological quality has been improving over the years, many problems remain. The method of randomisation was often inappropriately described. Blinding was used in only 15% of trials. Only a few studies had sample sizes of 300 subjects or more. Many trials used as a control another Chinese medicine treatment whose effectiveness had often not been evaluated by randomised controlled trials. Most trials focused on short term or intermediate rather than long term outcomes. Most trials did not report data on compliance and completeness of follow up. Effectiveness was rarely quantitatively expressed and reported. Intention to treat analysis was never mentioned. Over half did not report data on baseline characteristics or on side effects. Many trials were published as short reports. Most trials claimed that the tested treatments were effective, indicating that publication bias may be common; a funnel plot of the 49 trials of acupuncture in the treatment of stroke confirmed selective publication of positive trials in the area, suggesting that acupuncture may not be more effective than the control treatments.

Quote:
Then the author discusses the correlation between Qi and Endorphins. Endorphins are the best-known neuropeptides, morphinelike substances found naturally in the human body. Endorphins account for moods of well being or euphoria. Research shows that "endorphins are a correlate of qi, but that qi is more than endorhpins."
It is so. I know it is so. I have said it is so, therefore, it is so.
Quote:
Then the author discusses the health hormone DHEA and its relationship to qi.

Next the author discusses Bioluminescence and Qi.

Then he discusses consciousness and how it is a correlate of qi.
It is so. I know it is so. I have said it is so, therefore, it is so.
Quote:
You still with us here Erik? I haven't lost you yet have i?
Your woo-woo science lost me, and other rational types, long ago.
Quote:
Then the author moves on to a massive amount of experimental evidence showing the effect of qigong practice on health.
That doesn't prove Qi. Exercise produces a whole wealth of results. Why are people so willing to buy into this stuff and we can't get them to buy into weightlifting?
Quote:
There are statistically significant results with regard to healthy heart function and blood pressure,

healthy circulatory system

healthy digestive system

healthy brain function

healthy EEG (Electoencephalogram)

mental health

respiratory system and asthma

the immune system and the big 'C' ...(C is for cancer Erik)

longevity
LMAO! Again, it doesn't prove Qi just that certain results may have been achieved through QiGong practice. But I gotta tell you, those are mighty big claims. Or, as Mom used to say, "you are wearing your britches kind of big aren't you?" We have not even proved many of the effects claimed by vitamins and there is a massive amount of research there. So QiGong has proven all of these things in one book? It's proven longevity? I must repeat....

It is so. I know it is so. I have said it is so, therefore, it is so.
Quote:
So we can see a trend here. The positive effects of qi-work (qigong) are profound, and the empirical, scientific evidence is there to back it up.
The only trend I see is an adamant believer who read a book. There may well be positive effects to QiGong practice. That is a different topic from the existence of Qi. One does not mean the other.

If I walked across a busy intersection, told you I was guided by Zeus, does that prove the existence of Zeus? Not! Repeat many times! Repeat blindfolded! Repeat with blindfolded drivers! Repeat with non-Zeus guided types. Repeat a whole bunch of different ways. In the end, what have you proven?

That one person has the ability to walk across the street while blindfolded while believing he is guided by Zeus.

You have not proven Zeus.
Quote:
Ok, quite honestly i'm getting bored typing now. If you want more, don't feel shy in coming forward (Erik).
At least you spelled my name right.
Quote:
but know enough to recognize ignorance on this subject when it rears its ugly head.
I'm not sure about that. Any mirrors in your house?

I admit it! That was a cheap shot. But you started it.

I'll see what I can find on the Copper Wall project. It'll probably prove to be woo-woo science but we'll see what happens.

Last edited by Erik : 03-02-2003 at 01:45 PM.
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Old 03-02-2003, 02:04 PM   #89
RichardWilliams
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I give up! You win!

You're clearly a moron and there's no arguing with that.

All you've done is pull apart quotes i've made from somebody elses work. How on earth does that invalidate the original author who you still have not read.

It is clear that will not allow yourself free thinking on this subject.

You really are pathetic, and i hope it doesn't get in the way of others reading this book.

Yours,

Incredulous.




Last edited by RichardWilliams : 03-02-2003 at 02:08 PM.
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Old 03-02-2003, 02:25 PM   #90
ikkainogakusei
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Fallacies of Distraction

Quote:
Erik Haselhofer (Erik) wrote:
Here's a link which talks about the study.

http://www.abc.net.au/science/k2/moments/gmis9836.htm.

It didn't involve ki, precisely, but rather therapeutic touch. It's a great study though.
Hi Erik, you're right, my apologies for not being clear in the text of my message, my thoughts were along the lines of Complimentary and Alternative Medicines.

I see that the temperature of this thread has risen and I wonder if we should consider a few things.



First, it's not likely that we can prove, scientifically or not, the existance or non-existance of ki, to everyone's satisfaction on this thread.



Second, just because someone does not hold the same view, does not mean it is a license to insult or deride another.

Third, I'd like to point out that in logical discourse there is a set of defined fallacies which help prevent us from jumping to the wrong conclusions. One of those categories is called "Fallacies of Distraction" and within that is 'From Ignorance': because something is not known to be true, it is assumed to be false. Can we agree that ki cannot be annihilated from our repitoir just because one or more of us does not see what we think is current scientific proof of it? It neither disproves nor proves its legitimacy?

Also, when it comes to electrical 'energy' one must consider many things.

Volts are not necessarily the best measurement (alone) of 'energy'. For example, a balloon with static energy has a potential for several thousand volts, but typically has less than a millionth of a coulomb. The charge of a coulomb is important in the equation. (see Paul G. Hewitt, Conceptual Physics)

(red herring) In doing a search on ES chrge from carpet, I found this page.

http://www.esdjournal.com/techpapr/sfowler/ccenters.htm

I don't have my physiology books with me, so I can't get the actual data on the electrical energy in the average human heart but I do know that an internal (artificial)pacemaker generally sends within 5-40 joules to the heart to get it back on track. I know it is a leap, but it might be near the general electrical impulse level in the heart.

[1 Joule = 2.777 778 x 10(to the negative fourth power) watt hour] That's very small.

Does this make the 'copper room' experiment insignificant? No, but it would be good to look at the charge level and understand it in order to put things in perspective. Also, is it possible that the voltage is an artifact of Ki, and not the Ki itself? Maybe, I certainly can't decide this myself. With regard to Ki and it's manifestation/affect between two people (ki master/ healer to reciever) it would be interesting to see both sides and effects.
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Old 03-02-2003, 02:31 PM   #91
RichardWilliams
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There is an aspect of discussing Qi that i've deliberately avoided because it most certainly moves away from written down science, but for someone like you Erik, is certainly a difficult thing to argue against.

That aspect is actual Qigong practice by an individual. If you were to invest a small amount of time to try the simple exercises at the beginning of Qigong practice, say several weeks, then you may infact experience for yourself, first hand, the experience of Qi flowing in your own body.

I practice Qigong, and i promise you, forget the book, forget everything else i've ever said. If you train for a short while you begin to experience things happening that make you really sit back and think about Qi.

Of course, you're gonna love refuting this one. All you need to say is that i can't back it up, and that i'm obviously full of it.

Well try it for yourself. Actually try it.

Failing that (which you probably will), get of your arse and find somebody (in the flesh) who practices and has practiced Qigong for several years. Ask them for their experience. Forget me, there are many people world-wide who practice Qigong everyday. I'm sure you should find it difficult to track them down and talk to them.

The thing that is really sticking in my throat with your words is that I KNOW it to be real from practicing it. You cannot know this, and must only resort to what you can find written down in sources that you can believe. This self-knowledge gives me an undeniable appreciation of Qi and hence a very great inability to back down from facts that fit perfectly with my own experience.

I am also healthier and stronger than before. Is this really just a placebo effect or is there something to it?

And please! don't make out i started it. Go back to the first post you wrote. Your post was presumptious, arrogant and lacked basic respect for someone you'd never met. Where do you get off on that kind of behaviour?

R.
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Old 03-02-2003, 05:00 PM   #92
Erik
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I'm only going to take on one part of the discussion here and surely get flamed for it.
Quote:
I am also healthier and stronger than before.
How are you healthier and stronger? Is it measurable? You can pick up more weight today than prior to Qigong? What other factors in Qigong might lead you to be healthier than before? Just the physical activity of doing something may make a difference. Maybe you just think you are healthier which by the way is fine with me. You claim Qigong prevents/heals cancer? How so? This is measured somewhere? How?

You have no clue how hard it is to prove something like this but you emphatically state these things as fact and leap to conclusions based on them.

When I was 7 or so I used to be afraid of werewolves. Go figure. Well, one day I walked around the corner of the hallway and saw a werewolf. I vividly remember the experience. I saw, I felt and it was real when it happened. I ran back to Mom and Dad too. No way would I have listened to the following questions:

How did it get in the house?

How come no one else saw/heard it?

How come it didn't make any sounds?

How come it didn't chase me?

How come it wasn't there when I went back with Mom & Dad?

Of course none of that disproves what I imagined that I saw. It could have teleported into the house from it's alien spaceship. It was studying human beings and it's invisibility device failed allowing me to see it. It's sound dampening system worked though. Upon realizing that it had been seen it immediately teleported out of the house and back to it's space ship never to return.

The reason I was afraid of werewolves up to that point is because I was secretly in tune with their magnetic fields. Being that I'm in the Northern half of the Earth, and the qi of us Northerners congregates there, it's logical that my perceptions were heightened to sense werewolves.

There you go. I experienced.

By the way, that Northern bit is something I picked up from a Qigong book today.

I don't think you get my point at all. It may very well be that QiGong has health benefits. Lots of physical activities do. I could recite a litany of benefits for many activities. It just doesn't mean all the rest, or even any of it.

That's were I take exception.
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Old 03-02-2003, 05:40 PM   #93
Erik
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Note: Some nasty grammar and spelling in that last post. My apologies.

And the ki of those in the Southern hemisphere congregates in the lower more sexual part of the body. In Northerners it congregates in their head.

I read it in a book on QiGong therefore it's true.
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Old 03-02-2003, 06:30 PM   #94
Erik
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Re: Fallacies of Distraction

Quote:
Jane Tao (ikkainogakusei) wrote:
One of those categories is called "Fallacies of Distraction" and within that is 'From Ignorance': because something is not known to be true, it is assumed to be false. Can we agree that ki cannot be annihilated from our repitoir just because one or more of us does not see what we think is current scientific proof of it? It neither disproves nor proves its legitimacy?
I'd like to state this differently, or, maybe I'm stating something else. It may be that ki exists? It's also, however, impossible to prove that something doesn't exist. Just because we cannot prove that it does not exist does not mean that it does exist. I think therefore that the burden of proof lies with those attempting to prove something does exist.

What I'm arguing for is a much higher standard of proof than is typically delivered.

For instance, in Marin, CA, they have recently discovered a breast cancer cluster. Many have jumped on the bandwagon as proof of the dangers of whatever issue they champion, particularly pesticides. These same people forget that Marin has more money and women receive better medical care increasing the likelihood it will be caught. Women with money also tend to delay giving birth which increases the likelihood of breast cancer. Maybe it's a type of tree in the area? Maybe it's just a statistical fluke? Or, maybe it is pesticides?

Proving these types of things are incredibly complicated and it's the point which is almost always missed. Proponents of these sorts of practices often make big claims with no proof.

I have proven one thing.

Richard can get MAD!


Last edited by Erik : 03-02-2003 at 06:33 PM.
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Old 03-02-2003, 07:21 PM   #95
PeterR
 
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Published books - especially those directed at a general audience and even more so those by authors have a vested interest don't count. I can't tell scientific from anecdote. Yeah that includes the Copper Room.

A study, appearing in a reputable Scientific Jounal is all that is being asked for. This means that any one can reproduce the experiment, anytime.

Non-mainstream science gets in all the time - we have cold fusion, poly water and that study were a solution infinately diluted seemed to contain maintain an effect. Certain alternative health groups loved that last one but in the end all the above experiments were either not reproducable or the effect was explained.

The thing is if the Ki/Qi people would have just stayed with the more esoteric descriptions all would have been good. What we have though is an attempt to impress (read sell books) by clothing the debate in science. Well sorry, but science is not a bunch of jargon. It REQUIRES proof - and that has not been shown.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 03-02-2003, 10:11 PM   #96
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
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Ki and Determinism

To summarize my thoughts, I will appeal to George Leonard-sensei in his book "The Way of Aikido". He there succinctly phrased his view of supernatural acts supposedly made by martial arts masters - to paraphrase, "I don't believe them necessarily, but I won't say they're impossible, because I've seen a lot of things happen that were once thought impossible."

One thing that I think is perhaps nice about many people's treatment of ki is that they don't see why it necessarily must be some magic force - many say "By thinking this way, and following this 'ki training', I find it helps me in my daily life and aikido. So there's no need to wonder what /really/ causes it, per se."

To give my suggestion as to why 'ki' is such a big deal for physicists, I would point to the law of conservation of mass and energy. Ki in the sense of energy that can knock someone over or send telepathic messages (that is, go over and actually fuss around with the biological circuitry/memory systems of another human) implies that it is something which can alter the state of matter - it has force, energy, tangibility, because it can interact with physical matter.

This ties into the topic of physical determinism, applied to more philosophical considerations.

Basically, determinism holds that given every single bit of data on the universe as it is, you can say what it will look like the next instant. ("Things can only happen one way.") This is, like many scientific theories, extremely simplistic and 'obvious', but positively /loaded/ with depth and implications.

It seems common sensical to say 'Sure, given all the data on a certain ball held at a certain height in a certain place, you could theoretically do all the equations and calculations that would tell you /exactly/ what it would do. Chaos theory (the idea that sometimes, little errors 'snowball' into big inaccuracies - the common illustration is the cute image of leaving out a single butterfly flapping its wings in the rainforest in a big weather computer: no problems on day one, or day ten, but day five thousand's predictions would be horribly inaccurate.) doesn't really play in here: chaos theory relies on a tiny error. We're saying "what if there were no error in the measurements" - a "God's-eye view", as it were.

Okay, that's nothing special.

But ... remember that our actions, words, etc. are triggered by neural impulses.

The human brain is basically a computer. Rather than circuits, it has nerves. The differences between these two things are really quite academic. They both convey electric (or at least electro-chemical) impulses; they both are a network of connections with inputs (e.g. senses) and outputs (e.g. muscle-activating nerves).

Actually, we don't even really need to compare the brain to a computer.

It only needs to be noted, to create a philosophical quandry, that the human brain is physical. A bunch of cells, or going a level down, a bunch of arrangements of proteins, or a step down, a bunch of arrangements of amino acids...molecules bonded this way and that...atoms bonded this way and that...and so on.

This means, if you view it deterministically, that your thoughts, feelings, actions, etc. are all determined by the electrochemical configuration of your brain. It means that humans are a predictable and mechanical component of the world - complex but not "Special".

How could it be that humans /are/ "special"?

Well, to make a long philosophical discussion short, you might bring in something like a "Ki Effect".

Basically, the problem with consciousness/free will in the physical world is cause-and-effect determinism: things only happen when they are caused, and a precisely defined cause causes a single specific effect. (If you rewound the universe and played the tape again, it'd be the same: the rules don't change, and you have the same start conditions.)

It is possible to say (although this is entirely non-scientifically significant, because it is an assumption/assertion that has no support or evidence against it, and in fact because it is so far non-testable, can't have either) that on some other plane - a "spiritual world", say, with its own rules and regulations that somehow don't include the notion of cause-and-effect that is in play in the physical world - free will is logically possible. (Perhaps there is no time, perhaps...well. I won't go into more speculation.)

If this spiritual plane, which allows free will because it lacks the laws of cause-and-effect, etc., can somehow interact with the physical world, then we can support the long-standing (though not unchallenged) philosophical assertion that human beings have free will, that they are /special/.

How can this happen?

Well, if one's "spirit" actually can change "thoughts", "feelings", "actions", etc. (all the results of alterations in brain chemistry - all the results of manipulating physical matter, i.e. your brain) then we have something that may be called:

"The Ki Effect": A theoretical mechanism whereby non-phyiscal entities may alter the physical world.

This might just be making a neuron fire when it should not have (neurons, to grossly oversimplify, fire only when, like any other circuit element, an impulse reaches them that was transmitted from another neuron.) That is, a neuron is sitting there, and suddenly, out of nowhere, electrochemical energies appear and make it fire.

This should seem really, really weird to most physicists or scientists out there ("quantum randomness", which I won't address due to the need to be somewaht concise, aside). It implies that energy and matter /just appears/. (Or disappears; it doesn't matter.)

It could be that this "Ki effect" can do more than just alter neurons; but in fact can have more profound effects - letting O-Sensei resist the force of multiple strong individuals pushing on his jo, for instance. In other words, telekinesis.

How could this be measured scientifically?

While this is well beyond the current capacities of science, it could be that someday we will be able to circuit-map the neurons of our brain, and see where all the energy is flowing. We could then make a model of that particular brain (whoever's is used) and give it all the data that exists (even little gravitational tugs on a neurochemical by a distant moon of Jupiter) that can change the way it would act. Then we compare what actually happens in that brain - what neurons fire when, for instance - with the model's predictions.

If, say, a neuron fires when it shouldn't, or doesn't fire when it should, we can assert that either

1) We're missing some physical force (perhaps 'quantum randomness')

2) The "Ki Effect" exists - something nonphysical is somehow altering the physical world.

Something to think about.
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Old 03-02-2003, 11:08 PM   #97
shadow
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wow.... go away for a month and things explode!

i never expected my post to ignite such a lengthy debate, i havent read all of the pages here but i find that all the way through my original point was missed. im no science expert, no mysticism expert or no aikido expert.

firstly i did not say that matter and energy are interchangeable, they are one and the same! at the particle level matter (mass) exists as energy so taking that all the way up to our level, we are made of energy (particles flying around at extremely high speeds giving the appearance of a solid form). this statement was not based on mysticism but on scientific research.

but nowhere in my original post did i try and explain ki in terms of science. i was merely pointing out a parallel that i found interesting. the particle energy i described above is as mysterious to science is as ki is to mystics. yet the description (again as soon as we bind anything by words it loses its meaning) given by both appear to be very similiar. matter is made from energy in science. the universe is made from ki (chi, prajna, whatever) in mysticism.

i give no explination for either here, but to me it just shows how both eastern and western ways of thought can complement each other and at the basic level are one and the same.

as i have said earlier, it would make sense if all the leading intellegence of the world had the same universal views wouldnt it? it would mean that yes there is some kind of rule/structure/form applicible to the universe we live in and that it can be understood in a variety of ways.

anyways back to the arguing!


happiness. harmony. compassion.
--damien--
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Old 03-02-2003, 11:18 PM   #98
shadow
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Quote:
Peter Rehse (PeterR) wrote:
Well sorry, but science is not a bunch of jargon. It REQUIRES proof - and that has not been shown.
peter, i study science right now and the very first thing we learnt is, THERE IS NO PROOF IN SCIENCE. simple as that. everything in science, every little thing is merely a theory (apart from some aspects of chemsitry). its all just an estimate of the way the universe works. nothing is put down ever as being definite. a good example is newtons laws of physics are now basically seen as not being relevant to the way the universe really works. at the quantum level newtons laws dont work. they only work at our visible level and even then only give approximations not exact answers.

happiness. harmony. compassion.
--damien--
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Old 03-03-2003, 03:09 AM   #99
mike lee
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the key to ki

I don't know if this is going to help at all, but I'll give it a shot.

Any medical doctor can tell when a patient's dead. If there is enough residual ki (or energy) left in the body, and if the body isn't in too bad a condition, some people can be revived.

In the West, we work with ki all of the time, we just don't describe it as such. At the psychological level, for example, when a person is depressed, they complain of having low energy. When they're happy, they seem to have lots of energy. What changed? Clearly the mind can be likened to a valve that influences the flow of ki to varying degrees, depending on ones mental condition and approach to life.

The ancients in the East, as well as modern medical doctors in the West, are well aware of the mind's influence on the flow of energy, life force, or ki, in the human body.

How often do you hear a doctor say that a patient is dying because they have lost the will to live? On the other hand, there are many cases where a patient should have died, but because of influences such as intense prayer (using the spirit to influence the mind), a patient makes a quick and unexplainable recovery.

I think that if we step back and take a look at things a little more objectively, we will find that there are more similarities than differences in Eastern and Western thought. It's just that the terms or the way of expressing certain ideas seem to be different.

Being incredulous isn't helpful, but neither is blind faith.

Lou-tzu was describing ki when he described a spring where the flow of water had slowed. The water had become dank and murky. But when the flow is robust and strong, the water becomes clear and drinkable.

Last edited by mike lee : 03-03-2003 at 03:13 AM.
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Old 03-03-2003, 08:07 AM   #100
RichardWilliams
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Hi again Erik,

You write "You have no clue how hard it is to prove something like this but you emphatically state these things as fact and leap to conclusions based on them."

I have a VERY good understanding of how hard it is to prove something like this, thanks to individuals like your good self.

I HAVE given you enough information so that you could stop posting for a while and go away and properly, objectively research this subject. You appear to prefer to simply respond to my posts 10 minutes after they arrive. Clearly this allows no time for reflection or lengthy research. You are acting on your gut feeling and trying your best to use your previously learnt understanding of the world to argue your case. This is not good enough.

You repeatedly use the words:

"It is so. I know it is so. I have said it is so, therefore, it is so."

to counter what i've posted.

Your input to this thread on close examintaion is no more than:

"It isn't so. I know it isn't so. I have said it isn't so, therefore, it isn't so."

I have quoted research areas that you could go away and analyze independantly to any input from me. You have not presented counter-research, so how you can possibly be so certain that you are in the right?

Isn't this what they call presumption and arrogance?

You say i'm leaping to conclusions. Certainly not. I'm vary careful about what i know (or believe) about the range of possibilities of Qi. I also do not accept several ideas put forward related to Qi. Please do not suggest that because i think one thing is true about Qi that everything written about Qi is correct, because this is not a view i hold.

Please spend some time to think about the following, and don't just reply in 10 minutes.

In the UK recently, an elderly gentleman was interviewed on national radio. He gave an account of his own experience.

Many years ago he was diagnosed with a serious case of cancer. The doctor had told him he had, at best, three years (i think this figure is correct). The doctor recommended chemotherapy as a last ditch attempt to cure the cancer but indicated in this mans case it only had a small chance of success.

The man pondered his options and turned down the chemotherapy. As you probably know, it has many undesirable side effects.

Many years later he is still alive. Why? Because he changed his lifestyle and importantly began practice of Qigong. Apart from curing the cancer (gone without a trace) his general health is better. This gentleman was on the radio to plug his new book that gives his account of what happened.

There is a second account i read recently of a woman who was diagnosed with ovarian cancer. She was treated by a Qigong healer. On return to her doctor, a re-examination showed the tumour had completed disappeared. Of course her doctor wanted to know what had happened too.

There are many more stories like this.

So the thing to consider here is,

if someone has a life threatening tumour that is observed by Western medicine, and then this person does not take a single prescription drug, or take an accepted course of Western treatment (chemotherapy) and then some time later the tumour disappears and that person returns to good health through self qigong practice or visits to a qigong healer, then what is going on?

You have two ways to go here Erik. You could accept just this one fact that the Qigong DOES cure serious illness, or can disprove Qigongs relationship to the person being cured.

Now having a go at me is easy. Just write a post calling me a liar.

Having done this contact the first person who has written an account of such a situation and tell them they are full of it too.

Keep doing this with everybody that knows first hand the healing power of Qigong. Where will this get you?

Would you prefer to suggest a possible alternative? Maybe all of these people were secretly abducted by aliens and operated on, or maybe a secret government agency did it.

God forbid that it might actually be something to do with Qigong. I mean, how could this possible be? You obviously have a very thorough understanding of how the universe ticks, and if you can't see it being true then it can't possible be true can it?

You see, the real problem here is when you argue with me all you can achieve is showing that i am unable to properly argue the case for qigong. This does not too disprove the healing effects of Qigong. If you argue with the accounts i describe you are arguing with a very large number of people. Are we all wrong? Surely not.

R.
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