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Old 02-03-2003, 03:02 AM   #51
Jim ashby
Dojo: Phoenix Coventry
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SQUIDS. Superconducting Quantum Interference Detectors.

Have fun

Vir Obesus Stola Saeptus
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Old 02-03-2003, 04:16 AM   #52
mike lee
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sea food

And all this time I thought it was refering to US naval personnel.
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Old 02-05-2003, 11:40 AM   #53
gadsmf@aol.com
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Ai symbol Physics and Ki

Good science can explain many things but Ki

shouldn't be one of them. This whole thread came to be because physics has demonstrated the existence of some very weird phenomena especially at the quantum level (uncertainty principle, quantum entanglement etc.)

However, just because some weird phenomena have been demonstrated by physics does not mean any weird phenomenon or concept

can or should have a physical explaination.

I believe in Ki because I've seen it work but trying to explain is as self defeating as trying to catch a thought with a butterfly net.

Let science explain the explainable

and let Ki retain it's mystery.

I highly recommend Leon Lederman's

"The God Particle", where he bemoans the

trend towards quantum mysticism. Most entertaining.

There, I've published, now I'm sure I'll be damned.

DL Gadd
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Old 02-06-2003, 03:37 AM   #54
mike lee
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Cool they're full of it!

Quote:
I believe in Ki because I've seen it work but trying to explain is as self defeating as trying to catch a thought with a butterfly net.
I don't think ki is something that one needs to "believe in" like a god, it's just something that we can cultivate in our body to make us stronger and healthier.

For example, a person doesn't need to believe in the internal-combustion engine in order to drive, nor does one need to have a thorough understanding of air-foils in order to fly.

Young people, even in Asia, have a hard time understanding ki because their bodies are literally full of it. (It's like the eye trying to see itself.)

But as we age, aches and pains creep into our bodies for various reasons; previous injuries, rhumatism, etc. The pain we feel is ki trying to flow.

In fact, Chinese doctors say that when we stop feeling pain it means that the problem is in an advanced stage.

Therefore, in Asia, various means are utilized to stimulate the flow of ki in sick or ailing people. Some of the treatments are similar to Western physical therapy. Other treatments can range from meditation (to relax and overcome severe pain), to various physical movements, yoga, accupuncture, moxibustion, etc.

My personal choice is a combination of yoga, meditation, tai chi chuan and aikido sword and jo kata.

An old Zen Buddhist monk once told me that the best way to overcome physical problems is to learn to overcome them one's self, not depending on others.

In the West people often want a quick fix for their problems — a doctor a pill, etc. But they seldom get to the root of the problem, ultimately percipitating even worse illnesses.

For example, why do so many Westerners have headaches, low-back pain and sore feet at the end of the day? Instead of complaining to a doctor, they may want to consider that fact that drinking excessive amounts of coffee has very negative effects on the body, and consiquently the flow of ki. It's too acidic, it constricts the blood vessals, limiting the flow of ki to various parts of the body, especially where the blood vessals are small, like the head. This is not even to mention the fact cafeine make people tense, further restricting the flow of ki in the body.

Add large amounts of red meat and sugar, which also turn acidic during digestion, and people's bodies become hopelessly out of balance.

Please don't get met wrong — I love a good cup of coffee, but if one wants to cultivate ki in the body, six cups a day is a curse.

Alchohol is another story, but that's mainly related to lowering oxygen levels in the blood and flooding the body with sugars.

It's been my experience that the aging process is the best challenge and opportunity to learn about ki. Young people should just be concerned about keeping physically fit, healthy and having a good time — they're already full of ki.

Last edited by mike lee : 02-06-2003 at 03:43 AM.
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Old 02-12-2003, 11:41 PM   #55
Kujo
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Hello again all,

Just starting off with a joke:

ever notice that anything with "science" in its name isn't one? (creation science, christian science, political science...)

anyway, been interesting reading, this thread.

some of you may enjoy this article:

http://slate.msn.com/id/2078486/

Here, a science writer describes why he turned away from Buddhism, and why he abandoned routes of spirituality because he could not reconcile them with what he perceived science concluded about reality.

A quote of the final paragraph:

"All religions, including Buddhism, stem from our narcissistic wish to believe that the universe was created for our benefit, as a stage for our spiritual quests. In contrast, science tells us that we are incidental, accidental. Far from being the raison d'´ętre of the universe, we appeared through sheer happenstance, and we could vanish in the same way. This is not a comforting viewpoint, but science, unlike religion, seeks truth regardless of how it makes us feel. Buddhism raises radical questions about our inner and outer reality, but it is finally not radical enough to accommodate science's disturbing perspective. The remaining question is whether any form of spirituality can."

It is quite a provocative statement! I do not agree that science tell us that we are accidental. Science is a tool for understanding, integrating and extrapolating our observations of this shared reality in an objective fashion. The conclusions one derives are always placed within a very well-defined context. Such a generalized statement that "we are accidental" steps outside of science and becomes a personal opinion.

The author of the article has an interesting website too: www.johnhorgan.com. I'm curious to see what people think of what this author has to say.

I still don't know enough about ki to say anything new about it, but I will say this about science:

Anybody could make science sound like Trivial Pursuit, a bizarre urge to collect facts that other people don't consider interesting, or some sort of categorization fetish. It is not these things! It is a way of using wonder and intellect to construct progressively refined models of reality. Its power lies in reproducible experiments and models that can incorporate past data and test future predictions. Therefore, one obvious way science won't increase your understanding is that if you can't devise an experiment where you can put in controls or explain certain results, it can't help you. This happens a lot in research -- the unexpected result, the unexplained phenomenon. Science doesn't seek to idolize these events. Science backs up one step, and refines the experiment so that it can be interpreted. This approach is necessarily limited. That is both its weakness and its strength. Science makes no comment about what to do when you're stuck and can't think of cool experiments. But then, it doesn't *impose* a methodology either. The blank slate is prison and freedom both.

To repeat: Science is not a religion! The roots of many religions was an explicit way to organize societies -- morality was a way to keep people from killing each other or dying prematurely. It is no accident that religions are so preoccupied with controlling sex and food -- sex usually led to more humans to deal with, and food was needed to keep humans existing. Science does not codify any sort of ethics regarding these activities. The only ethics codified within science are designed to protect the quality of science (not talking about the wider ethics of examining how science affects society -- that's a different topic).

Anyway, I'm still neutral on the idea of whether or not what science has shown so far will grant useful insight into defining/demonstrating ki as a universal constant. However, I do believe that application of the scientific method to study how ki, or the concept of ki, affects people -- that to me is a much more tractable phenomenon.

And I stand by my earlier posts that cherry-picking scientific facts to match or provide evidence for one's preconceived ideology about *anything* is intellectually dishonest. It may be an emotional exercise to figure out why you feel the way you do, but don't call it science. Call it therapy.

kujo
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Old 02-13-2003, 10:45 AM   #56
Erik
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Karen,

very well said.
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Old 02-13-2003, 11:46 AM   #57
John Boswell
 
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Just thought I'd throw this out there for Trivia Interest:

Saint Thomas Aquinas was cannonized a saint in the Catholic Church. During his life, he used LOGIC to PROVE the existance of GOD.

That's no easy feat, I'm sure. Anyone that wants to throw "Science" around to talk one way or another about religion will have the hands full trying to tackle good old St. Tom.

Personally, I say: "Judge for yourself." But then again, I talk alot. :P

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Old 02-13-2003, 07:50 PM   #58
ikkainogakusei
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Okay I can't help but chime in here.

I won't profess to be an authority, especially in regards to quantum physics and sub-atomic particles, but I've had some exposure to scientific research with regard to some things attributed to Ki/chi/qi/keehae.

FIRST: can we agree that each of us has our perspective of the attributes of Ki?

SECOND: Let me put forth that I am not providing a definitive answer, but rather food for thought, and possibly the creation of new questions.

THIRD: It is not my intention to belittle other views or definitions of Ki.

'Kay sorry just wanted to put that out.

With regard to strength and Ki, there are three important aspects to the anatomy of a muscle that come into play.

First is motor unit recruitment. You may have noticed that you can vary the amount of strength used in your muscles depending upon the power needed to do a task. This is because the nerves that go from your brain to your muscle are devided into separate neurons which each feed into a certain number of muscle fibers in your muscle, The second is the muscle spindle, this is a nerve 'organ' that tells you how stretched or contracted your muscle is. Close your eyes and bend your elbow. Part of the information that tells you where your arm is, is coming from the muscle spindles (see Disembodied Lady 'Man who mistook his wife for a hat' Oliver Sacks). Another part is from the golgi tendon organ.

Another job of both the GTO and the muscle spindles is to excite or inhibit the muscle in contraction, depending on what you are doing. They're meant to keep you from over-doing it and ripping more muscle than you can repair. Ever heard of that guy on PCP who was only 90 lbs, but somehow could lift a fridge? One of the reasons he could do that is because he didn't get that inhibitory message.

What does that have to do with Ki? Well there have been a few exercise physiologists who wanted to know how these old guys doing martial arts could exert so much strength. To them it didn't add up, since the aging effects of muscle tissue didn't quite explain it (i.e. type one oft eventually becomes type II after damage/secondary or primary aging).

So they got a few 'old guys' who were doing martial arts Xseveral decades and they did a bunch of tests. What they found doing EMG analysis (electromyography) is that these guys had a vastly greater level of motor unit recruitment than was considered normal for humans. So their muscles may have seemed smaller, or even not the 'right type' but they were using more of it than many young athletes. They then looked at the response of the GTO and spindle and found that these guys were able to inhibit the inhibitors, that they rewired their brains to control something that is very difficult to control, but with enough ability that they didn't injure themselves.

Also, I am currently taking a class in neuro-motor control and the professor had been talking about some new research on the shout used by power lifters. They also did the same sort of tests on the lifters and found that this shout had a smaller but similar effect on the motor-unit recruitment, spindles, and GTO. What pops into my mind is how this shout might be related to the kiai. Of course the kiai has more obvious effects of timing the tightening of trunk muscles etc. I haven't got the journal article on this shout yet, but I plan to at the next possible moment.

With regard to the biofeedback measurement and the other manifestations of ki, I don't know. I don't feel like I must define these things, or affirm or deny their existance. Nor do I feel the compulsion to assert my views as being better or more accurate than anyone else's. I think the elephant analogy is quite appropriate here.

Respectfully,

me

PS I can't vouch for this article, I actually haven't read it yet, but while doing a document search it came up (from PROBE: the unknown) so I thought I'd leave a link.

http://64.224.111.216/archives/kki/1973/jan73/ki.html
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Old 02-14-2003, 04:02 PM   #59
Kujo
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Jane sez:
Quote:
They then looked at the response of the GTO and spindle and found that these guys were able to inhibit the inhibitors, that they rewired their brains to control something that is very difficult to control, but with enough ability that they didn't injure themselves.
Fascinating! I wonder if this is a matter of *recalibrating* the feedback mechanism. It wouldn't surprise me if the mechanism of developing muscle strength is not directly tied to the neuromuscular inhibition mechanism, which need to be trained separately. That is to say, even if you make your muscles twice as strong, if your body still "thinks" it can only handle your original strength without damage, then the inhibition mechanism would prevent you from actualizing the increased strength.

It reminds me of how I play with the fear edge when I train. Some fears are justified for your present ability -- I would never recommend any beginner take breakfalls from day one, no matter how physically competent they were, for example. But it is important to slowly remove those inhibitions as one's ability increases. The trick is always being in harmony between pushing the envelope and staying safe.

The other night we were doing a shomenuchi kokyunage where nage enters to the uchi side, then pivot throws uke while cupping uke's shoulder (of the arm that was doing shomen); uke must take a breakfall. This is definitely a confidence technique: if both uke and nage move in a committed fashion with good momentum, then the technique works well and feels great for both partners. I knew I could physically do it, but the fear was making me break my momentum and was very frustrating. Then when I was nage, sensei started talking to the class while I was in mid-throw. I thought, "oh sh*t!" and suddenly I had executed a perfect throw and my partner was grinning at me. Sensei looked in my direction and said, "...just like that!" The class laughed, and I replayed what Sensei said that had broken my concentration (and my phobia): "Move confidently!" BAM! "...just like that!"

My partner later said, "of course that throw was perfect -- sensei stopped you from getting in your own way!"

Breaking through inhibitions? Letting the ki flow better? Both sound plausible to me.

kujo
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Old 02-14-2003, 04:44 PM   #60
ikkainogakusei
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Quote:
Karen Kujo (Kujo) wrote:
Fascinating! I wonder if this is a matter of *recalibrating* the feedback mechanism. It wouldn't surprise me if the mechanism of developing muscle strength is not directly tied to the neuromuscular inhibition mechanism, which need to be trained separately. That is to say, even if you make your muscles twice as strong, if your body still "thinks" it can only handle your original strength without damage, then the inhibition mechanism would prevent you from actualizing the increased strength.
So please excuse for not giving a response to your whole post, I'm cheating myself out of time again and should be working on a paper.

Actually, just by stretching you are 'recalibrating' the feedback mechanism. You see the spindle 'organ' looks like a sqiuggly neuron wrapped around myofibers (or muscle tissue) an that spiraled neuron monitors the tension on that tissue. and the GTO is monitoring the tension in the tendons. When you stretch, your body reacts against the stretch by tightening, but the more you stretch the looser your muscle and tendons are, and the looser your spindle organs and GTO(s) are. By doing this, it allows you to generate more force over a longer period (or so the current established thought asserts)ot time. E.G. 90deg. of movement produces less work than 130deg. of movement.

An example of the existance of GTOs and spindles would be to flex your arm until your hand touches your shoulder, then contract your biceps muscle as hard as you can for as long as you can. Did you get a Charley Horse feeling? Thats because the biceps muscle was all scrunched up and those monitors couldn't respond like normal.

Another change that happens is that when you first begin to work a muscle on a regular basis, your brain is not accessing or recruiting -all- of your motor units for that muscle. As you keep stressing that muscle, your brain begins to wake up more of these motor units. If I remember correctly, the time period is six weeks of training before one truly begins to increase the size/strength of a muscle (though it is different for each muscle due to density and fiber type). Before that most of strength increase comes from motor unit recruitment.

So yeah, if your muscle is too tight, then the GTO and spindle would be too. Though it should be considered with a grain of salt. There are plenty of power lifters who put a lot of weight to this discovery, and there are a few exercise physiologists who say too much credit is given to these organs. The jury is still out in that regard.

Now, beyond that, these old-timers are accessing abilities not normally attributed to people like you and me. I don't think they have figured out how, but they have found that the upper limit placed on % unit recruitment without injury is out the window for them.

I would be interested in Functional MRI tests on novices vs. masters on the unbendable arm.
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Old 02-14-2003, 10:52 PM   #61
ikkainogakusei
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Quote:
Karen Kujo (Kujo) wrote:
It reminds me of how I play with the fear edge when I train.<snip> The other night we were doing a shomenuchi kokyunage<snip>I knew I could physically do it, but the fear was making me break my momentum and was very frustrating. Then when I was nage, sensei started talking to the class while I was in mid-throw. I thought, "oh sh*t!" and suddenly I had executed a perfect throw and my partner was grinning at me. Sensei looked in my direction and said, "...just like that!" The class laughed, and I replayed what Sensei said that had broken my concentration (and my phobia): "Move confidently!" BAM! "...just like that!"

My partner later said, "of course that throw was perfect -- sensei stopped you from getting in your own way!"

Breaking through inhibitions? Letting the ki flow better? Both sound plausible to me.
kujo
Sure. Another aspect is the 'you think too much' factor. Not you necessarily, we haven't trained together. Pardon me whilst I relate a story.

About a year ago I had gone back to the first Aikido dojo where I had trained. There was an uchideshi there who obviously didn't know me from Adam and seemed to have a look on his face like 'I'm going to tell you why you should train at this school.' At that moment an old friend had come up to say hello. He introduced me as his first teacher and since he was a well established yudansha, the uchideshi paused with an 'oh' expression. I think I was given a little too much deference, but I think that's what my friend found entertaining.

I explained that I have had to limit my training greatly because I was going to school, explaining the kinesiology thing. With that the deshi immedaitely asked me to give him a biomechanical breakdown of a movement he found difficult. To this I gave him the Kinesiologic version of 'You think too much'. It's called (by some) Bernstein's Paradox. He asked the question 'How can our brain hold so much information for so many movements?' He came up with the assertion of our brains having what he called

'coordinative structures'.

Okay this is an oversimplification but here goes: You begin to learn a task, and a significant part of learning that task is doing the task. While you are trying out all the possible movements to execute it, your brain is acting like Michelangelo to David and carving away all the things you don't need to do, until you develop this coordinative structure. Part of this is making neurological 'batch-files' which will execute the task without you having to actively think of every little element. E.G. when was the last time you thought, 'uh, walk...okay I need to pick up my right foot, equalize my balance while I swing my left leg...' and so on? Rather, you just think 'walk' and it happens.

So sometimes when you are doing a task which you are not confident you know, some of that batch file processing in your brain is hindered by this micromanagement your consciousness is asserting.

So I don't know this to be true, but it might be that the shock induced by your sensei, broke your active mind of it's control of your movement, and allowed your body to do its thing. As your partner said.

Mabe.

Food for thought.


Last edited by ikkainogakusei : 02-14-2003 at 10:56 PM.
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Old 02-21-2003, 06:26 AM   #62
Kelly Allen
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Jane

Your insights on muscular anatomy with respect to producing more power with less muscle explains alot. Can you also hypothisize using the same science how my 175 lb Sensei seems to be harder to push off a spot he's standing on the mat than it is for me to push my 300 lb brother out of his lazyboy recliner?

Also do you beleive that Reike is another manifestaion of KI. And is the phenominon that their practitioners produce such as much elevated heat in the hands and or parts of the body they are touching/near touching are proof that ki exists and can be manipulated?

The last paragraph wasn't spacifically for Jane. These are just a couple of things that came to my mind as I was reading these very interesting threads.
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Old 02-24-2003, 07:01 PM   #63
ikkainogakusei
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Quote:
Kelly Allen wrote:
Jane

Your insights on muscular anatomy with respect to producing more power with less muscle explains alot. Can you also hypothisize using the same science how my 175 lb Sensei seems to be harder to push off a spot he's standing on the mat than it is for me to push my 300 lb brother out of his lazyboy recliner?
Hi Kelly

Though I'd like to say I have an answer to your questions, there are so many unknowns. So I will risk scientific criticism by making a supposition or two.

Suppose your 300lb brother is in front of this lazyboy. Might we assume that he is standing with his feet parallel to his shoulders and also (both heels making the ends of a line) parallel to the chair? Then it is easy. Imagine standing a sheet of cardboard on an edge and then pushing against the flat planar side, it tips over easy.

Now, I have no way of knowing the circumstance in which your sensei had demonstrated this immobility. Was he standing the same way? Was he slightly different in stance? Was he 'dropped in center'?[/quote]
Also do you beleive that Reike is another manifestaion of KI. And is the phenominon that their practitioners produce such as much elevated heat in the hands and or parts of the body they are touching/near touching are proof that ki exists and can be manipulated?[/quote]
I can't give you an opinion on Raike as I know very little about it. I just ran a cursary search on the Library database here and it didn't come up with anything.

As for proof, I think it's all closer to evidence than proof. Proofs are being disproven every day. I like to try not to say something absolutely is, simply because I think it limits me, though I'll admit I have faltered in this.

Sorry I can't be more informative this time.

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Old 02-25-2003, 12:51 PM   #64
kensparrow
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[quote=I see a lot of confusion in people without extensive direct experience doing science in how they conceive science as merely today's new religion. I must forcefully disagree. Science is not a religion. Both science and religion are attempts to find larger patterns and meaning in reality. But the scientific method does not dictate necessary social behaviour or custom.[/QUOTE]Not that this has anything to do with Aikido but I have to disagree that science is not a religion and that the scientific method does not dictate social behavior. Isn't the scientific method a set of rules that anyone who wishes to call themselves a scientist must follow? Doesn't a set of rules that governs how we ask questions influence the answers we find? Doesn't science hold itself up as the only True Path to knowledge?

Godel proved (scientifically ) that any logical system is inherently incomplete and yet science seems to treat this much the way religion treats its internal paradoxes i.e. as a point of faith.

Sounds like religion to me.

Now I think I'll go search for answers in that trancendental moment just before nage dislocates my shoulder.
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Old 02-26-2003, 05:31 AM   #65
Kelly Allen
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Quote:
Jane Tao (ikkainogakusei) wrote:
Hi Kelly

Though I'd like to say I have an answer to your questions, there are so many unknowns. So I will risk scientific criticism by making a supposition or two.

Suppose your 300lb brother is in front of this lazyboy. Might we assume that he is standing with his feet parallel to his shoulders and also (both heels making the ends of a line) parallel to the chair? Then it is easy. Imagine standing a sheet of cardboard on an edge and then pushing against the flat planar side, it tips over easy.

Now, I have no way of knowing the circumstance in which your sensei had demonstrated this immobility. Was he standing the same way? Was he slightly different in stance? Was he 'dropped in center'?
Also do you beleive that Reike is another manifestaion of KI. And is the phenominon that their practitioners produce such as much elevated heat in the hands and or parts of the body they are touching/near touching are proof that ki exists and can be manipulated?[/quote]
I can't give you an opinion on Raike as I know very little about it. I just ran a cursary search on the Library database here and it didn't come up with anything.

As for proof, I think it's all closer to evidence than proof. Proofs are being disproven every day. I like to try not to say something absolutely is, simply because I think it limits me, though I'll admit I have faltered in this.

Sorry I can't be more informative this time.

[/quote]
Actually the analogy was my 300lb brother laying/sitting in his recliner. And my 175 lb. sensei standing normally, as though waiting for a bus or something to that effect. The only dropping of center was done mentally (projecting KI downward).

As for the Reike I may have spelled it wrong. Mike Lee can attest to my bad spelling. Sorry! Reike in short is a form of healing similar to Kiatsu. Not sure if I spelled that right either. But rather than useing the tips of one thumb or fingers. The practitioner uses the whole hand and does not necessarily touch the person he/she is attempting to heal. These practitioners are reputed to have their hands increase in tempuature dramatically while preforming their healing.
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Old 02-26-2003, 08:21 AM   #66
RichardWilliams
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Hi everyone,

The subject of Ki always brings out many different views, but you must excuse me if i get annoyed with particular takes on Ki.

I must disagree with Darren Gadd and anyone else that shares the view that good science shouldn't be used to explain Ki.

What i come across a lot is ignorance about Ki that is based on the fact that people only know things from hearsay. If anyone is interested in Ki (or as i prefer, Qi) then all they need to do is spend a little time researching it properly like anything else.

Maybe twenty years ago, this could not be done without travelling to the far east, but in the modern day of the internet and global book publishing it is really not an issue to find good information on Qi.

For example, if you were interested in the effects of gravity between two masses you would search the internet or buy a book on physics. Why not do the same for Qi?

...I think the answer to this is probably simple, ...people don't actually believe they can read about Qi the way they can read about a whole other bunch of scientifically accepted subjects.

But why is bringing 'science' into it so important. Well this is because modern society will only validate a principle, on mass, if it is explainable through science. Yes, religion, philosophy, ideology etc. are all important to some degree too, but not in the way science is.

Put simply, the effects of Qi and the science of Qi are measureable, and what is more HAVE been measured by many different people from many different disciplines. It is not a matter for belief just as the force of gravity is not a matter of belief. It is more a matter of education and removing hearsay and the ignorance that follows it.

Please note, I'm not trying to cause offence to anyone though. I actually believe a lot more of us should become better aware of what is actually available to us through Qi training and understand the considerable long term health benefits it presents. It is something we can and should all benefit from.

Now on a complete tangent, hi Karen Kujo.. in one of your entries you quote a science writer who turned away from Buddhism. A fact about Buddhism i didn't know until recently is that the real teachings of the original Buddha have (supposedly.. this is from someone elses writing) been lost or rather, misinterpreted and abused.

That is, the real thoughts of the Buddha was that you should be as agnostic as possible. The word agnostic in this context really means totally questioning everything and not simply taking all presented answers as fact.

That is, Buddhism isn't so much about the individual, more about everything. It is more about constantly asking new questions rather than settling for answers already obtained.

What happenen early on in the history of Buddhism, as i understand it, is that the answers to the questions we were all supposed to ask were filled in by the religious leaders of the time. The reason being is that to maintain control of a population, you can't have individuals constantly questioning things for themselves. It was important, so they thought, to provide a suitable set of answers. Unfortunately this has meant that the real teaching of the original Buddha has been lost over time, with many variations of Buddhism being created as many different individuals present their own slant on the original concept.

I wouldn't describe myself as a Buddhist, but i would say that Buddhism is a lot closer to science than many people think because it is ultimately about asking new questions.

I guess now i should sit back and see what trouble i've caused with my words.

R.

Last edited by RichardWilliams : 02-26-2003 at 08:25 AM.
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Old 02-26-2003, 02:02 PM   #67
ikkainogakusei
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Hi Kelly


Quote:
Kelly Allen wrote:
Actually the analogy was my 300lb brother laying/sitting in his recliner. And my 175 lb. sensei standing normally, as though waiting for a bus or something to that effect. The only dropping of center was done mentally (projecting KI downward).
Uh, I guess a further explanation of why it can't be easily explained is in order. You see we could do a biomechanical study of the stance your sensei takes, but it would require close visual inspection, and likely some measurement. If he was acted upon (maybe pushed?), and we had a few highly expensive force plates in order to measure each foot, and the pressure exerted and distributed, we might be able to see a small portion of what goes on. However we couldn't so easily see the torsion on each individual joint throughout the body and how he responds.

What about from a neuromotor control perspective? Well EMG monitoring can give a peek at what some muscle fibers do within a muscle, but are not effective at measuring the whole muscle, so distribution of force through muscles in response might be a task. Then we could try a functional MRI and examine the brain's response, or if we can find a really big FMRI machine maybe we could examine the functional responses of all the cells in the body, but I don't know if that's been done before.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I probably couldn't get enough information over the internet to give you an appropriate response. Certainly, I would love to get the funding to do studies on many of the mysteries of Ki, but that'd be tough, and expensive.
Quote:
Kelly Allen wrote:
As for the Reike I may have spelled it wrong. Mike Lee can attest to my bad spelling. Sorry! Reike in short is a form of healing similar to Kiatsu. Not sure if I spelled that right either. But rather than useing the tips of one thumb or fingers. The practitioner uses the whole hand and does not necessarily touch the person he/she is attempting to heal. These practitioners are reputed to have their hands increase in tempuature dramatically while preforming their healing.
The only study I know of was done by an elementary school aged girl who had a blind test done. She had people put their hands through a blind and asked them which hand was being sent chi energy. The correct response was given less than 40% of the time. This is less than a chance guess. It was published in the Journal of the American Medical Association. Now, I don't know who was 'sending' the chi, and I don't know the agenda of the person judging the scientific accuracy of the study, but this is the only study I know of.

There are people who specialize in integrating CAMs (complimentary and alternative medicines) into the standard treatment of patients who can afford it, but my background is kinesiology, so I am not as familiar with the CAM application.

Wish I could help further.

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Old 02-27-2003, 01:53 AM   #68
Kelly Allen
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No problem Jane. You made your statement well enough for me to make a point. Ki hasn't been studied enough to come to scientific conclusions. I'm sure that if studies were made very interesting results would manifest themselves. Untill such time that this happens Ki will be a very mysterious phenomenon indeed.
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Old 02-27-2003, 07:54 AM   #69
RichardWilliams
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err, Kelly, Ki HAS been studied enough to come to some conclusions.

It is certainly NOT a very mysterious phenomenon. Just as i said in my earlier post, all you need to do is become better educated. The information is already out there!

R.
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Old 02-27-2003, 10:25 AM   #70
ikkainogakusei
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uh...wait...

Quote:
Kelly Allen wrote:
No problem Jane. You made your statement well enough for me to make a point. Ki hasn't been studied enough to come to scientific conclusions. I'm sure that if studies were made very interesting results would manifest themselves. Untill such time that this happens Ki will be a very mysterious phenomenon indeed.
Uh, I think it might be more accurate to say that -=I=- haven't studied Ki enough to tell you of the scientific conclusions that may have been made.

I did mention a couple studies which I have been exposed to, that have had interesting results.

I wonder though, if once something is scientifically defined that people will no longer put the explained into the category of Ki (e.g inordinant strength exhibited by older masters)?

My apologies if somehow I misrepresented myself as an expert on the subject of Ki.

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Old 02-28-2003, 02:22 AM   #71
Kelly Allen
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Quote:
Richard Williams (RichardWilliams) wrote:
err, Kelly, Ki HAS been studied enough to come to some conclusions.

It is certainly NOT a very mysterious phenomenon. Just as i said in my earlier post, all you need to do is become better educated. The information is already out there!

R.
This subject is of great intrest to me so if you know of spacific research material I would like to know where to find it. Every thing I have see on Ki has been directly related to concept not research.
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Old 02-28-2003, 04:33 AM   #72
PeterR
 
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Quote:
Kelly Allen wrote:
This subject is of great intrest to me so if you know of spacific research material I would like to know where to find it. Every thing I have see on Ki has been directly related to concept not research.
A big me too here. Lot's of scientific studies showing the validity of some accupuncture, some herbal medicine and a whole heap of studies where the effect was marginal at best. Where they have been shown to work there are quite good theories beside Ki as to why.

However, when we get to Ki and rigorous science the former falls flat on its face. I understand Ki as concept, would actually like it backed up by research but its a total red herring to say
Quote:
It is certainly NOT a very mysterious phenomenon. Just as i said in my earlier post, all you need to do is become better educated. The information is already out there


Really not interested it playing I know something you don't.

Please quote one scientific study that supports Qi. And by that I mean reproducable and not anecdotes.

The progress of science is measured by the fall of the pillars of superstition.

Last edited by PeterR : 02-28-2003 at 04:36 AM.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 02-28-2003, 08:07 AM   #73
RichardWilliams
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Peter, please try not to be so hostile. Please do not simply label my quote as a red herring without bothering to see if what i said is correct or not, or without waiting for all of the facts!

You appear to be jumping to the conclusion that i'm talking rubbish without waiting for me to add to what i've already said.

And if you'd have read my first post you would (possibly) have realised that i want to share my sources with everybody who is interested as better understanding of Qi would be a great benefit to us all. So PLEASE do not accuse me of playing 'i know something you don't'!

Ok, you would like me to quote one scientific study that supports Qi... how about several quotes of studies that support Qi, from different angles and different disciplines? This is something i will gladly do.

I am currently at work and do not have this information to hand, but this weekend i will add a further post. I hope you can wait until then.

The thing about the discussion of Qi is that there are many different view points about many different manifestations of Qi. In the martial arts like Aikido, Hapkido, Tae Kwon-Do, and Karate, from my experience, the Qi argument takes the form of using mysterious powers to overcome an opponent. Of course, this approach to Qi is riddled with myth both old and modern. There is a lot said about Qi from this angle that is blatantly untrue.

The subject of Qi is also addressed in Chinese arts such as Tai Chi. Here the understanding of Qi becomes a little more refined, and (in my opinion) a lot more accurate.

Qi is also (much more widely) addressed from the angle of health, longevity, self-healing and healing of others. It is in this area that by far the most complete work has been done on better understanding Qi. What i've found is that if you read as much as you can about Qi and healing (for example, read a good book on Qigong) you will begin to develop a firm basis for your understanding of what Qi really is. With this understanding you can then return to the many questions that started your interest in Qi, such as the questions of martial application. The answers can then become much more focused and accurate and the myths can be sorted out from the reality.

Personally, i have read quite a lot of work on this subject from different disciplines. I have also recently begun practising Qigong. I can testify to the real physical changes that take place in the human body through Qi work.

Qi is a truly fascinating thing. I know i don't have anyway near all the answers, and i am still trying to learn more and more, but from where i've reached at the moment i know it is something that must be treated with the correct degree of respect.

For me, my initial interest was in trying to understand the mysterious feats that i kept reading about. Perhaps even a little bit of wild fantasy that i may even be able to repeat those feats myself (now that's stupid, i know).

However, as i've read more and more, Qi has become a very simple thing, along with a very simple goal. For me, i now wish to forget all the martial stuff that once inticed me to this subject. My interest has turned into: Practise Qigong, improve my health, learn how Qi can be used heal others, and hopefully live a longer, fitter, happier life. That's not a bad set of ambitions to have is it?

R.
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Old 02-28-2003, 09:32 AM   #74
RichardWilliams
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Hi, me again,

This is a footnote to my last post. So that we know we are on the same page here Peter, i would like to add the following.

There are several occasions in Aikido where someone performs Kokyu Nage on another person, and this person is thrown without any physical contact.

In some instances (not that many in my neck of the woods i'm glad to say) someone will say that the person was thrown because of, in some way, Ki. Of course, to all of us with sensible reasoning minds this is nonsense. It is probably nonsense to you, and it is certainly nonsense to me. The fact that it is nonsense to me should be noted though.

It is not because i regard Ki and the use of Ki to be something mythical. It is simply because i think i have a fairly good grip on Ki. I know Ki (Qi) is real and is not this.

In the case where someone falls over without physical contact then this is simply explained by the fact that the person who was thrown knew if they didn't get out of the way they would get clobbered.

The problem with this assertion that Ki was somehow involved in the throw is highly damaging though to the sensible discussion of Ki. People will quite rightly say Ki is not the thing responsible for the throw, but what will then typically happen is that they go too far the other way and decide that all effects attributable to Ki must also be nonsense and that Ki must be some non-real mystical thing. It is a shame when this happens.

For me, i try to look at each thing on its own and look at all of the factors involved. Is there another explanation... how does it fit with other things i know about Qi that i know to be correct...

Basically what i'm saying is i'm certainly NOT certifying as true everything that people say about what is possible with Ki. In Dojos and Dojangs there are a lot of bad ideas associated with Ki. Unfortunately these bad ideas simply push the sensible reasoning student away from the correct understanding of Ki. The boundaries between what we are validating and what we are not must be clearly defined. If you primarily approach Qi from the internal, healing related fields (like Qigong) then from my experience you tend to find the sane, sensible, well argued and scientifically validated answers. If you approach the subject from external, martial application you tend to find almost entirely myth. This is an important distinction in understanding Qi or Ki.

R.
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Old 02-28-2003, 10:02 AM   #75
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My post on re-reading came out a little harsh. A few years ago I came across a "scientific study" on Ki and was astounded by the circularity of the argument. I've read a few since then and all are very similar and I've always wondered do these people really believe what they say or ...

By way of example. Breathing exercises based on Ki/Qi improve health, therefore it is proven that Ki/Qi improves health. Well no, breathing exercises improve health.

A quick search of the internet will give you an article which claims Qi alters the conformation of certain proteins. This is great news but the instruments they use for the measurements are not capable of measuring the degree of interpretation. It sounds pretty impressive on first read though.

Don't get me wrong. I run to the local acupuncturist to deal with my aches and pains. The last time I went he couldn't help me and sent me to a chiropracter. All hospitals here have an in house acupunturist and some have a herbalist, they work with modern medicine and Ki/Qi is intimately involved in what they do.

I see Ki as a way of describing the physical world much as the West used Humors. I know modern medicine can not deal with everything and even recently herbal medicines have yielded potent drugs.

About 20 years ago a very smart Biochemist who happened to be Chinese was left with a horrible dilema - his son was dying of stomach cancer and the chemo therepy wasn't doing that much good. He took his son off Western drugs and went to a herbalist. The kid was dead within two weaks - he had a slim chance with the chemo. That was real close to home - I knew the father had met the son. You don't tend to hear the other side of the coin.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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