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Old 10-29-2000, 04:41 AM   #26
ian
 
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Very valid points. Does it come down to the fact that uke is not competing with uke and so is 'dumbing down' his own training to allow nage/tori to achieve smooth technique. i.e. although you talk about a counter strike, that is probably not what I would do if someone was taking e.g. ikkyo - I would use their own ikkyo against them for a counter technique. However we all have to learn in the first place.

Can we say what a realistic reaction to these techniques would be? I think 'deflecting' rather than 'blocking' is very valid. But peoples actual reaction may vary o an atemi. Some attackers focus on one strike, others do combinations. Some will want to grapple, whilst others will want to back off or strike.

I think one benefit that aikido has, at least in the UK, is that in most real situations people are completely suprised at your body movement, even the moving off centre line.
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Old 10-29-2000, 08:32 AM   #27
George S. Ledyard
 
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Atemi

Quote:
ian wrote:
[B
Some attackers focus on one strike, others do combinations. Some will want to grapple, whilst others will want to back off or strike.[/b]
If your technique is going to work it shouldn't matter what the preference of the attacker is. You aren't going to try in advance to intuit what this guy prefers and then adjust your technique to that.

You control the interaction by initiating the technique thereby drwing the attack at your own time, not his. You move directly to the center and take it. The attacker may have a preference for combination attack but he won't get a chance to throw more than one shot before he's going down.

An exemple of this is a story about Gozo Shioda Sensei that was told to me by Clint George Sensei. Shioda Sensei and some students were doing a demo for some American servicemen after the war. The Americans were derisive and said that their boxer could take an Aikido guy. One of Shioda sensei's students tried to do technique on the boxer but was unsuccessful and was getting hit. Shioda Sensei decided he needed to uphold the honor of Aikido and stepped in himself. The boxer approached him in the standard boxing stance. Shioda Sensei ignored the front hand jab, slipped inside and grabbed the back hand and drove it straight back and down into shihonage. The boxer, whose bread and butter is the jab, cross, never threw the second shot as it was already too late.

People think that omote and ura are separate principles that are used based on how the attacker comes in. Actually, the initial movement is always the irimi, the entering movement. It is only after the two centers connect through the irimi that turning becomes possible (at least against any attacker that knows what he is doing). Ellis Amdur Sensei some very interesting things to say on this subject in his new book. Check out:
http://www.ellisamdur.com/duelingwithosensei

One of my friends is an 8th Dan in Hapkido. He once taught a class on kick defense at our school. Basically he said that the real defense against kicks was to move decisively straight into the center of the attacker. Any kick that is in process is jammed. So you don't have to have diferent movements based on the angles of the incoming attack, differnt techniques for kicks that are low or high. The technique is to move straight in and strike the center. Technique is created by whatever response the attacker has to your entry, not your technique being in response to his attack.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
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Old 10-29-2000, 08:54 AM   #28
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Re: Striking and Blocking

Quote:
Magma wrote:
One side says that if you are fully committed to the attack, then any movement toward a block or a guard weakens your resolve, your power, or your intent. The other side of the argument says that this strike and block idea is exactly what the good fighters strive for.
IMHO
The arts such as Wing Chun, Jeet Kun Do, Kali / Silat that utilize the simultaneous defense / offense principle of the strike and deflection being at the same moment if not the same movement are not generally oriented toward maximum physical power but rather on precise targeting. These strikes are usually finger strikes directed to the eyes or throat designed to create either dysfunction or to crush the guard of the attacker. It is the same thing in Aikido. These strikes are seldom used as an end in themselves but rather as components of another technique. Power is secondary to speed and accuracy and smooth transition into the technique being attempted. The strike can't be a separate piece but is rather an integral part of the movement.

This issue of power comes up a lot in Japanese martial arts. The whole Japanese martial concept is related to their ideal of swordsmanship. One cut is supposed to be the ideal in winning against an opponent. That ideal permeates Japanese martial arts. If you look at Shotokan Karate for example, its ideal is one blow, one death. Even Aikido, which is very flowery in practice, has the ideal of Katsu hayabi or "instant victory". The fight should be over the instant we touch (before that if the opponent recognizes what is going on). That is all from sword.

Aikido attacks are completely based on this concept. Practice trains you to deal with the totally commited attack that is designed to finish you off in one shot. The problem here is that trained martial artisits don't generally attack that way. They keep a bit in reserve until they are sure they have the opening for the finishing blow. Only when they are sure that they can finish the fight with that definitive blow will they commit 100%. So Aikido people are often not prepared for the types of attacks they get from people who train in other arts.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
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Old 10-29-2000, 10:05 AM   #29
ian
 
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Excellent replies - I totally agree with the idea that you can't know what someone's response is going to be.

In this way I feel some aikido training is inappropriate if you say, 'well uke will do this' unless you know what to do when uke doesn't do that. However I do think you can train yourself to respond to someone changing their weight, posture, arms, once you have initiated your technique.

Also, I fully agree that there is a good chance of taking at least one blow.

I feel atemis are essential (it stops an opponent knowing exactly what you're doing for one), and should be practised. For this reason I would expect uke to deflect an atemi (otherwise aikido would be quite painful). If the atemi is not hard, it may not be neccessary for a 'good' 'block' as it is just for protection during training and not mainly for ukes benefit.

However in close situations, even a weak 'block' has benefits, because if you get used to doing them, as long as you are moving your body out of the way of an attack a weak 'block' allows you to get contact. (and you can do these very fast. - as mentioned before, you shouldn't expect to be just covering your face, anywhere that is exposed you should be prepared to deflect/block).

As far as seeing goes - I'm not really sure if it is the most important thing. I think I would rather cover my eyes with a 'block' and know I have contact with his limbs, than be able to see a punch coming straight for me.

On that note, has anyone ever tried Aikido in total darkness? Maybe its more realistic?
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