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Old 12-23-2002, 07:09 PM   #1
Mark B
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Yoshinkan

I have been doing some reading and was wondering. It seems that Yoshinkan may have retained a little more of the martial side of Aikido. Does anyone have some experience they could share? Thanks
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Old 12-23-2002, 07:19 PM   #2
Mark B
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I am sorry. I should have said as compared to other styles. Please no mudslinging. Just honest opinions based on experience.
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Old 12-23-2002, 07:24 PM   #3
Thalib
 
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I'm not from Yoshinkan.

But, from my point of view, Yoshinkan's training is quite militaristic, discipline- wise that is. That's why it fits in perfectly with the armed forces and police departments.

When I have to die by the sword, I will do so with honor.
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Old 12-23-2002, 09:07 PM   #4
aikido_fudoshin
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I practice Yoshinkan, and after learning about Aikikai and other styles I can see why its viewed as militaristic. My dojo doesnt focus too heavily on ki, and while the spiritual side of Aikido remains important and essential, its not focused upon in great detail. Kihon Dosa is the back bone of Yoshinkan. There is very strict form and a proper way to move your body. The whole idea behind the kihon dosa is to develop the proper muscle strength (in muscles that are not commonly used) so you are able to move yourself in a balanced, stable, and controlled manner. The flowing and harmony parts are still there but Yoshinkan focuses on controling yourself before you can control others. Essentially it teaches us to learn how to move your body in the most effective way when performing every technique.

Yoshinkan Aikido is a physically demanding art. For example, try standing in hiriki no yosei ichi until your muscles give out or performing continuous kihon dosa. You will probably find that high ranked Yoshinkan practioners have very strong legs. Again, the most important reason for developing this muscle strength is so you will be able to control yourself. It is not ment to be used on an opponent. Once the proper strength is developed you will be able to move more effectively and in a more relaxed manner.

So, what really sets Yoshinkan apart from other styles is its focus on form and creating a physically stable, balanced, and controlled body through the kihon dosa.
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Old 12-23-2002, 10:19 PM   #5
JW
 
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Quote:
Bryan Siekierko (aikido_fudoshin) wrote:
So, what really sets Yoshinkan apart from other styles is its focus on form and creating a physically stable, balanced, and controlled body through the kihon dosa.
That sounds like Iwama-style, which I have had very limited experience in (but none at all in Yoshinkan).

So what are some major differences between Iwama and Yoshinkan?

--JW
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Old 12-24-2002, 02:59 PM   #6
Steven
 
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Bryan,

Very well said. I would however also like to add that before kihon dosa, there is kamae. If you can't move in and out of kamae without falling on your face, then kihon dosa is going to be very difficult. The Yoshinkan kamae teaches from day one the three principles that makeup "KI" or the mastery of balance as Shioda Kancho describes it in "Total Aikido". They are:

o Chushin-Ryoku: The power of the center line.

Keeping your center line straight.

o Shucho-Ryoku: Focused Power

The power that is developed by unifying

the whold body.

o Kokyu-Ryoku: Breath Power

Bringing together the sensitivity,

breathiing, and rhythm into a focused

power.

This, in conjunction with kihon dosa and kihon waza is what makes Yoshinkan different. It is the way we teach Aikido. A very disciplined and structored system that does not require the use of weapons to teach these principles.

... Cheers ...
Quote:
Bryan Siekierko (aikido_fudoshin) wrote:
I practice Yoshinkan, and after learning about Aikikai and other styles I can see why its viewed as militaristic. My dojo doesnt focus too heavily on ki, and while the spiritual side of Aikido remains important and essential, its not focused upon in great detail. Kihon Dosa is the back bone of Yoshinkan. There is very strict form and a proper way to move your body. The whole idea behind the kihon dosa is to develop the proper muscle strength (in muscles that are not commonly used) so you are able to move yourself in a balanced, stable, and controlled manner. The flowing and harmony parts are still there but Yoshinkan focuses on controling yourself before you can control others. Essentially it teaches us to learn how to move your body in the most effective way when performing every technique.

Yoshinkan Aikido is a physically demanding art. For example, try standing in hiriki no yosei ichi until your muscles give out or performing continuous kihon dosa. You will probably find that high ranked Yoshinkan practioners have very strong legs. Again, the most important reason for developing this muscle strength is so you will be able to control yourself. It is not ment to be used on an opponent. Once the proper strength is developed you will be able to move more effectively and in a more relaxed manner.

So, what really sets Yoshinkan apart from other styles is its focus on form and creating a physically stable, balanced, and controlled body through the kihon dosa.
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Old 12-25-2002, 02:11 PM   #7
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Oh yes, kamae! The single most important aspect of Yoshinkan Aikido. Its unbelievable what it can teach you. Although there is so much to learn from it, I believe one of the most important points it teaches us is the more relaxed you are the more powerful you become. Not only physically strong, but strong mentally aswell. I think much of this comes through confidence, and the ability to control your pshycological being. The most amazing part of kamae is how this inner strength radiates off of a person once its well developed. I had the opportunity to stand in kamae once with Robert Mustard sensei, although it was brief, I felt as though I was being blown backwards just by standing across from him. I really have no other words to describe it. It made me realize that kamae is much more than just a powerful stance.
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Old 12-25-2002, 02:14 PM   #8
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sorry: pshycological = psychological.

Thats better.
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Old 12-25-2002, 05:59 PM   #9
diesel
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Any pictures of the kihon dosa that your talking of? Online? I would like to see examples.. I am familiar with the basic kamea in yoshinkan.
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Old 12-25-2002, 06:49 PM   #10
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Quote:
Eric Roku (diesel) wrote:
Any pictures of the kihon dosa that your talking of? Online? I would like to see examples.. I am familiar with the basic kamea in yoshinkan.
Your best source would be Dynamic Aikido or Total Aikido. Or, visit a Yoshinkan school to see and do it first hand.

... cheers ...
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Old 12-26-2002, 11:23 AM   #11
Nathan Pereira
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Starting to realize after all those years of endlessly standing in kamae till my legs shook and I felt like puking that everything is just degrees and variations of kamae.

I find myself more and more saying to beginners just do kamae but in a lower posture or with your palms facing up. The feeling in every movement should feel just like kamae. This is so easy yet i still mess it up. oh well more sweating and shaking in kamae i guess.

I have seen a few stills on-line of kihon dosa but not all the movements. Usually the same one for some reason.


______________________________

"Its just a ride" - Bill Hicks
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Old 12-26-2002, 01:51 PM   #12
Eric Joyce
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I think Steve said it best. Another book I would recommend is the Instructors Course on Yoshinkan Aikido. I have this in addition to the others and it really breaks the movements down. I like the fact that I am taught and given a solid foundation. This really helps in executing techniques. Nothing like a good strong kamae eh Steve?
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Old 12-26-2002, 02:05 PM   #13
Steven
 
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Quote:
Nothing like a good strong kamae eh Steven?
Eric -- I wouldn't know. I'm still working on mine. LOL!

Instructors course book?!? I don't think I've seen that one.
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Old 12-28-2002, 12:46 AM   #14
locknthrow
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I live in the western part of Tennessee..Between Memphis and Nashville. Anyone know of any Yoshinkan ppl here? Even if it just a former student?
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Old 12-28-2002, 10:27 AM   #15
Steven
 
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Quote:
Mike Iainttellin (locknthrow) wrote:
I live in the western part of Tennessee..Between Memphis and Nashville. Anyone know of any Yoshinkan ppl here? Even if it just a former student?
Mike,

The Chudokan Aikido Federation whiich is located in Windsor, Canada and headed by Yoshinkan Rokudan Kevin Blok, has an affiliated school in Tennessee. However, this does not mean they are teaching Yoshinkan Aikido.

The following is from the Chudokan website: (http://www.mnsi.net/~chudo/)

Mid South Karate and Aikido Dojo
6041 Mount Moriah
Memphis, Tennessee, USA, 38115

7277 Winchester Road
Memphis, Tennessee, USA, 38125
Phone: (901) 757-0985

Instructors:
Jeff Tackett - 2nd Dan
Jeff Mullen - 1st Dan
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Old 12-29-2002, 11:18 PM   #16
locknthrow
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Hey thanks alot!

I'll follow that up!

Mike
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Old 12-30-2002, 06:52 AM   #17
Eric Joyce
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Hey Steve,

I hear you, kamae can be a challenge. The book is called "The Official Yoshinkan Aikido Training Manual - Yoshinkan Aikido Instruction Staff" It is compiled under the supervision of Kyoichi Inoue Dojo-Cho. It's awesome!! It is like the book Total Aikido, but with more explanation and detail. A must have. You can get it on AikidoJournal.com

Peace.
Quote:
Steven Miranda (Steven) wrote:
Eric -- I wouldn't know. I'm still working on mine. LOL!

Instructors course book?!? I don't think I've seen that one.
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Old 12-30-2002, 07:52 AM   #18
Bruce Baker
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Be carefull not to surround yourself in a blanket that says everything you can possibly learn is from people who practice in one style of Aikido or in even in one martial art, it will take away from your understanding of how vast a puzzle martial arts is, and where Aikido fits into the puzzle.

That said.

Some of you do get the differences of styles brought into Yoshinkan from other martial arts training, and how the variations of Aikido itself is varied upon in the variation of yet another spin off of aikido students.

I guess it is alright to give a toot on your horn that Yoshinkan is great, and you love it, but don't toot that horn too long, or you will get a ticket for disturbing the peace.

Point being, there are other people out there in the neighbor hood, and some respect for them would be not to keep tooting that horn until the police arrive or you drive them to bring out the shotgun to take a couple potshots at you.

Funny, I don't hear Aikikai this, and Aikikai that ... just discussions about how aikido has so many variations, and different ways that people train to get to the same place?

I hope my point is taken, and not misunderstood.

Last time I got into it with someone tooting the horn, I walked up to the car and told them that if they continued to toot more than two toots, I would have to break their fingers. They still tooted their horn, but they were driving with the windows closed?

It always made me laugh to see this resistence to harmony .... on both sides of the scale?

Maybe that is why the more aiki methods seem to be more appealing in my old age.

Don't get caught up in just tooting Yoshinkan, it is a big world out there.
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Old 12-30-2002, 08:53 AM   #19
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Frankly, Bruce, I don't see anyone "tooting their horn" regarding Yoshinkan aikido. What I've seen here in this thread has been a very civil, good-natured discussion on people's thoughts about Shioda sensei's approach to the art. To me, at least, the discussion so far has been quite interesting and I hope it continues in the manner above.

Just curious -- have you trained with Yoshinkan people, Bruce?

-- Jun

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Old 12-30-2002, 09:40 AM   #20
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Eric - I see from the book details on aikidojournal.com that the Yoshinkan Instructors course book is multi-lingual. Do you read Japanese, or do you recommend it for the English as well?

Thanks

Justin

Justin McCarthy
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Old 12-30-2002, 09:57 AM   #21
Steven
 
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Hi Justin,

The book that Eric is referring to is written in both English and Japanese. It is the only format it comes in. I'll also point out this book is very entry level. So don't expect to find advanced technqiues in it. It is very similar to Dynamic and Total Aikido.

Eric ... I do have a copy of this book but have my own mixed review of it. Basically, I don't like the layout. Too many page turns for a single technique. However the content is excellent.

I will add that this is good reference, as well as Total Aikido, but does not replace being in a dojo with an instructor to explain and show the principle. Practice, practice, practice.

Jun ... domo arigato mi amigo!

... Peace ...

Last edited by Steven : 12-30-2002 at 09:59 AM.
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Old 12-30-2002, 10:19 AM   #22
E.J. Nella
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In my small amount of experience with Yoshinkan, it seems that the difference is mainly in the instruction of the basic techniques. Once the Yoshinkan practitioner starts moving during Ron Dori, it's very difficult to tell that it is different from any other Aiki "style". I said this before to Miranda Sensei; if I had found Yoshinkan before the Iwama/Aikikai style, I would have fallen in love with it just as hard!

As far as it being more Martial, I don't know. I think that it just depends on the teacher more than the style.

E.J.
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Old 12-31-2002, 08:11 AM   #23
Eric Joyce
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Justin -No I don't speak Japanese, but I am interested in learning a little bit for a trip to Japan one day.

Bruce - You gotta chill out dude, we are not saying that Yosinkan Aikido is "the one and only way" to true aikido. I (and my fellow Yoshinkan practioners and people interested in Yoshinkai aikido) are just explaining the style we practice - nothing more, nothing less. I also practice some Aikikai and it too has some very wonderful aspects (nothing like variety)

EJ - As for Yoshinkai being more martial, your right in your assumption that it is based pretty much on the teacher. I have had both sides of teachers in Yoshinkai (some strict, some more laid back). I think sometimes when someone sees Yoshinkan practioners doing the kihon dosa with the commands, as well as the way we emphasize correct posture, one could walk away that it is as "militaristic". But that's not the case.

Just my 2 bits worth.

Eric Joyce
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Old 12-31-2002, 08:38 AM   #24
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I've only had a few classes in Yoshinkan aikido including a class with Inoue sensei at the Aiki Expo and a few classes with a 5th dan from Toronto. Although I personally shirk away from the step-by-step method of teaching, I found the approach to be very technically sound in explaning many principles of aikido.

As far as the "militaristic" thing goes, I've had it explained to me that the Yoshinkan approach is geared towards "communicat[ing] vast amounts of aikido information to a very large group of people in a short amount of time" -- the kind of classes necessary, say, for the Tokyo Riot Police...

-- Jun

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Old 12-31-2002, 09:48 AM   #25
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I still do believe that Yoshinkan kept a strong budo aspect of Osensei.

My sensei studied with Yoshinkan before and did apply Yoshinkan's sytem in our training, at first. But then, since most of the students have the discipline from within, he saw no longer the need to enforce them.

Actually, the difference between styles are in the method of teaching. I do like the Yoshinkan system on certain occasions, but at other occasions it might turn people away. Used to being a military nut (still a bit), I did like the Yoshinkan system.

Many observed that Shioda Gozo sensei is a reflection of Osensei's earlier days, and Tohei Koichi sensei as Osensei's later days.

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