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Old 12-08-2002, 08:01 AM   #1
Bruce Baker
Dojo: LBI Aikikai/LBI ,NJ
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using improper word terms

All right ... we have all done this, used japanese terms for techniques, or use japanese terms to describe practices of our aikido, I say, stop it!

If you are going to quote a japanese term, put the english equivelent in italics, or vice versa. Too many times I have seen Knife hand overhead strike to the side of the head area, shomenuchi, improperly displayed or incorrectly describe, and maybe it is time to either learn the correct meaning or correct way to teach the meaning. It sure ain't happening in most dojo's, most people don't even understand how to properly shape their hands for knifehand strike let alone how to use it?

Maybe the common codes of training are simple if a group of people use them enough, but the only way to be sure you are getting your point across is to talk in the particular language you are writing in, and if that means Italics,or parenthethis, or even common descriptive prose, then that should be the case.

Or should we each talk in the venacular of our homeland?

<Hey, you! Snake in the GRASS! Get ov'ah here! Didn't your mama or daddy teach you right?

You looking to square dance with rodeo bull, or are you just dancin' in the dark by da' light of da' moon?>

Or, it means, "Come here, you are having trouble doing the technique. What is your problem?"

Stop chopping the verbiage, and get some explanatory interogatory so I can get some meat on this sandwich, huh?

Can we do that ?

It doesn''t have to be the prose of my grandfather who had a 3rd grade education but learned from the school of hard knocks, nor should we need to use the old style undo physical abuse of the old days.

In our education of aikido, we certainly could benefit by clearly learning and getting correction from each other by trying to describe in our written endeavors what we pursue in our practice.

Or is it time to show the pictures of hand and fist forms so that they are translated into the correct teaching with the lost words of practice?

Sorry, another pet pieve. We really need to work on proper punches and strikes to make a more effective practice.
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Old 12-08-2002, 08:05 AM   #2
Bruce Baker
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By the way, how many of you know how to make a knife hand, a fist, a knuckle fist, a proper use for Eagle Claw, cupped hand, or use of open fingers verses closed fingers?

Yeah, it is important ... if you want to explore the depth to which Aikido will lead you in its martial capabilities.
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Old 12-08-2002, 08:11 AM   #3
Arianah
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Re: using improper word terms

Quote:
Bruce Baker wrote:
Too many times I have seen Knife hand overhead strike to the side of the head area, shomenuchi, improperly displayed or incorrectly describe, and maybe it is time to either learn the correct meaning or correct way to teach the meaning.
Um... I think you're describing yokomenuchi. If you're going to use a term, try to use it correctly, will ya?!

Sarah, feeling playful today

Out of clutter, find simplicity.
From discord, find harmony.
In the middle of difficulty, lies opportunity.
-Albert Einstein
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Old 12-08-2002, 11:23 AM   #4
erikmenzel
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Re: using improper word terms

Quote:
Bruce Baker wrote:
All right ... we have all done this, used japanese terms for techniques, or use japanese terms to describe practices of our aikido, I say, stop it!
Japanese is the lingua franca used for aikido techniques and principles, whether you like it or not. Go train in a non-english speaking country and you will still be able to communicate about the techniques using the normal japanese terms.
Quote:
Maybe the common codes of training are simple if a group of people use them enough, but the only way to be sure you are getting your point across is to talk in the particular language you are writing in, and if that means Italics,or parenthethis, or even common descriptive prose, then that should be the case.
Unfortunately you are forgetting that we are writting about aikido, so using part of the language of aikido is just normal.

Second, not all people on the forum are native speakers of the english language.

Third, all languages are different. Some ideas and words can easily be translated as others are difficult and only allow an partial and incomplete translation (That is why the french say : Traduire, c'est mourir!)
Quote:
In our education of aikido, we certainly could benefit by clearly learning and getting correction from each other by trying to describe in our written endeavors what we pursue in our practice.
So what is wrong with doing that in a manner such that you learn the worldwide used terms as well? As an example: I visited a seminar with Donovan Wait Sensei here in the Netherlands this weekend. Due to the use of japanese names even the people that didnt speak english were able to understand his teachings and instructions.

Erik Jurrien Menzel
kokoro o makuru taisanmen ni hirake
Personal:www.kuipers-menzel.com
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Old 12-08-2002, 11:59 AM   #5
Jim23
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Re: using improper word terms

Quote:
Bruce Baker wrote:
It sure ain't happening in most dojo's,
In most dojo's ... what? In their changing rooms?

Jim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 12-08-2002, 01:24 PM   #6
Williamross77
 
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I think Mr Baker is saying if you use the japanese term please qualify it with the vernacular incase your wrong. I am confused about the shomenuchi to the side of the head comment, but in some places i have seen yoyumenuchi to mean the direction of the impact and not the actual focal point of the impact, while shomenuchi refered to any downward "cut" hence the japanese term for cutting down. a blade hand is "te katana" if i am not mistaken. The iron palm and the te katana are not quite the same in my humble opinion, but it doesn't hurt to learn how to actually hit someone, I mean when i work out i get a little put off by those who narrowly commit a real attack in their ukemi, my aikido rarly works unless the try to jit or move me. Just pretending or feaning an attack is not good for jiyuwaza, rondori maybe ok if i get to just let it go...

well off the subject i guess, sorry.

in Aiki
Agatsu!!
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Old 12-08-2002, 08:26 PM   #7
Bruce Baker
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Show me your target?

There is only one practical overhead strike point and that is the collar bone ... that is unless you have a hand as hard as a hammer, then you might learn to strike the pressure points on the centerline of the skull?

So, the answer is ... you are aiming at targets on the side of the head that are activated by that angle and direction of strike, unlike shomenuchi where other targets of the knife like strikes to the neck, and some knuckle strikes to the jaw are viable.

Come on, get out of your Aikido class know it all, I don't understand attitude and study!

Aikido is not a study purely japanese, but a japanese study of martial arts. Learn the difference and you will find the answers.

Take a few days and consider where the strikes of either sword or hand are going, what areas are being attacked to activate a response, then use this knowledge to enlighten your studies.

The fact that the last few posts were so intent upon shomenuchi being yokomenuchi(overhead strike changing to horizontal strike to neck area) just go to show that none of you are taking the time to actually detail why you are using these directions, angles, or where they are intended to land? If you are not using a sword, just what is your target with that angle and direction of this strike?

Even yokomenuchi starts at the same point as shomenuchi, doesn't it? If it doesn't, then I think there should be some more detailed practice to show how empty hand and Aiki-ken, bokken/ wooden sword, are closely related.

Am I getting testy, could be?

Maybe I have been to too many different classes where each teacher claims their way is the owner of particular techniques, when it is the practitioner who can understand, discern, and describe the how / why a technique works that really owns it.

The point is probably this ... as long as we speak in code, using only Japanese terms, we are not going to clearly understand or properly teach the depth of techniques, and the be able to carry Aikido into the future.

Aikido will probably maintain its mysticsysm because of its physical performance validating its martial capability, but why not find the roots, and understand their uses?

That could be why so many japanese shihans are aloof to the western way of teaching? Whether they use the martial aspects of Aikido or not, they are trained in a more martial manner to consider such things.

I say, we should get some clarity, and start finding the true meaning of what we are doing in practice. Some descriptions, whether right or wrong, will help us all to learn.

Ok.

We have two terms on the table.

Yokomenuchi.

Shomenuchi.

How about some descriptive terms to your understanding of these terms and what the heck they are suppose to do when you hold a piece of wood in your hand, or when you are empty handed?

Just what the heck are you actually doing, and where are the strikes supposed to be aimed at?

If you want ten or more answers, refer to pressure point strikes in the downward or horizontal angles to find possible targets.

I thought that little bit should help most of you if you haven't studied pressure point strikes ....
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Old 12-08-2002, 11:04 PM   #8
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my shomenuchi strikes are aimed more forward than downward after the initial upward movement, extended through to the inside cup between the eye and nose, that off sets the balance of the uke and can smart someone in a street fight. But it is not aimed at the top of the head, except in practice with a beginner in case they miss it and i want them to return which they might not if i had slapped them on the front of the face and broke their nose with a shomenuchi strike. just my opinion, see if it works for you. let me know.

in Aiki
Agatsu!!
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Old 12-08-2002, 11:37 PM   #9
Chris Li
 
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Re: Show me your target?

Quote:
Bruce Baker wrote:
There is only one practical overhead strike point and that is the collar bone ... that is unless you have a hand as hard as a hammer, then you might learn to strike the pressure points on the centerline of the skull?

So, the answer is ... you are aiming at targets on the side of the head that are activated by that angle and direction of strike, unlike shomenuchi where other targets of the knife like strikes to the neck, and some knuckle strikes to the jaw are viable.
I would suppose that the answer is that there is a difference between a training tool and an actual strike. Yoshimaru Keisetsu actually discusses that very issue in "Aikido no Kagaku", but he's really a Daito-ryu guy, so I don't know if that counts .
Quote:
Bruce Baker wrote:
The point is probably this ... as long as we speak in code, using only Japanese terms, we are not going to clearly understand or properly teach the depth of techniques, and the be able to carry Aikido into the future.
Any particular term that you choose will be "code" to some linguistic group. Why is an English version better than a Japanese one?
Quote:
Bruce Baker wrote:
Just what the heck are you actually doing, and where are the strikes supposed to be aimed at?
A technical discussion of strikes is a great thing, but that's different then naming. Any name (even in Swahili) doesn't prevent you from having a technical discussion over a particular physical movement.

Best,

Chris

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Old 12-09-2002, 05:41 AM   #10
Ta Kung
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Wanting to use english instead of japanse terms for techniques, is pure BS. I've witnessed this sooo many times, and almost every time it's an american who wants to change it to english. (note: I'm not saying everyone does!)

How come the French almost never seem to mind using Japansese, or the Spanish, or the Swedes, or the English, or the Germans and so forth? How come it's so common for americans make such a big fuss about this?

I simply don't see the point of translating techniques. The risk of missinterpretation is alot bigger if everyone started translating the technqiues as they see fit.

Come on! It's not that hard to learn a few words in another language then you own! What are you afraid of?

Last edited by Ta Kung : 12-09-2002 at 05:49 AM.
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Old 12-09-2002, 06:19 AM   #11
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Hi!

I have to agree with "Ta Kung" on the fact that this whole matter of language-difficulties seems to be an american problem almost exclusively.

"Big brother" will just have to deal that not everyone thinks american is always the better option...

I'm musician and italian works wonders as the "lingua franca" in music and has done so for many hundreds of years...

Anyway.

I was just wondering why we even NEED to discuss what the specific target of a shomen or yokomen uchi is.

Isn't it enough to stipulate them as general principles of what GENERAL angle of attack should be used. Depending on the speed of reaction or evasive move of an opponent, the blow could land virtually anywhere on top (shomen) or side of (yokomen) the head, the arm and/or upper trunk.

It could even MISS, god forbidd ;-)

This applies to other attacks too. You can't always expect to hit a designated rib, muscle etc. with a thrust or blow.

I thought that the whole principle of takemusu was to be adaptive to whatever attack came in. To acomplish that you would need to practice neutralizations of various incoming blows with respect to what general incoming directions they have and accordingly. That given i wouldn't care to much wether my opponent was aiming for my jaw or my temple as long as he's down there on the floor in the end and we're both all right.

/Jesper Arenskogh
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Old 12-09-2002, 06:42 AM   #12
happysod
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Wink

Agree with the general gist of "keep the Japanese in aikido", but I can sympathise with Bruce as I haven't found an easy way of looking up the terms used in some of the previous threads. Honest, tried keeping various web-dictionaries open, perched the dog-eared "Japanese for the illiterate" on my lap and I still feel I'm missing what people are trying to describe. Going off some of the other posts of "what d'you call..." I don't think I'm totally alone (and I hate to think what non-native-English speakers have to go through).

What I'd really hope for is that some dedicated, competent saint out there in aikido-land could come up with a nice easy-to-use set of translation smilies that people could insert in their thread? The descriptions (not just English) could perhaps be done on the same basis as current posts are, with different interpretations listed. OK, so I'm greedy and would probably benefit greatly from learning Japanese properly instead (did try and my Japanese friends were very, er, polite anyway), but as I'm sometimes only semi-functional in English and poor-dire in French and German I'll take any help I can get.
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Old 12-09-2002, 07:08 AM   #13
Avery Jenkins
 
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It doesn't make sense to divorce Aikido from its original lingua franca just to replace it with one more convenient to those of us who are native English speakers.

If you truly wanted to create a universal Aikido terminology, Bruce, you might be better advised to utilize Esperanto, which is designed for such a purpose.

I can see it now:

Cu vi batas lin kapo?

(Are you whacking him on the head?)

Jes, mi batas lin verto mia boken.

(Yes, I'm whacking him on the top of his head with my wooden sword).

Avery

Avery Jenkins
www.docaltmed.com
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Old 12-09-2002, 07:12 AM   #14
Ta Kung
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Ian, I like your idea. Now if we only could trick Jun into start working on it...

My Japanese is terrible, I only know the terms used in Aikido. Still, I feel that during training, I understand the Japanese terms better than a made up english (or Swedish for that matter) discription...

Here on the forum, it would be great to have some kind of translation for those who do not follow the lingo... But for God's sake, don't start giving techniques english names in the dojo!


/Patrik

Last edited by Ta Kung : 12-09-2002 at 07:17 AM.
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Old 12-09-2002, 08:22 AM   #15
lt-rentaroo
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I'm an American, and I must say that when I visit other dojo that use English language translations to describe the techniques, I get rather confused as to what is being said. This is because I've spent the majority of my training time in a dojo that used the Japanese terms exclusively.

The only Japanese I really understand is "Aikido and Judo" Japanese (although I'm working on learning Japanese well enough to carry on an everyday outside of the dojo conversation).

For me, the Japanese terms are as much a part of Aikido as the four basic principles. It's nice being able to visit dojo in countries other than the United States and understand what is being said, the Japanese terms are a nice equalizer. Not only that, but I've been able to browse dojo websites from the Netherlands, Italy, and Germany and understand the content, solely based upon the Japanese terms used.

For those of you who are not Americans, please don't place all of us in the same bowl. Take Care!

Last edited by lt-rentaroo : 12-09-2002 at 08:25 AM.

LOUIS A. SHARPE, JR.
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Old 12-09-2002, 08:27 AM   #16
aikigreg
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I think we're all doing just fine and don't much see a need to conform to your method of communication. If I don't understand what someone is talking about, I ask for clarification, and I get it.

About about shomenuchi to the head being "incorrect" in your point of view: it becomes more correct when someone is holding a knife, or any one of a dozen more situations that make it a viable strike.

It's all in how you see it.
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Old 12-09-2002, 08:57 AM   #17
Arianah
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Re: Show me your target?

Quote:
Bruce Baker wrote:
There is only one practical overhead strike point and that is the collar bone ... that is unless you have a hand as hard as a hammer, then you might learn to strike the pressure points on the centerline of the skull?
We are training against an overhead strike to the center of the head. The attack probably doesn't make sense unless you're holding bottle, a baseball bat, a {insert weapon of choice here}. Impractical? Well, I know that if I were attacking someone with a baseball bat, I'd go right for the center of his/her head. And I wouldn't be trying to hit any pressure points, either.
Quote:
Aikido is not a study purely japanese, but a japanese study of martial arts. Learn the difference and you will find the answers.
Are you suggesting that you've found the answers, Bruce?
Quote:
Even yokomenuchi starts at the same point as shomenuchi, doesn't it? If it doesn't, then I think there should be some more detailed practice to show how empty hand and Aiki-ken, bokken/ wooden sword, are closely related.
Point?
Quote:
Am I getting testy, could be?
What you give out, you get back.
Quote:
We have two terms on the table.

Yokomenuchi.

Shomenuchi.
All right. As I have seen it, shomen --, is translated as front. So shomenuchi would be a front strike. Yokomenuchi (yoko translated as "side," men -- translated as "face") would be, to the side of the head.

Now, I am not a Japanese speaker. I don't pretend to be. There are others on this forum (Jun, Chris, Peter) who are, and can give you a much more correct answer than I. But, to me, the language itself seems to support the way that aikido practitioners use the descriptive words. Just because you interpret them to mean something else, doesn't mean that everyone should change their attacks.

Shomenuchi, in my dojo, is an overhead strike to the forehead. That is how I practice it. That is how I've always seen it practiced elsewhere, as well. That is how I will continue to practice it until someone tells me differently. If I want to play with different variations on attacks in free practice with a sempai, I can, but for safety's sake, stick to what is being taught.

To suggest that we should all start leaving out Japanese terms just for your benefit is ludicrous. This is a Japanese art, and this is a forum about a Japanese art. If you don't understand a term, enlighten yourself a little bit and go look it up. If you think that a term is being used incorrectly, ASK, don't preach! There's a good chance that someone else knows better than you. And far better than me.
Quote:
How about some descriptive terms to your understanding of these terms and what the heck they are suppose to do when you hold a piece of wood in your hand, or when you are empty handed?
They are descriptive terms. Oh. You want them in english? You want them to describe "what the heck they are suppose [sic] to do?" Ok. I decree from this moment, yokomenuchi will hereby be called strike-to-the-side-of-the-head,-oh,-but-make-sure-you-lift-your-hand-above-your-head-first,-kinda-like-shomenuchi {insert long rambling English term here},-but-you-have-to-counter-balance-a-bit-by-shifting-your-weight-and-moving-your- leg,-and-maybe-you-can-do-a-little-variation-where-the-strike-goes-to-the-side-of-the-neck,-maybe-even-hit-a-pressure-point-or-two,-oh,-and-if-you-happen-to-have-a-piece-of-wood-in-your-hand,- you-have-to-change-your-maai {nsert long rambling english translation of maai here}-a-little-bit,-and-if... I could go on, but you get the idea. The above is not a term. The reason you train is to learn all of that and associate it all with a specific term. A longer description isn't going to make it easier to do.
Quote:
If you want ten or more answers, refer to pressure point strikes in the downward or horizontal angles to find possible targets.
Ha! Oh, Bruce, I had forgotten about your pressure point mania. It's actually kind of cute...

Sarah, who hasn't read a Bruce Baker thread for months... and now remembers why...

Out of clutter, find simplicity.
From discord, find harmony.
In the middle of difficulty, lies opportunity.
-Albert Einstein
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Old 12-09-2002, 09:07 AM   #18
Arianah
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Quote:
Ian Hurst (happysod) wrote:
Agree with the general gist of "keep the Japanese in aikido", but I can sympathise with Bruce as I haven't found an easy way of looking up the terms used in some of the previous threads. Honest, tried keeping various web-dictionaries open, perched the dog-eared "Japanese for the illiterate" on my lap and I still feel I'm missing what people are trying to describe. Going off some of the other posts of "what d'you call..." I don't think I'm totally alone (and I hate to think what non-native-English speakers have to go through).
Actually, there are a few good dictionaries online. The best ones for just following along with terms are the ones that are actually aikido based. Try these out:

http://www.aikidojournal.com/new/encyclopedia.asp

http://www.aikidofaq.com/dictionary/index.html

Even right here on aikiweb: http://www.aikiweb.com/language/vocab.html

Have fun with those.

Sarah

Out of clutter, find simplicity.
From discord, find harmony.
In the middle of difficulty, lies opportunity.
-Albert Einstein
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Old 12-09-2002, 10:27 AM   #19
happysod
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Hiya Arianah,

Thanks for the sites, yep, those are the web-things I mean. They're good, but as several of the posts have shown, not everyone seems to mean quite the same thing, even when they use the same words (this post a case in point) - just wondering whether a more thesaurus-style reference with more than one contributor would help the hapless like myself. (and yes, I'm essentially lazy - or to put it another way, trying to get my {forum} uke to do my work for me)
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Old 12-11-2002, 06:11 PM   #20
Bruce Baker
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Actually Sarah Fowler, keeper of the birds thereupon, the one who cooks and bakes says unto thou ... what the heck are you talking about?

I did not say can the Japanese terms, but provide proper alternative desciptive wording.

I know the water is a bit strange up there in Connecticut, it gave me a rash when I worked there in '96 for Boat US, but come on ...

I guess I need to visit your dojo and show you exactly what I am talking about. These posts are terribly inadequete. No threat intended, but as a matter of clarity, since all people around the world do not think in japanese, or speak japanese, or spend their days learning the japanese terms for every little Aikido variation, which tend to be desciptive wording of what they consider variations to be anyway, why not add some descriptive wording to actually learn the detail or at least a short hand note of what the term in japanese means in your native tongue?

Does that clear it up?

Sometimes I think some of you are abused children who can't get out of the abused tough guy, tough girl rut?

I have a pretty simple way to deal with it. I let you try to hit me until either you get tired, hurt your hand when you hit me, or you learn to talk instead of get mad or hit someone.

Sorry about the rant to others who read this, but I do get a bit testy in the cold wet rain, and a few other posts by Sarah came to mind, and I thought I should get it out now.

Tell you what Sarah. Go to NYC and go a few classes with Butch, and ask him after class about Bruce from Long Beach Island. First hand info, and I think he can help you refocus upon your training, as he has been around the Aikido world for a while and traveled quite a bit with Sensei Y. Yamada. You really need to train with more people who have been around the martial arts circle and settled into Aikido to more than just my views from reading posts on the Aikiweb.

My apologies for the gruffness of my writing, but like a bear my posts mellow with the spring. Four more months to spring... can't wait.
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Old 12-11-2002, 06:35 PM   #21
Bruce Baker
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For those of you who don't completely read posts...

Don't give up the japanese terms...

... but add descriptive wording in your own native tongue that you might more readily pick up the Japanese words.

The whole point of bringing this up, is that sometimes I bring up other descriptions for a technigue, either chinese martial arts or other MA descriptions of Aikido variations upon techniques, and most of the time the teachers, or teacher have no idea what I am talking about.

I don't claim to know more than the teacher, but the school hard knocks is a stern teacher and you don't forget your schooling.

Is it in turn fair play to turn about the descriptions of aikido's japanese terminolgy with root terms from other schools of martial arts, or is it merely more misinterpretation, as students of O'Sensei were given tecniques, half watching the top of O'Sensei and half watching the bottom of O'Sensei, whereupon they gave techniques numbers if they couldn't describe them?

Maybe they were not supposed to number the techniques as one, two, three, four, five ... which came out as ikkyo, nikkyo, sankkyo etc, etc. Maybe O'Sensei thought they were too stupid to remember the entire description of the technique and the history of where it came from or how it evolved?

"Stop thinking grasshopper. Do technique number one."

Let me get this last thing off my chest then you can go on to other posts that are more interesting.

How about getting a striking chart from one of the martial arts suppliers. I know Asian World in Philadelphia, PA has them. They are pretty common in most karate schools.

Then look at the chart and find out the proper way to strike, rub, or push that point in order to make it work. I think once you have done that, you won't be as in the dark about what we are doing with the many movements of Aikido, and the openings many of you miss as you have your everyday practice.

Let alone the two way motion it takes to properly practice with your bokken ... more like casting a fishin' rod than chopping wood like the rusty Tin Man.

That felt better ... thanks for reading this.

Enuf said ... for now.
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Old 12-11-2002, 07:32 PM   #22
lt-rentaroo
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 237
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Mr. Baker,

After reading your last two posts, I've decided to add you to my "ignore list". I've decided to do so based upon a number of reasons. Please allow me to clarify these reasons.

#1 While I've enjoyed reading some of your posts in the past, I find these last two posts quite disturbing. It seems as though you're intent on criticizing those of us who do not see the need to "add descriptive terms" in an effort to better understand the Japanese terms. Personally, I do not need the addition of English/French/whatever language terms to understand what the Japanese terms mean and from the other posts here, others share my ability.

#2 Your overall attitude towards other members of the board who may not agree with you is quite horrible. When you post a question or idea and others do not readily agree, you refer to them as "children" who just don't understand. Personally, I find this rather insulting especially when some of these "children" have years more experience in Aikido than you.

#3 The "know-it-all" attitude is getting very old with me. I would think that someone with as much experience in the martial arts as yourself would have a more humble attitude.

#4 Your overwhelming generalizations towards how the majority of us train in Aikido is ridiculous. How can you make a statement regarding how many of us seem to miss the readily apparent openings when you've not trained with many of us? Blanket generalizations such as this only point towards your relative lack of training in Aikido.

Have a good evening, take care.

Jun -

I ask that you not delete this post, I'm not ashamed of my thoughts and I'm certain that others feel the same. Thank you.

LOUIS A. SHARPE, JR.
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Old 12-12-2002, 01:56 PM   #23
Jim23
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 482
Offline
My sentiments exactly Louis. I think his wheel is turning, but his hampster's dead.

By gosh, I think Bruce just put me on his ignore list - Ha! How am I going to sleep tonight?

Tit for tat, Bruce mi'boy.

Jim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 12-12-2002, 04:30 PM   #24
Arianah
Dojo: Aikido of Norwalk
Location: CT
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 205
Offline
Quote:
Bruce Baker wrote:
<snip long reply>
Heh... I knew there was a reason I liked to engage you. It's always fun to play to see who can out-b**ch the other.

What was that? Did someone just call girl fight? Bruce, don't pull my hair! Dammit, would you stop slapping me!?

Sarah, always in the spirit of play

Oh, by the way:
Quote:
Sometimes I think some of you are abused children who can't get out of the abused tough guy, tough girl rut?
Usually when you say something like this, it's always "tough guy." Did you add the second gender just for lil' ol' me? Quite frankly I'm flattered, Bruce. Tickled pink that you would change your gender bias just for me.

Out of clutter, find simplicity.
From discord, find harmony.
In the middle of difficulty, lies opportunity.
-Albert Einstein
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