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Old 12-07-2002, 12:51 AM   #26
Williamross77
 
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HWUA??

DUDE PLEASE DON'T KILL ME!

I MEAN WE HAVE VODOO IN LOUISIANA AND ALL, BUT WHUA?

OK?
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Old 12-08-2002, 08:55 AM   #27
Bruce Baker
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Now, those last two posts were uncalled for.

In fact, they are the heart of learning to be the light of harmony in learning Aikido.

The basis of polishing the stone is not to be the darkened overlord of fear, but enlightened and protect/nuture/ provide guidance into the knowledge of how to make you world, your life, your society a better place.

Let's save this type of comedy for the Humor section?
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Old 12-08-2002, 12:18 PM   #28
MattRice
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I don't know Jack about pressure points, except they hurt. However, I did see this with mine own eyes.

Years ago at a seminar in a karate dojo, the guy giving the seminar was 10th dan something something etc etc, and was there to explain/demo pressure point techniques. We were all very skeptical. Then he demonstrated on several large karateka from our dojo. Tapped them on the base of the neck somewhere, with a flick of his wrist. They dropped to the ground where they stood and had to be helped up. They were NOT plants or coopertive in any way. They were conditioned and experienced fighters who, moments before were bent on proving this guy a fraud. It wasn't magic, dude knew what he was doing. Just because something is beyond your realm of experience doesn't make it fiction.
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Old 12-08-2002, 01:06 PM   #29
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Yes your right Mr Baker, i was was just phlaberghasted or flabergasted with the "wherefrom" on that MAGIK comment. NO harm intended.

About the point on the neck, was it the front or back of the base of the neck?

There are H9 and H10 on the front of the neck that can do that. two on the side and back of the neck. Can't quite remember there name but i can look it up in my texts. There is one used for KI developement that can cause a nasty sensation and move you along the back of the shoulder, 3finger supinate the mid point of the shoulder joint and the cleavage of the neck or base of the neck. just under the GB20 along the muscle ther is a quite effective point that can cause loss of conciousness (kan oui geat a speel cheekr pleeze).

in Aiki
Agatsu!!
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Old 12-08-2002, 09:19 PM   #30
Bruce Baker
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Thank you Mr. Ross.

I too am a fan of Master Dillman.

I don't think in terms of numbers of a meridian, but in physiology with angle and direction of strike or method of activation. Must be from school of hard knocks, all those pressure point numbers get too confusing for me when actual practice is so easy within techniques. I guess that is why they make charts, eh.

Thank you for joining the Aikido forum. It is good to have another voice who has had experience rather than trying to teach some of the posters about what the heck pressure points are.

Now if we could get some advanced studys to include some pressure point seminars, we just might have a martial art that is a leg up on some other martial arts?

Welcome, and don't be afraid to lambast me when I need it. Keeps me honest.
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Old 01-03-2003, 10:47 PM   #31
aikidoc
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pressure points

Dr. Michael Kelly's book on the Death Touch discusses the medical validity of pressure point techniques. He takes the mystery of the acupuncture points out of the picture and relates it to the actual nerves. Very good start for us westerners.

Yes, anatomy makes pressure points somewhat ineffective on a certain percentage of people. However, regular practice and attention to non-responsive pressure points has a tendency to sensitize them over time and they often start working-that's my experience anyway. Striking set up points can also sensitize others as well.
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Old 01-04-2003, 12:56 AM   #32
PeterR
 
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Re: pressure points

Quote:
John Riggs wrote:
Yes, anatomy makes pressure points somewhat ineffective on a certain percentage of people. However, regular practice and attention to non-responsive pressure points has a tendency to sensitize them over time and they often start working-that's my experience anyway.
That's interesting. Aside from the obvious retort (excuse me bubba while I sensitize your pressure points) I wonder how much of that is belief and how much is anatomy.

My experience on the nerves typically accessed by kime techniques (yonkyo for example) is that one gets desensitized over time. I surely don't jump nearly a high as I used to and my forearms aren't any thicker than they were and my training partners are no less skilled.

I've considered the possiblity of toughness to pain (grab me anywhere and I wont jump like I used to) has increased but still where a lot of kime as been applied there is a lot less feeling.

Last edited by PeterR : 01-04-2003 at 12:59 AM.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 01-04-2003, 07:27 AM   #33
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Another interesting book that looks at the pp thing from a physiological/nerve and tendon perspective is something called "Black Medicine: The Dark Art of Death" by N. Mashiro, PhD, karateka and medical doctor. (Interesting name, eh?)

I agree that over time the body does build a degree of resistance/insensitivity to points that are activated continuously over time.

But then I apply something I learnt in shiatsu regarding how to treat irresponsive meridians and points. By stretching the area (of course this applies to points on the limbs mainly), the meridians are exposed better and are easier to access.

Simple experiment (for those willing) let uke stand with tegatana (unbendable arm) extended and try to activate kime points along the arm (found about 9 in my search). Count how many get the desired reaction.

Then apply something like a oshi taoshi (ikkyo) pin where the arm is stretched out to the max and try again. See if there is any change in reactionto the amount that respond or in how much they respond.

Of course I could just be a sado-masochist as well and just have a love for pain practice

Either way, I don't see pp application as a cure all or replacement for effective aikido technique. To me its a place to go when nothing else works, or when the technique just needs a little bit of extra persuasion.

I don't think though, that adding pp techiques to the mainstream aikido repertoire is gonna enhance its credibility as a "martial art". The techniques of Aikido are already dangerous as is, just takes a little bit of malice to make them deadly. Aikido works, sadly though, you may not get that impression from some of the training methodologies applied to teach it... this is where the question lies.

If you come up against a skilled attacker and your basic techique can't save you, don't expect pressure points to either.

L.C.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 01-04-2003, 01:35 PM   #34
Bruce Baker
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There is no one study that encompasses all of martial arts or how to use martial arts.

The give in of pressure points is that they are a piece of the martial arts puzzle as much as a rivet holds a building together, or electrical wires transmit electricity, or even when found in Aikido they transmit either motion or pain. Pieces of what it takes to understand something is like eating cereal with a fork ... it gets done ... but a lot of it drips or falls off before you get it into your mouth?

Or it is more like forgetting a few nails or screws when building a house?

It looks like a house, it stands up to most weather, but you don't miss what you don't see, so it just doesn't matter.

Well, to the guy who builds houses for a living, it matters to him.

Sure you can build a house with less fasteners, but would you feel secure if you knew it could have been built better than it is?

That is how you should consider pressure points.

You don't always see how important they are, or really care if you don't need them, but it will greatly enhance your knowledge, and why certain movements in Aikido are the way they are, and work best the way they are.

Oh, Well.

I guess it is like the karate guys who have never done aikido. You don't know what you are missing until you have been there, and done that.
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Old 01-07-2003, 02:47 PM   #35
Lyle Bogin
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The new text book, Kung fu Elements by Shou-yu Liang and Wen-Ching Wu has one of the best sections on this topic i've ever seen, specifically since it gives detailed explaination of the 12 cycles that corrospond to the time of day. So if it is between 11 and 1, you should strike those points that corrospond with this timeslot for maximum effectiveness. That is the old secret of the chinese masters...or so they say.

"The martial arts progress from the complex to the simple."
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Old 01-07-2003, 02:57 PM   #36
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Re: Pressure Points

Quote:
Andrew Mendes (Amendes) wrote:
By the way our sensi did a presure point to our most senior student out of class, since this one was not something to show in class. I won't say where it was, I know the general area but I don't know exactly what point.

Before he did it he said this "This is what I think a very very bad sould feels like when it goes to hell."

He did it for a split second.

After the student stoped shaking on the ground he said." Do that for 3 seconds and your out." The person who had it done on him told me it was the most physicaly painfull thing he had ever felt in his life. And almost lost conciousness.

So don't ever judge a technique or method untill you have tried it enough times.
I'd like to see you executing and holding a pressure point for THREE SECONDS on someone attacking you apeshit-style.

IMO, pressure points are completely useless.
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Old 01-07-2003, 08:35 PM   #37
aikidoc
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Pressure Point Response

I did an internet survey in 1999 of 5th dan and above instructors on the internet and found a wide variety of responses in regards to atemi and pressure points (kyusho jitsu). My conclusions are that style, interest, aikido paradigm and other martial arts training tends to influence people's beliefs about the purpose, role, and effectiveness in aikido. There are no answers to this issue only opinions.

Anatomically, nerve points or pressure point strikes can be very effective for setting up and executing technique. With study you will find that the points are easily struck without altering the flow of the technique.

To quote from my Black Belt Magazine article submission (still waiting on whether they are going to accept it):

"The application of vital point striking and atemi in general is a multi-faceted issue. Styles focused on martial effectiveness and older versions of Aikido are likely to place more emphasis on atemi. Others, however, prefer to use softer techniques and focus on ki or energy development. The individual's belief system, viewpoint of Aikido philosophy, prior training, training style or affiliation, maturity level, and legal implications all play a role. The nature of the attack in a real situation and the dynamics of risk, adrenalin and skill all determine the likely response.

In my opinion, atemi and kyusho waza play an integral role in the martial implications of Aikido and serve as the transition from art to combat. Its application allows the defender to control the situation with minimal risk of injury to either party. To fail to use the tools available in a combat situation to ensure a favorable and safe outcome is irresponsible and shows ignorance of the possible implications of violence."

There is a lot of stuff out there on the application of kyusho and atemi to aikido-many refer to O'Sensei's use of such techniques. You have to look for it but it's there.

Everyone should pursue the issue based on their interests-I personally feel it has extensive martial implications for the art and is a lost element. Doing the technique harder and with more force does not make it street effective. My "opinion" is that the effective application of kyusho jitsu and atemi-waza is the bridge between art and combat. True not everyone is susceptible. However, contrary to other comments in the forum, I have "personally" found that pressure points tend to be more sensitive to manipulation the more they are struck-ask one of my students-I barely touch his arm anymore and he gets lit up in pain or his hand goes numb. Those of you who have practice yonkyo for any length of time know that successive applications to the radial hurt more each time-I hardly call that getting used to it. Most of my students cannot practice yonkyo for long due to the increasing pain sensitivity.

Just some of my thoughts for whatever they are worth.

John
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Old 01-07-2003, 08:48 PM   #38
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Add on

I am not sure many people practing pressure points will hold them for 3 seconds unless they are using it for a controlling lock. Generally, they are struck with varying degrees of force with the purpose of causing pain compliance or disabling a limb. The pain compliance is used to cause the uke to move away from the pain or respond in such a fashion to make control easier. Pain also has a tendency to disengage the attackers intent due to dealing with the shock effect of intense pain. This form of pattern interrup may give the nage time to execute the technique. Numbing he limb has the same effect. Kotegaeshi is easier to execute for example when the uke's shoulder is dropped rather than standing tall.

Doubters-this stuff has medical validity: read Michael Kelly's book "Death Touch". If you chose not to study it great.

I just feel there is too much "you're full of crap" type bantering in the forum which in my opinion is not productive. Those interested in the topic would have a more interesting forum by discussing their experiences and findings in applying pressure points/kyusho jitsu/vital points/nerve points or whatever you want to call them and atemi waza. Those who think we are full of it would be better served by finding a forum more to their liking or laughing at us in silence.
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Old 01-07-2003, 09:00 PM   #39
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Now to address my suggestion. I find when applying yonkyo I get a more effective pain response by applying a "complex torque" to the arm during the application. I prefer to use a mawashi type wrist bend whereas my friend Gary Chase in Memphis prefers to use a sankyo torque applied simultaneously while applying the yonkyo. The complex torques seem to expose the nerve more (radial nerve) or traction it (I'm not sure what the science will show) and make the technique more painful. Another sublety is to roll the knuckle of the index finger down and into the pressure point while squeezing the area as well. Occasionally, I'll get a meat hook that it doesn't work on but usually it works nicely. The more I apply it in single training session the more sensitive my students are to successive applications (my experience).
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Old 01-07-2003, 09:08 PM   #40
PeterR
 
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Re: Pressure Point Response

Quote:
John Riggs wrote:
Those of you who have practice yonkyo for any length of time know that successive applications to the radial hurt more each time-I hardly call that getting used to it. Most of my students cannot practice yonkyo for long due to the increasing pain sensitivity.
I was talking about a longer time frame than the course of a training session. I expect a damaged area to hurt more immediately after the damage is caused if the injuring action is repeated. My personal observation still stands (and I am pretty sure most of the godan instructors in my dojo would agree) that kime (ie. yonkyo) has less effect over time (measured in years).

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 01-08-2003, 12:13 AM   #41
Kevin Wilbanks
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Re: Add on

Quote:
John Riggs wrote:
I just feel there is too much "you're full of crap" type bantering in the forum which in my opinion is not productive. Those interested in the topic would have a more interesting forum by discussing their experiences and findings in applying pressure points/kyusho jitsu/vital points/nerve points or whatever you want to call them and atemi waza. Those who think we are full of it would be better served by finding a forum more to their liking or laughing at us in silence.
PUH-LEAZE! The pressure point advocates in this thread have been making more and more outlandish and strident claims about pressure points. In your own quote, you decry those who don't use them as "ignorant" and "irresponsible". Then, when faced with skepticism or satire, you demand that the critics be silent and imply that they are not welcome on 'your' forum? Earlier, we were even treated to the command to "shut the hell up"!

If you want to have a little love-in among the faithful without the pesky intervention of honest skepticism, I suggest you tone down the grandeur of your claims. Confine yourself to "I" and "We" statements - 'I like pressure points', "we enjoy studying pressure points'. If, on the other hand, you want to continue to make truth claims, and can't refrain from casting aspersions on the non-pressure-point-faithful, then stop crying foul or trying to get away with cop-outs. Telling everyone to read a particular book, for instance, rather than arguing the relevant points or citing the evidence yourself is a cop-out.

If you want to convince me about the amazing powers of pressure points, or that my Aikido is impovrished without them, cite some evidence or provide some plausible arguments. Can you cite any double-blind, peer-reviewed, scientific studies that use control and placebo groups showing the efficacy of a 'death touch' or some little tap-tap-tap that leaves the victim writhing on the floor? Can you explain why I have never seen, nor heard of a single instance of such a technique being used in any of the thousands of UFC, Vale-Tudo, and other no-holds-barred fighting events that have taken place in the world in the last decade or so?

Last edited by Kevin Wilbanks : 01-08-2003 at 12:15 AM.
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Old 01-08-2003, 08:32 PM   #42
aikidoc
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Response

If you want to be a critic, please get the quote accurate. Here is what I said: To fail to use the tools available in a combat situation to ensure a favorable and safe outcome is irresponsible and shows ignorance of the possible implications of violence." The operative word was "tools" of which atemi is one. My statement did not say what you said.

Most of the studies would have to be from the acupuncture literature which there is little available. I'm not sure if a double blind study would convince anyone who has already made up their mind.

The intent of my comments was to get the forum on the topic of pressure points and the usages and personal findings and to not to keep throwing darts back and forth. Those interested in pursuing the study of pressure points are not going to convince those who think they are useless any differently. If someone chooses to not attempt to study a topic but stand firm on their opinions, I or anyone else will not convince them otherwise. Read the literature, practice the applications or take seminars and then formulate your opinions. You may still come up with the same point of view but at least you have given it a shot. Learning about pressure points (nerve points) can be painful-nerves transmit pain. The reason I suggested readiing a certain book is Dr. Kelly takes the esoteric acupuncture concepts out the picture and relates it to science. Not that I am attempting to change anyone's mind so please don't attack me for a valid suggestion. I promise not to ask you to read the book. Just those interested in the topic.

As a response to the yonkyo issue. I find my wrist and the wrists of my students seem to be very sensitive to not only within session practice (which by the way was not specified) and subsequent practice sessions. Maybe we are just a bunch of sissies or we have very sensitive wrists. Or perhaps we don't practice the technique enough to toughen up. Again-it is my experience with this particular issue.

Dr. John Riggs
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Old 01-08-2003, 09:02 PM   #43
aikidoc
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Here's a question: Who can the following be attributed to? He felt the minimal force aspects of atemi were lost by subsequent practitioners.
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Old 01-08-2003, 09:56 PM   #44
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Follow up: I have not made any outlandish claims although you may view others having done so. My statements have been directed at striking nerve points or pressure points. If you strike a nerve it will hurt. If it does not hurt you have an amazing pain tolerance or the nerve was never struck in the first place.

Outlandish claims, for example, of people being knocked out does have scientific validity. It is called a vaso-vagal reflex or faint-i.e. a rapid drop in blood pressure causing the person to faint. Striking the nervous system in the right fashion can set up a drop in blood pressure. This is extremely dangerous since someone with heart problems or vascular problems could have a cardiac event. This is again explained scientifically in Dr. Michael Kelly's book (he's a medical doctor).
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Old 01-08-2003, 10:48 PM   #45
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Since the use of nerve points (kyusho) was one of the 'tools' you enumerated, then the implications are clear: if I fail to use them in a situation where you deem they could be used, I am "irresponsible" and "ignorant of the possible implications of violence". While the last phrase is admittedly quite vague, the implied accusation of ignorance is not. How you can be mystified or offended that a skeptic would see this kind of hyperbolic rhetoric as a challenge, I don't know, nor why you would try to evade the obvious implications of your own writings.

Likewise, your insinuations that my mind is closed (i.e, "already made-up") is also an argumentative dirty trick. I have indeed made up my mind not to believe in things which do not correlate with my experience and the patterns I derive from it without evidence and/or good reason - so far neither has been provided. This is not remotely the same thing as having already decided that any particular negative assertions regarding pressure points are true.

Also, invoking the credentials of the author is not relevant. In philosophy, we call this an "argument from authority", which takes the form of "x is true because so-and-so says so, and they are an authority". Sorry: not a valid argument.

If you look, the original question was not just about what is possible under controlled circumstances, but about practicality. My original response to the poster included skepticism about the plausibility of applying the techniques in a full-speed altercation. Since there are so many wide-open fighting events going on these days, and - to my knowledge - the use of esoteric pressure point techniques is not explicitly against the rules in any of them. The information is freely available in books and taught widely. Why have we not seen the incredible efficacy of these techniques... even once?

My other point of skepticism is about being able to reliably produce devastating effects by applying minimal pressure point attacks. I'm not talking about merely a bit more pain being produced by a strike, as we are all familiar with this in terms of the groin, throat, etc... Sure, there are cases of 'cardiac concussion' inducing heart attacks, or strikes causing fainting, etc... But, can these effects be reliably induced by Dim Makkers on uncooperative subjects?

The only such 'evidence' I've ever seen was of the 'Ripley's Believe it or Not' television sort, which could easily have been staged, influenced by the beliefs of the participants, etc...

Last edited by Kevin Wilbanks : 01-08-2003 at 10:51 PM.
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Old 01-08-2003, 11:10 PM   #46
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Seems like we have a philosophy major here.

So if we want to play with words my statement can be interpreted as follows:

If you have no knowledge, training, or experience in the application of pressure points or atemi waza, then you cannot be irresponsible or ignorant of the implications of their use in a violent situation since they are not part of your "tool". The statement would only apply if you fail to use the tools you have available to you-i.e., what your training, skill, experience and knowledge bring to the violent situation. I am sure you will find a way to take umbrage with this statement as well.

As to the UFC matches, I only know that many of the winners have a jui jitsu background. Many styles of jui jitsu have atemi and pressure point applications. As to whether they use them or not I have no knowledge since I generally do not watch this form of stage violence. Although it may be closer to real street violence, to me it does not represent a real situation where skills are not matched or the violent intent is more than choking or getting a tap out. I personally have never watched a match, therefore, I am only speculating-so please pull a couple of the nails out of my palms.

My reference was not to impress you with Dr. Kelly's credentials or to use them to justify my statement. It was simply to show that his doctorate was not in a non-medical topic but rather to show that his credentials were in the area on which he was commenting-medical explanations for pressure points.

It would be interesting to know what training and experience you have had in the use of striking and pressure points since you indicate such experience has apparently not found them worthy. Peace.
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Old 01-09-2003, 07:12 AM   #47
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Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote:
My other point of skepticism is about being able to reliably produce devastating effects by applying minimal pressure point attacks.... Sure, there are cases of 'cardiac concussion' inducing heart attacks, or strikes causing fainting, etc... But, can these effects be reliably induced by Dim Makkers on uncooperative subjects?
Was drawn to this point, since I believe that the fainting response, at least in one situation, is based on the physiological design of most (if not all) human vascular systems. The following is a quote from the book I outlined above-pp28-32:

"Carotid sinus and Vagus nerve: Since the brain is probably the most delicate organ in the body, and since it requires a constant and uniform flow of blood in order to function properly, the body has developed extraordinary safeguards to insure that the flow of blood to the brain is not interrupted. Similarly, the blood pressure to the brain must not be allowed to rise to too high a level because of the danger of cerebral hemorrhage.

To maintain this status quo there have developed special nerve cells in the carotid artery called baroreceptors whose sole function is to monitor the blood pressure in this important artery. If the pressure suddenly rises to a high level, these baroreceptors respond by sending immediate signals to the central nervous system. Within a fraction of a second the central nervous system has acted in turn to decrease blood pressure in the body by causing four things to happen:

(1) The heart immediately slows down.

(2) With each beat the heart is able to pump out less blood.

(3) The artereolar smooth muscle relaxes, which greatly

increases the volume of the arterial system, drawing blood away from the head.

(4) Venous dilation, which increases the volume of the venous system, greatly decreases the amount of blood which can get back to the heart.

The net result is an almost instantaneous four-way reaction to decrease the flow of blood to the brain. This is the reason that the side of the neck is such an effective striking point, because the shock to the baroreceptors forces the CNS to react (mistakenly) as if the blood pressure in the head had risen to a dangerously high level. The CNS reacts with a drastic drop in blood pressure, and within a second or tow the blood supply to the brain is cut off completely. Fainting is immediate and unavoidable…."

I do apologise for the length of the post however. Just thought it's clarify some stuff.

L.C.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 01-09-2003, 06:05 PM   #48
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Hi Larry;

I have the sneaking suspicion that either Nariyama reads these forums or has someone report to him what's being discussed. I remember once on this topic when Bruce was going on about there being no pressure point strikes in Aikido that I went to a Sunday morning lesson and Nariyama was pointing out these very things. Interesting stuff.

I did not find anything John said to be too outlandish even though I disagreed with some of his observations. Kevin made a very good point though. You just don't see the use of pressure point strikes in UFC type events. Seriously cool if you did.

So Larry my question is - as an Aikido shiai man whose well versed in pressure point theory, how easily would it be to effectively incorporate these strikes.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 01-09-2003, 06:26 PM   #49
PeterR
 
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Quote:
Larry Camejo (L. Camejo) wrote:
If you come up against a skilled attacker and your basic techique can't save you, don't expect pressure points to either.
I agree with that staement - but just to clarify my last request - which ones?

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 01-09-2003, 08:42 PM   #50
Kevin Wilbanks
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"It would be interesting to know what training and experience you have had in the use of striking and pressure points since you indicate such experience has apparently not found them worthy."

Not exactly. I am skeptical about the practicality of using pressure points, and also about whether they even reliably 'work' in the sense of producing dramatic effects like death or unconsciousness with the application of very little pressure. As I said, my only experience in seeing this sort of thing is on sensationalist tv shows which did not appear to be credible information sources.

I have little doubt that poking or striking people in certain areas hurts more than others - I have whacked my ulnar nerve or "funny bone" and been hit in the testicles, for instance. In a martial context though, it seems like the points are difficult to access, and the effect of pain unreliable, in comparison to say, immobilizing someone, breaking things, making them hit the ground real hard, stabbing them with a knife, shooting them with a .357 magnum, etc...

As far as my own practice goes, I am not particularly interested in pressure points even if they do 'work'. For one thing, training to be a fighter is not my primary goal in studying Aikido.

For another thing, training pressure points sounds extremely unpleasant, and possibly damaging to the nervous system in the long run. The tale about students being more sensitive to pressure points not only in a particular session but cumulatively over time should ring a little warning bell. It is likely that their peripheral nervous system is incurring damage that is not healing.

From my studies of CNS and PNS recovery with regards to weight training, I know that it can take up to two weeks to fully neurally recover from an extreme 1RM attempt in an exercise like the squat or deadlift. Deliberately poking and whacking nerve bundles to cause extreme pain might even require longer recovery periods, and doesn't seem like something I would want to practice regularly - it sounds like the students are becoming weaker, more susceptible to nerve attacks, and possibly doing things to their nerves that may have unfortunate consequences later in life.

I have heard anecdotes from powerlifters who have pushed so hard in a particular exercise over a period that they experience a kind of 'neural burnout' in that exercise. In a few cases, their performance took over a year to come back up to prior levels, and in one case, the prior level of performance was never attained again, no matter how hard he tried, despite good progess in other movements. Not scientific evidence, to be sure, but I thought the accounts seemed credible enough to be of interest. (Incidentally, competitive powerlifting is another extreme practice in which I have little interest in participating.)
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