Teacher and Drugs

Hi folks,

It looks like this thread has moved into a non-aikido subject. I'll most likely be moving this thread into the "Open Discussions" section soon.

Also, please remember that the first rule of the AikiWeb Forums is, "Treat your fellow AikiWeb Forums members with respect." This applies whether you are posting anonymously or not.

-- Jun

I'm cheating and have only read first page, due to lack of time, but i think that if people want to mess themselves up privately - go for it. But when they start going high to the dojo, teach and learn that way then it IS a problem. Talk to your sensei, privately, and if it doesnt work take it further - aka authorities. People can and will get hurt sooner or later.

You're about 5 years too late for this discussion judging from the dates of the original posts. Still It would be interesting to see if the original contributors have changed their views on drugs over this period of time.
Anyway just passing through..............

HI, I just wanted to add my own comment here. As you know, sad as it is, Aikido combined with drug use seems to be common. I have been dealing with just that issue of late. I've been an student of Aikido since about mid June of this year. I really love it. There are however, things that have been happening that concern me. A lot of the higher-ranking Deshis as well as the Sensei have a habit of smoking pot before class. And please, I HAVE seen this happen many times. It worries me a lot. Not only because pot is illegal, but more because it puts everyone at risk for injury. I am still a white belt, and about 2 weeks ago, I was sparring with a student a couple belts above me. Mind you, I have no problem doing this IF the persons in question are in complete control of their faculties. I was practicing Ne Waza with this person, and they got me into koto Gaeshi, but instead of stopping at the point where I could just feel it, they continued to the point where I actually felt something give in my shoulder. I returned to practice two days later, and told them of the injury, asking them to only use my left hand in practice. They didn't listen, or even slow down. That is a huge problem at my dojo. They have no concept of what slow down means. Obviously, im not going to be as fast as some of the higher students, and I shouldnt be at this point. I need to learn proper technique first. That night (Wed) I was working through the releases with one of the higher students. He kept going through them fast and putting way too much energy behind them. It got o the point, where as we were going through one of the last releases, I lost my balance from the speed of his move, and got dropped right into a window frame, landing on the same shoulder as I had hurt earlier. The sensei didn't even know what had happened until I sent him an email the next day, even with me telling the student very loudly to slow down.

A concerned student

Anonymous User wrote: HI, I just wanted to add my own comment here. As you know, sad as it is, Aikido combined with drug use seems to be common.

No...I "don't know"...that Aikido combined with drug use "seems to be common."

I have been dealing with just that issue of late. I've been an student of Aikido since about mid June of this year. I really love it.

So, you've been a student...for what? 3 months? And you make a blanket statement about aikido, like THAT??

Sorry, but I've been a student of Aikido for 22+ years. I make a point of travelling to as many different dojos, with different affiliations, as I can. In all my travels (in and out of the US), I have NEVER come across a dojo where someone was training under the influence.

If I did, I'd imagine that said inebriate would be shown the door.

There are however, things that have been happening that concern me. A lot of the higher-ranking Deshis as well as the Sensei have a habit of smoking pot before class. And please, I HAVE seen this happen many times.

Uh huh...sure you have.

It worries me a lot. Not only because pot is illegal, but more because it puts everyone at risk for injury. I am still a white belt, and about 2 weeks ago, I was sparring with a student a couple belts above me.

"Sparring?" Fess up: you've never really practiced aikido, have you?

Mind you, I have no problem doing this IF the persons in question are in complete control of their faculties. I was practicing Ne Waza with this person, and they got me into koto Gaeshi, but instead of stopping at the point where I could just feel it, they continued to the point where I actually felt something give in my shoulder. I returned to practice two days later, and told them of the injury, asking them to only use my left hand in practice. They didn't listen, or even slow down. That is a huge problem at my dojo. They have no concept of what slow down means.

If this is even 1/2 true (which I doubt), then you need to find another dojo.

Obviously, im not going to be as fast as some of the higher students, and I shouldnt be at this point. I need to learn proper technique first. That night (Wed) I was working through the releases with one of the higher students. He kept going through them fast and putting way too much energy behind them. It got o the point, where as we were going through one of the last releases, I lost my balance from the speed of his move, and got dropped right into a window frame, landing on the same shoulder as I had hurt earlier. The sensei didn't even know what had happened until I sent him an email the next day, even with me telling the student very loudly to slow down. A concerned student

A very nice story, Troll: but I'm not buying it. But again, even if it were true (giving you the benefit of the doubt): you have found some weird den of inebriate stoners who call themselves aikidoists. My advice: find another dojo where the students don't smoke weed before class.

But more likely, you are making it all up. In this case, my advice is to stop posting lies about a MA that you clearly know little about.

But, try the other MA sites: they could use a good laugh, too: I'm sure.

Actually i know the poster of that quite well, and she's not a troller. And what's your deal anyway? This is an experience of hers, and just becuse you havent seen it (I assume) it doesnt mean these things don't happen. Show some respect.

Excuse me SIR.

I do not appreciate your tone at all. I was simply sharing what had happened to me. Yes, I used the term 'sparring' So what? I couldn't think of the proper term at the time. Give me a break! I'm NOT doing this just to get attention, I was trying to express my real concern for how SOME people 'practice' aikido. I didn't intend that to be a blanket statement. If it cam off like that, I am sorry. Why do you automatically assume that I am lying about having witnessed people smoking pot? I really don't appreciate you ASSUMING that I am making this up. The dojo in question is run by someone I know, and I started studying there because I know the person. I did not know at the time that they smoke almost every day before class. Trust me, I AM looking for another school. And I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't automatically assume that I'm a troll and lying. Have a little respect.

A Concerned Student

I've been doing Aikido for 33 years and, yes, I've seen both major and minor drug use in dojos across several organizations. This doesn't include alcohol.

Jim Baker

Erik Jögimar wrote: Show some respect.

Anonymous User wrote: Excuse me SIR. I do not appreciate your tone at all.

Respect, online, is a moving target. Even amongst different websites, respect and etiquette have different meanings.

Personally, I tend to tow the line of "hate the game: not the player." That is, when someone says something I find outrageous, or patently false (such as, drug-usage is something you find happening a lot, around aikido-practice): my first impulse is to ridicule the statement (rather than the post-er).

For me, the guidelines of anonymous post'ers are a little wider, especially when the statements get progressively outrageous. Altho, the worst thing I'll ever say of a person directly, is that they are a troll...as that is my assumption (wrong, or right) of the activity that they're engaging.

But let's all take a step back, because some here seem to forget a basic tenet of the internet.

concerned wrote: I was simply sharing what had happened to me. Yes, I used the term 'sparring' So what? I couldn't think of the proper term at the time.

Almost all aikidoists train (keiko); they do not "spar." Other MA's "spar" (boxing); while others "play" (i.e., Capoeira). Your usage of "sparring" made me think that you were possibly a MA (martial artist) from another discipline, coming online here to play "Diss the aikidoka." (it's been done before)

concerned wrote: Give me a break! I'm NOT doing this just to get attention,

And the reason I would know this, is....?

concerned wrote: I was trying to express my real concern for how SOME people 'practice' aikido. I didn't intend that to be a blanket statement. If it cam off like that, I am sorry.

Well, it did. This sentence is what really set me off:

concerned wrote: As you know, sad as it is, Aikido combined with drug use seems to be common.

Why do you automatically assume that I am lying about having witnessed people smoking pot? I really don't appreciate you ASSUMING that I am making this up.

I'm sorry that you don't appreciate it. However, there you are...anonymous, and making blanket statements about a practice in a martial art, of which I spent a great deal of time studying. On the face of it, you are describing an activity of which I have never seen, experienced, or heard about, after a long time of training in dojo's of many affiliations, in more than a few countries. Of course my default position would be skepticism, and doubt about your intentions.

Consider the nature of the internet, for a second. We all can come online here, and pretend to be, do, or have witnessed, anything we like. You COULD actually be who you say you are, OR you COULD be Erik Jogimar (who COULD be someone else, entirely). I really have no way to tell (just as, you have no way to tell if I am who I say...it works both ways).

So, all I have to go on as to your veracity is your word, balanced against my own experiences. A lot of ppl come online and love to tell us all how ineffective aikido is, etc. Your post sounded suspiciously in that vein.

The dojo in question is run by someone I know, and I started studying there because I know the person. I did not know at the time that they smoke almost every day before class. Trust me, I AM looking for another school. And I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't automatically assume that I'm a troll and lying.

Point taken. But I hope you see the reasons for my doubts, as well.

Have a little respect. A Concerned Student

OK, fair enough. Now, coming from the assumption that everything you say is true and accurate: here's my response:

I voted for medical marijuana with the rest of California when it came up. I also think that marijuana should be legalized, and that too many police resources are spent prosecuting marijuana users.

However, aikido is a martial art that could easily cause accidental injuries, even in the best of times. One thing I HAVE seen in almost all (American) dojo's where I've trained is the "release from harm" form that all students have to sign before training. This form is supposed to serve as an official notice that you understand that aikido can cause injury; and that you won't sue the dojo, should you become injured.

Pot-smoking would make this form completely moot: should you actually BECOME injured, all you'd have to do was mention pot-smoking at the trial, and the dojo would be liable (i.e, Sensei and the senior members were not acting in a manner that was safe to train).

At the very least, it's really stupid for yudansha (or ANY rank) to smoke pot before class, as it affects their judgement of what's going on (just as you pointed out, in your training example). They cannot accurately assess possible injuries of anyone training, under the influence.

At the very worst, they are presenting a very bad example to their dojo-members and are NOT really representing the teachings of O-Sensei. In short, what they are doing is not aikido.

My advice? Again: run, don't walk, to another dojo.

Baker-san,

Thank you for that. I'm glad some people don't think I'm a total nutcase and a troll It's sad that some feel that they have to depend on certain substances in order to achieve the proper mindset for aikido. In my experience, such as it is, I find that aikido itself is a form of meditation for me. I find it to be very, ah mentally liberating in it's own right. While I haven't been a student of Aikido for very long, I have at least found that

Jim Baker wrote: This doesn't include alcohol. Jim Baker

This reminds me of a funny story involving MA (not aikido) training and alcohol...almost a cautionary tale.

A few years' (mid-90's) ago I trained in both Capoeira and aikido. One night I taught an aikido class (as a sub: not the normal teacher). Still feeling a little spry: I decided to rush over a few blocks to the Capoeira class. Two of the new students in the aikido class decided to tag along, to watch.

This time, however, our Mestre introduced a "new element" to training: a bottle of rum, which he made us all drink. I assumed that it had something to do with a sort of "goodbye-toast" to the buidling, as we were moving out, soon (what I SHOULD have done was pay more attention to the videocamera, off to the side ). So, I drank a few sips out of the shared bottle, and then we played in the "roda" (circle). I thought that we did a TREMENDOUS job, playing! We seemed more graceful and energetic: I was happy I brought over the 2 guests from aikido class.

That is, until the next party at Mestre's house, wherein he yanked out the videos he took, and I saw how we all REALLY looked...

So, now I know that I'm immortalized whenever Mestre has a party, with a stumbling video of my less-than-coordinated-self, on a buzz....

Urk. Don't let this happen to you!

Neil Mick wrote: Respect, online, is a moving target. Even amongst different websites, respect and etiquette have different meanings. Yes, I'm quite aware of that, thank you. Almost all aikidoists train (keiko); they do not "spar." Other MA's "spar" (boxing); while others "play" (i.e., Capoeira). Your usage of "sparring" made me think that you were possibly a MA (martial artist) from another discipline, coming online here to play "Diss the aikidoka." (it's been done before) Like I said, I couldn't think of the right word, no one's grammar and command of english is ALWAYS perfect. Well, it did. This sentence is what really set me off: Again, I'm sorry. How many times do I need to apologize for that??? Consider the nature of the internet, for a second. We all can come online here, and pretend to be, do, or have witnessed, anything we like. You COULD actually be who you say you are, OR you COULD be Erik Jogimar (who COULD be someone else, entirely). I really have no way to tell (just as, you have no way to tell if I am who I say...it works both ways). I'm quite aware of that, thank you. So, all I have to go on as to your veracity is your word, balanced against my own experiences. A lot of ppl come online and love to tell us all how ineffective aikido is, etc. Your post sounded suspiciously in that vein. I am in no way trying to tell you how in effective Aikido is. I'm simply trying to point out that pot use CAN affect one judgement and reflexes. My advice? Again: run, don't walk, to another dojo.

And yes, I am finding another school.

Anonymous User wrote: And yes, I am finding another school.

Good.

Anonymous User wrote: Excuse me SIR. I do not appreciate your tone at all. I was simply sharing what had happened to me. Yes, I used the term 'sparring' So what? I couldn't think of the proper term at the time. Give me a break! I'm NOT doing this just to get attention, I was trying to express my real concern for how SOME people 'practice' aikido. I didn't intend that to be a blanket statement. If it cam off like that, I am sorry. Why do you automatically assume that I am lying about having witnessed people smoking pot? I really don't appreciate you ASSUMING that I am making this up. The dojo in question is run by someone I know, and I started studying there because I know the person. I did not know at the time that they smoke almost every day before class. Trust me, I AM looking for another school. And I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't automatically assume that I'm a troll and lying. Have a little respect. A Concerned Student

Is this a swedish dojo?

Hi folks,

I'd like to step in and ask that locations of these dojo and other such possibly identifying information be kept out of the discussion. I don't think discussing such, especially under anonymity, is along the lines of why I created the Anonymous forum.

Also, let's try to give the benefit of the doubt for anonymous users. I'd like to make sure that anonymous users feel comfortable in bringing up their issues here in the Anonymous forum.

Thanks,

-- Jun

Grondahl,

it is not a Swedish dojo. Erik simply replied because he and I know each other, and he was expressing his support for me. And, like Jun said, I tried to keep indentifiers out of my post to protect the privacy of those in question. My words to anyone who reads this: Please take a careful look at any dojos you may be considering, and if there are questionable things happening, find another dojo, as I am doing now.

Anonymous User wrote: It's sad that some feel that they have to depend on certain substances in order to achieve the proper mindset for aikido.

This would be delusional behaviour, the 'proper' mindset for aikido cannot be achieved by adding 'something' to the mix. It comes from patiently stripping away all of the 'rubbish' that gets in the way of achieving real co-ordination.

If a student turned up at class, having indulged in any drink/drug, they would be asked to sit and watch, by the end they would have lost their buzz and missed a practice...that would be sad..

practice, practice, practice, then if you wish, imbibe in your chosen intoxicant away from the dojo, down the pub?

regards,

Mark

True victory is self victory.

Aikido is not for correcting others but is a method for correcting your own spirit.

Watch and feel what you feel. Learn from peoples 'mistakes, and make them your strengths. Clean up your own act entirely, completely, and without a stone left unturned before you start on correcting others. If they are still f'd up by your estimations. start at the top of the list again.

If you don't like the training, move yourself.

Rob Klinglesmith wrote: Turn this on its head. I don't deny you your powers of self-determination. Smoke if you want. I am not in the business of trying to force my opinion on you. But answer this: Why do you use at all? The internal need or desire for a chemically-induced altered state of conscious is suggestive. But I don't want to make any assumptions. Just give me a few good reasons why one would want to use. Oh - and don't worry, I am not a researcher.

There has not been a viable culture in the history of civilization that does not begin their day with a strong stimulant. The problem is people equate drug use with drug abuse ...they are not at all the same thing. mentally stable people can responsibly use drugs...in the same way that stable people can use alcohol, which can be devastating debilitating and life threatening. The issue is with the individual ..the substances are benign.

"Just give me a few good reasons why one would want to use."

Because anti-depressants make me want to hurt people, and because I like to sleep at night.

And Yes I have a State of California Patient's card, and I do not consume for at least 3 hours before training. Usually not at all on days I train at night.