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Old 12-20-2002, 09:49 AM   #51
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Dear friend, you speak of disillusionment as if it were a bad thing. One should welcome such a thing, because living in an illusion is living in a deception. Living in a deception leads to all kinds of problems, like making bad decisions. And I for one, prefer to live in and react to, reality. Yours in aiki, MBrown, Cabot, AR.
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Old 12-20-2002, 12:09 PM   #52
achilleus
Dojo: West End Aikikai
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Quote:
Bruce Baker wrote:
The body's dependancy upon drugs, even mild drugs, will take anywhere from six months to a year to allow the cravings or effects from chemical dependancy to abate.
Bruce, this is just completely wrong.

Even a hardline medical model of physiological dependence and addiction contradicts what you have said.

This is the difference between opinion and the facts as we know them. I am very happy that you have found peace in a life no without drugs and that you feel that you are better off. That is a something to be happy about and congratulations for accomplishing a difficult feat.

BUT, that does not confirm the suppositions you are making. You cannot always leap from the specific to the general in that way.

The comment about pot scrambling your brains is just tripe -I'm sorry, but there is no other way of contradicting that.

Again, I think it makes more sense for people to live there lives and make their own decisions like you have reported doing rather than making up nonsense to spook people who don't know any better (yet).

DA

PS

drugs are not the only contributor to a whacky brain - some people are born with them!

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Old 12-20-2002, 12:16 PM   #53
kendo52
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reality?

So that i may better understand you - please define reality.
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Old 12-20-2002, 12:38 PM   #54
mike lee
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easy

Have someone whack you in the shin with a baseball bat. That feeling that you have immediately afterward — well that's reality!
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Old 12-20-2002, 12:43 PM   #55
kendo52
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Are you Anonymous User?

As to the shin are you telling me that pain is reality? Or a feeling of pain is reality? Reality is a feeling? Please clear it up for me.
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Old 12-21-2002, 02:51 AM   #56
mike lee
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reality check

When your shin is hit with a baseball bat, you'll know.

reality

SYLLABICATION: re·al·i·ty

NOUN: Inflected forms: pl. re·al·i·ties

1. The quality or state of being actual or true.

2. One, such as a person, an entity, or an event, that is actual: "the weight of history and political realities" (Benno C. Schmidt, Jr.).

3. The totality of all things possessing actuality, existence, or essence.

4. That which exists objectively and in fact: Your observations do not seem to be about reality.
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Old 12-21-2002, 06:39 AM   #57
Kevin Wilbanks
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Gawd. It sure doesn't take long for a thread to degenerate into utter tripe. I used to have a philosophy professor who explicitly promised a big 'F' to anyone silly enough to reference the dictionary as a repository of truth. Can't you just see it:

Socrates: "So, young Plato, today we are going to enjoin a debate on the nature of piety."

Plato: "Hey, why don't we just look it up in the dictionary."

Socrates: "Dohh! You mean I could have just bought a dictionary! I never thought of that. What have I been doing with my life?"


Last edited by Kevin Wilbanks : 12-21-2002 at 06:50 AM.
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Old 12-21-2002, 06:57 AM   #58
mike lee
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much ado ...

Quote:
Gawd. It sure doesn't take long for a thread to degenerate into utter tripe
What a noble contribution!
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Old 12-21-2002, 10:43 AM   #59
Jeffrey A. Fong
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Ahh yes, the old saw, "drugs or drug use are not inherently bad..." Indeed there are problems, regardless of whether the amount used reflects "casual" or "dedicated professional" use. The problem generated by these discussions is that a determination of the pros and cons of "drug" use is not born solely out of moral reflection or recitation of incomplete research data.

Having said that, one is forced to make certain decisions about the value of an activity in order to avoid the friendly but ultimately disingenuous feel good qualities of relativism.

With respect to drug use, consider the following:

1) Obviously, drugs vary widely in their composition, effect and use - but seriously, does anyone out there think "recreational" use of methamphetamine represents sound phyisiological and psychological practice?

2) The question, "why won't you train with a guy (or gal) who smokes pot once in a while. After all, they go to school, work, etc, just you and me" is misleading because it clouds the issue. We are not judging a person's moral character, but rather, the effect of a chemical on one's behavior. The more accurate question is, would you want to practice with someone who is high? Do you want to have someone who is drinking only "recreationally" performing neurosurgery or evaluating the physical or emotional abilities of special needs children. With respect to my PhD behavioral neuroscientist colleague (I am a Licensed Psychologist in public mental health), while there are currently no conclusive data of long term impairments resulting from marijuana use, there are, however, ample data citing statistically significant and functionally meaningful deficits in cognitive functioning when people are high. Nothing moral about that.

3) In as much as I am a true fan of everything in moderation, it is my experience, having served years both in the community and in inpatient settings, that people have an uncanny tendency to abuse/take advantage of/feel inexorably drawn to tickle their synapses when they don't need to because it feels good - unfortunately, this results in chronic patterns of abuse and often dependence. The drug user is usually the last to know the impact of their use; when they comment, "none of my friends have complained," they are usually relying upon the judgement of fellow drug users - how's that for a reliable sample of reality?

So, is the answer an "Orwellian" type of personal supervision and a further tightening of our moral belts. HELL no! I don't know the answer to that. However, I do hope that people can assess this issue with a more full appreciation of the data and less social, personal hysteria. The Tao is found through clarity of vision, and I believe that is not enhanced with drug use.
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Old 12-21-2002, 11:05 AM   #60
Kevin Wilbanks
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As far as #2 goes, I would probably rather not train with someone who was high, but if the information wasn't volunteered, and I didn't know any different, what's the difference to me? I have trained with many people that weren't high who were absent minded, dangerously uncoordinated, or just plain sadistic bastards out to prove something. I'd take most of the partners not in those categories stoned over the people in those categories any day. The bottom line remains: judge people by their actual observed behavior, not specualtion about their blood chemistry or thought content. If a person trains high and the effects are significant enough to be a danger, their behavior will reflect that, and decisions can be made based on the behavior.

Last edited by Kevin Wilbanks : 12-21-2002 at 11:07 AM.
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Old 12-21-2002, 08:04 PM   #61
Jeffrey A. Fong
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Kevin, I agree with you. My comments were primarily geared towards individuals making sound decisions regarding their own use. Note, however, there is a distinct difference between innate personal characteristics, such as "clumsiness" (of which I personally have an abundance), and the elective characteristics one acquires with substance use.

Best regards.
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Old 12-21-2002, 09:47 PM   #62
Kevin Wilbanks
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Quote:
Jeffrey Fong (Jeffrey A. Fong) wrote:
Note, however, there is a distinct difference between innate personal characteristics, such as "clumsiness" (of which I personally have an abundance), and the elective characteristics one acquires with substance use.
In terms of training safety, there may be a distinction, but there is no difference, which is my entire point. I don't understand why you and other party-line toe-ers need to keep brininging it up, if not as a pretext for eroding privacy. If someone is going to fall on me or tear my hand off, I don't care why, I just don't want them to do it. If you are hazardously clumsy, and someone else is moderately competent while on crack, I'll take the guy on crack.
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Old 12-25-2002, 12:04 PM   #63
Jeffrey A. Fong
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Again, to assert the merits of drug use as solely reflecting a "relative" matter is naive and disingenuous. The relative effect ("I didn't hurt anyone") of drug use is only one criterion by which a behavior is evaluated. Suggesting an individual can be "competent" while on crack is indicative of a scarey lack of knowledge about drugs like this and their effect on an individual's physiology, ability to think, act and feel - this is both an individual problem and a social dillemma.

Unlike "klutziness," drug use is an elective, counfounding variable, and the true spirit of Aiki is not served by blending with this strange form of self-absorption.

Again, my assertion is not a call for invasion of anyone's privacy. In fact, my whole argument has been based upon self examination and a willingness to consider that drug use poses very real personal and interpersonal consequences. To pretend otherwise is an call for ignorance.
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Old 12-25-2002, 05:38 PM   #64
Kevin Wilbanks
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Quote:
Jeffrey Fong (Jeffrey A. Fong) wrote:
Suggesting an individual can be "competent" while on crack is indicative of a scarey lack of knowledge about drugs like this and their effect on an individual's physiology, ability to think, act and feel...
Oh really? I spent years reading everything I could about every conceivable way to get high, and for years I tried everything I could get my hands on, including freebased cocaine, which is basically the same as crack. I have also known people personally who have done more than just experiment with crack. Leaping to conclusions about the state of my knowledge seems a bit hasty.

I think it is unlikely that someone could use crack responsibly for more than a short period of time, but it is certainly not impossible. Some people can use almost any drug without becoming addicted. Some can become addicted to as mild a form of stimulation as shopping.

I have read accounts of advanced meditators/yogis who can take massive doses of hallucinogens and demonstrate no effects whatsoever. People in very different cultures are able to incorporate drugs we think of as fearsome and dangerous - even cocaine - into their lives without becoming self or other destructive.

Drugs don't cause highs, minds do. Drugs merely trigger them. Contrary to what you say, I think the desire to get high in various ways is perfectly natural. You say people don't 'need to'. So what? If everyone kept to only what they strictly 'needed', life would be very dull... in fact, humans would probably be extinct by now. Actually, I think most of the priorities and paradigms of contemporary mental health are screwed up, but that's a larger debate.

Every person's response to, and disposition towards any drug is different. How destructive and horrible the drug is has more to do with how the use is framed in the person's life than anything to do with the purported evil, bogeyman qualities you believe inhere in them. It's true that some drugs are trickier to deal with than others, but no outcomes are cast in stone.

In fact, as someone involved with Aikido, you should be familiar with the dynamics of how demonization and attempts to suppress by force actually make that which is suppressed stronger, bigger, more important - a disposition of enmity tends to facilitate self-fulfilling prophecies.

Last edited by Kevin Wilbanks : 12-25-2002 at 05:41 PM.
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Old 12-26-2002, 02:38 AM   #65
mike lee
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where's the Way?

Quote:
Suggesting an individual can be "competent" while on crack is indicative of a scarey lack of knowledge about drugs ...
It's also indicative of someone who doesn't have a clear understanding about the purpose of a dojo.
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Old 12-26-2002, 09:56 AM   #66
opherdonchin
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What do you mean, Mike? I didn't understand.

Yours in Aiki
Opher
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Old 12-26-2002, 03:32 PM   #67
Kevin Wilbanks
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Good luck Opher. Don't strain yourself. Looks like just another smug drive-by to me.
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Old 12-26-2002, 05:12 PM   #68
Jeffrey A. Fong
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It is unfortunate that this is such a personally provocative topic of discussion for some. Once again, this is not about judging people or championing institutional restrictions on personal choice or hindering personal growth and individuality.

Having an unbiased, objectively based appreciation of how some chemicals can affect people, and how many folks easily lose track while experimenting or "doing research" should pose a warning sign to all. Having a background in cross cultural psychology, as well as being a person of color, I feel that I can safely say that such caution is held by people regardless of their religious or cultural context.
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Old 12-26-2002, 08:00 PM   #69
Kevin Wilbanks
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Quote:
Jeffrey Fong (Jeffrey A. Fong) wrote:
Having an unbiased, objectively based appreciation of how some chemicals can affect people, and how many folks easily lose track while experimenting or "doing research" should pose a warning sign to all. Having a background in cross cultural psychology, as well as being a person of color, I feel that I can safely say that such caution is held by people regardless of their religious or cultural context.
When all else fails, try plying an argument from authority, setting yourself up as the authority? Pretty weak. If you're serious, and you really think you have acheived an "unbiased, objectively-based" viewpoint, then it appears there is no basis for further discussion. Sadly, I run into this sort of thing a lot. It's too bad universities and colleges don't have more rigorous philosophy requirements.

I'm also glad to say that your last statement is false, even within the history of contemporary 'western' culture. If everyone were truly so staid, unadventurous, and 'cautious', our lives would be unrecognizably impovrished by the lack of generations of artists, musicians, poets, entrepreneurs, dreamers, inventors, and iconoclasts of every sort. Recklessness is the stuff the future is made of. I get the feeling if establishment psychology types have their way, our future will be very dull, and humans will go the way of the do-do bird.
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Old 12-28-2002, 02:39 AM   #70
mike lee
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busted

I've heard that artists, musicians, poets, entrepreneurs, dreamers, inventors, and iconoclasts of every sort are all headed to Jacksonville, Florida — the new risk-taking center of the universe.
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Old 12-28-2002, 09:14 AM   #71
Jeffrey A. Fong
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"Establishment" 0 Martyrs 1
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Old 12-28-2002, 10:58 AM   #72
Kevin Wilbanks
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Re: busted

Quote:
Mike Lee (mike lee) wrote:
I've heard that artists, musicians, poets, entrepreneurs, dreamers, inventors, and iconoclasts of every sort are all headed to Jacksonville, Florida — the new risk-taking center of the universe.
So, when my Dad told me he had terminal metastatic colorectal cancer and he wanted me to come down and be with him for the end of his life, I should have said "Too bad, old man, I'm goin' to New York City, where the action is!"?

If they weren't such an obvious expression of lazy arrogance, your ad hominem drive-bys might actually be annoying. Unlike Opher, you won't find me wasting much energy trying to interpret what you say, or even paying much attention to your existence henceforward. Continue with your little Chihuahua antics as you see fit, you're now on my unofficial 'ignore list'.
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Old 12-29-2002, 05:50 PM   #73
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If you have a brain tumor, with slim odds at successful removal, would you really feel OK that your neurosurgeon used cocaine, or marajuana, or both? Regularly or intermittently? That month, that week, 10 minutes before your surgery? Or how about the cardiothoracic surgeon due to operate on your mother, or your child? Or the pilot flying you to the next seminar, hey, if he knows he's OK to fly (actually) while flying (metaphorically) then really, are you the one to disagree?

We know who the beginners are. We know who the clumsy people are. It is the intermittently, unexpectedly impaired (from legal or illegal substances) that can kill you. Literally.
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Old 12-29-2002, 07:30 PM   #74
Kevin Wilbanks
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Quote:
() wrote:
If you have a brain tumor, with slim odds at successful removal, would you really feel OK that your neurosurgeon used cocaine, or marajuana, or both? Regularly or intermittently? That month, that week, 10 minutes before your surgery? Or how about the cardiothoracic surgeon due to operate on your mother, or your child? Or the pilot flying you to the next seminar, hey, if he knows he's OK to fly (actually) while flying (metaphorically) then really, are you the one to disagree?

We know who the beginners are. We know who the clumsy people are. It is the intermittently, unexpectedly impaired (from legal or illegal substances) that can kill you. Literally.
"Necessity is the plea of every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of Tyrants; it is the Creed slaves."

-William Pitt
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Old 12-30-2002, 03:18 AM   #75
mike lee
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ignore; the root of ignorance

Quote:
So, when my Dad told me he had terminal metastatic colorectal cancer and he wanted me to come down and be with him for the end of his life, I should have said "Too bad, old man, I'm goin' to New York City, where the action is!"?
If my father were dying, I think I would spend every possible minute with him. Somehow, I don't think I would have much time or emotional energy for discussing trivia on AikiWeb. But hey — that's just me.
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