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Old 12-01-2002, 10:10 PM   #26
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in my opinion aikido ia not practical as the attacks are not aligned with the reality of todays world, such as the mixed martial artists that are very competent boxers, kick boxers whose attack is not overcommitted as most aikido practitioners would prefer. combine this with strong wrestling/grappling skills and i think the average aikido practitioner would be at a loss! thoughts anyone?
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Old 12-01-2002, 10:23 PM   #27
Nacho_mx
Dojo: Federación Mexicana de Aikido
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Somebody ban these troll...please
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Old 12-02-2002, 02:07 AM   #28
mike lee
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anonymous nonsense

Quote:
i think the average aikido practitioner would be at a loss! thoughts anyone?
I think the average wrestler or kick-boxer would be at a loss when I show up with a bokken and crack their cranium in half. Just my thoughts.
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Old 12-02-2002, 02:25 AM   #29
Jim ashby
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To paraphase Prof Quirrell in Harry Potter "TROLL, TROLL IN THE DUNGEON!".

Have fun.

Vir Obesus Stola Saeptus
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Old 12-02-2002, 03:04 AM   #30
Edward
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I think the issue about aikido's efficiency has been long out of date and pointless. The truth is we practice aikido because we enjoy it, not because we want to kick butts.
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Old 12-02-2002, 06:51 AM   #31
Kevin Wilbanks
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Back to the main topic: If the only 'drug' we're talking about here is marijuana, then I think the original unregistered, and all the other 'just say no' armchair psychologists need to get a grip. If you had any idea how widely used pot is, you'd probably have an anyeurism. Pot is used moderately and responsibly by people of every social class, and almost every job type - the proof is that they get their jobs done and you don't even know about it.

It's true that some people use it excessively, and this is usually associated with amotivational, 'loser' behavior, but in this case the behavior is the problem, not the fact that marijuana is the alleged cause.

In fact, to my mind, in all situations, the behavior is always the place to look. If you have no problem with a person's behavior as you and those you have known have experienced it, then looking into their private lives to find some reason to condemn them is wrong. When the gov't does this, we (should) call it an unacceptable invasion of privacy, yet somehow through two decades of propaganda, people have come to accept the notion of drug testing and prying into people's personal lives as common and benign. That little triumph of 'the war on drugs' was probably the single biggest erosion of the American ideal of freedom in 200 years.

Now we have 'Homeland Security' in which crimes become more of a crime if you are found to have expressed certain kind of thoughts, not to mention PC-related thought crimes. Not to mention encouragement by the gov't to spy upon one's neighbor. Keep it up y'all. Keep flaunting your high-horse, ignorant moralism. Keep doubting people who have dealt with you squarely. Keep peeking and prying into their private lives with suspicious agenda. With a population so eager to be complicit in its own downfall, who needs terrorists?
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Old 12-03-2002, 03:23 AM   #32
Williamross77
 
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Well I returned.

Yes Aikido is a FORMIDABLE martial art as I and some of the Police Officers I have taught have used it to quite an addiquit degree. (I used to to bounce out roudy individuals from a few bars in my life)I think that this is answered in another thread about NHB competitions. There are oppertunities for well trained individuals to find holes but that is why i cross train too.

I am certainly not the best I have ever trained with(infact i believe i am the worst), but the late Bill Sosa Sensei made a full believer out of me on several of our training sessions. I have a long way to go, but i know i am better off for practicing The Way .

As for drug use,I ment that the moral question is more about the effect and the affect it has on the dojo and the students. I also believe that training comes along better without it, as i tried many many years ago to reach where i am getting now, dabeling with it. but renounced it years ago as I grew into adulthood. If one can keep it in one's home and like an above post implied, no harm done save to the individual, but the Chief Instructor is obligated to live a life of extream moral weight, as i know i have read O'Sensei thought. (plese don't ask where) i guess i could reread the thirty or so books on the art i have jumped into over the past 11 years. But i swear i read it!

Of course unless i was HIGH then who knows!LOL! Just a joke.

in Aiki
Agatsu!!
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Old 12-03-2002, 07:04 AM   #33
Bruce Baker
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humanities frailties

Since there is not identification of the said drugs, and there is only a cursory description of the situation, this post is but a shadow of someone's imagination.

As for this "Troll" comment ...

BAG IT SLIME BALLS!!!

I am getting sick and tired of this childish kindergarden behavior.

What if there really is a problem because general popuation is smoking/ popping / or imbibing unusual amounts of legal or illegal drugs that is affecting their behavior, but not out side of normal tolerance laws of society?

That is the frailty of humanity, we don't always live up to the morals we espouse, do we?

Many of us have met those teachers who in younger days lived lives like Sammy Davis Jr, who would burn the candle at both ends/ in the middle / and up around the sides, too. Great teachers, but then they were not the Dali Lama either.

Maybe that is why more than 95% of people who practice Aikido have no clue what O'Sensei was trying to enlighten us to, even though he, himself, didn't always know how to put it into words.

Here are some simple words.

Stop whining about how something does not work.

Go try it! Learn its secrets, and stop being so ignorant!

You already have my opinion of name calling without plumbing the depth of the humanities frailties......

Or is "Aiki" only for that hour or so you practice in the dojo?

(My apologies for offending those passing through, but then I didn't take my drugs this morning .... Doooh!)
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Old 12-03-2002, 08:39 AM   #34
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not bas at all!

in Aiki
Agatsu!!
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Old 12-03-2002, 08:40 AM   #35
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i ment bad at all!

in Aiki
Agatsu!!
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Old 12-06-2002, 08:27 AM   #36
Bruce Baker
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Oh? I thought you quoting "Popeye the Sailor" from the Sinbad the sailor cartoon?

While we are on that subject, let's all sing the Sinbad the Sailor song!

1 .... 2 .... 3 .... " Whoos the ...
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Old 12-06-2002, 12:22 PM   #37
REK
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Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote:
Back to the main topic: If the only 'drug' we're talking about here is marijuana, then I think the original unregistered, and all the other 'just say no' armchair psychologists need to get a grip. If you had any idea how widely used pot is, you'd probably have an anyeurism. Pot is used moderately and responsibly by people of every social class, and almost every job type - the proof is that they get their jobs done and you don't even know about it.

It's true that some people use it excessively, and this is usually associated with amotivational, 'loser' behavior, but in this case the behavior is the problem, not the fact that marijuana is the alleged cause.
Just add bit of kerosene to the bonfire, NIDA has funded some research that finds that marijuana use is in fact impairing, and in an insidious way. Some of the myriad of chemicals found in the tetrahydrocannabinols have a remarkably high affinity for the lipids that are concentrated in the hippocampus, which for you smokers out there is the part of your brain that helps encode long-term memory. It is amusing to me that some of the most ardent defenders of pot smoking argue that there is no detrimental effect, when it may be likely that they can't remember how sharp they used to be. So they have no idea what they've lost

To the issue of what to do - follow your heart. If you don't like it, don't train there. Obviously opinions are too diverse to arrive at a single truth regarding what you "should" do.

Rob

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Old 12-06-2002, 12:47 PM   #38
Judd
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I agree with you wholeheartedly. If people want to burn chemically-laced dried plants and inhale the fumes, despite all the harmful effects, I say let 'em. Just call it poetic justice.
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Old 12-07-2002, 01:47 AM   #39
Kevin Wilbanks
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REK,

That's the first time I've heard any strong claim about long-term memory impairment from marijuana use. Are you sure you've interpreted the study properly? Can you cite the specific study and/or give details (e.g., was it a controlled, double-blind study with a placebo group, etc... or field survey, exactly what memory impairments were shown? just showing that chemicals are received somewhere in the brain signifies nothing in itself). Even assuming that NIDA is not a propaganda/agenda driven source (perhaps a big assumption, as the US government has been putting out distorted anti-drug propaganda on illegal/scapegoat drugs for decades), this alleged effect is not even listed by them on their website.

In any case, as long as any drug cannot be shown to cause murderous ramages, I think adult people ought to be free to decide for themselves whether or not to use it. At the very least, the laws against a drug should not be a greater threat to their well-being than the drug itself, which is an Orwellian absurdity that many seem comfortable with. To me the point is about freedom and privacy. I don't accept any paternalistic justifications for the government, employers, or nosy do-gooders prying into the private lives of people who behave responsibly and honorably in their dealings with others and society.

Last edited by Kevin Wilbanks : 12-07-2002 at 01:50 AM.
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Old 12-07-2002, 03:41 PM   #40
REK
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Kevin,

I'm sorry, I don't have that citation. The information was presented to me during a conference on chemical dependency and brain injury - I will look it up for you and email it to you.

I will note that I do so at your request, and not with the intent to change your mind about your stance on the use of marijuana. I believe what I do and respect your right to believe what you do. My concern is not with one's morality, but with one's clarity of mind and body during training. What you do off the mat is none of my affair. When you step on the mat to lay hands on me, it is.

Rob

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Old 12-11-2002, 08:32 PM   #41
Kevin Wilbanks
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Quote:
Rob Klinglesmith (REK) wrote:
My concern is not with one's morality, but with one's clarity of mind and body during training. What you do off the mat is none of my affair. When you step on the mat to lay hands on me, it is.
I'm not sure how this speaks to the problem which I am addressing. If you mean that you will judge my clarity via my actions on the mat, then I agree. If you are saying that this implies that you need to know whether I'm stoned before you train with me... even that's a little grey to me. If you mean that you need to know whether I was stoned last night or last week to judge my clarity, then I say no way. If I can train safely and proficiently after taking a dozen giant bong hits, why should it matter to anyone? If I can't, then the fact that I'm not training responsibly should be the issue, not digging into my blood stream or personal life. I guess I am saying that the clarity or murkiness of my mind and body aren't really your business, even when I'm on the mat, only my behavior is.
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Old 12-12-2002, 12:34 PM   #42
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Quote:
but with one's clarity of mind and body during training
how do you judge on that issue? do you always practice with perfect people, in the peak of their mind and bodies' ability?

personal responsibility and trust are very important, but not so much on nage trusting uke as nage and uke trusting themselves to do the right thing.

behavior is one standard, but I know of one high level shihan who often teaches in spite of sickness, and his spiritual battle every time he steps on the mat , to overcome the weakness of his body/mind is both awesome and inspiring. i understand his ethos is such that he will take a hit if unable to do technique rather than risk uke, loss of face embarassment and all.

thanks GOD for diversity
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Old 12-16-2002, 09:16 AM   #43
Bruce Baker
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Drugs... 60s-70s

Drugs will mess up your life, even if they do expand your mind, been there, done that, do you really want to know about it?

I have been to Jamaica and opened a five gallon pail of the Ganja, rolled it in a lunch bag, done the Cheech and Chong thing for a couple of weekends.

I have visited the halls of Timothy Leary.

I have consumed alcohol until I got drunk by drinking a cup of water, near alcohol poisoning.

Lucky me, I gave up everything but alcohol and tobacco in my early twenties, but it took over ten years to totally get the last vestiges of drugs stored in my fat cells gone, gone, gone so I could be physically free of drug recurrances.

You want to some the wacky weed? I can't stop you. Only injury, death, or your own will power can stop you.

Just don't go crying about your mood swings, your failures, you inability to cope with the problems of life in a more efficient manner, there ain't no love lost for you.

Of course, there is the other end of the scale ... the legal prescription drugs that the middleaged, and old aged take in an attempt to placate the ills of living a hard life, or illnesses that come to visit.

You want drugs?

Wait a few years. All the drugs you could ever want ... or need. Just get depressed, or slightly ill, some syndrome, or any classification of illness and you are set for life!

Do they limit your physical skills, or mental processes, or just the opposite?

Well ... drugs are supposed to be supports for your physical and mental wellbeing while your body is allowed to repair itself. Trying to maintain this well being while creating pain and damage to your body, either damaging the physical body or hindering the mental processes, takes quite a while to repair.

Is that why I don't think like you? Drugs in the late teen and early twenties that warped my thinking processes to consider the many eastern ways over worshiping the Christian doctrines of the Bible thumping, wife swapping, snake handleing, television begging, and Catholic priests who perform lude acts upon young boys?

Now, if you take into consideration the actual morality over the preached morality, we just have to laugh at ourselves.

Aikido practice with a drugged up, mind numbed partner? Nope. Go sit and watch the class. You is gonna hurt yourself or others.

But isn't that also some of the fears that I see carried into some of the forums that some techniques don't work against drugged up crazys?

Changed my mind. Get back on the mat and attack me, you drugged up crazy-you!

Oh. Don't worry sensei. I will be gentle with this drugged up crazy. I wouldn't want the dojo to incur a law suit, or have a death/serious injury that closed the dojo.

What?

Ok.

Off the mat ... drugged up crazy person.
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Old 12-16-2002, 09:23 AM   #44
Bruce Baker
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Seriously though, my present illness is so much more debilatating than I thought it would be, and the real danger of drugs is the loss of judgement, not so much the physical manifestations. I have the physical restrictions, but you must have the mental skills to properly judge not only safety, but be able to make decisions based upon the normal interations of other practitioners.

Little things, like not throwing a spinning back kick that knocks out your partner, or ripping their are to shreds with a real Kotegaeshi, or maybe sweep the knees so hard you injure someone for life ... these and lots of other bad choice scenarios.

Seriously ... isn't that what we are talking about?
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Old 12-16-2002, 09:48 AM   #45
achilleus
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I'm siding with Kevin on more than one point in this conversation. And since I think he's represented what I think already I'll leave my comment to this.

Anyone tauting new research on marijuana effects must either have something to sell or not know the difference. There simply is no study being conducted that can accurately account for neurochemical changes and marijuana. Its easier and cheaper to get a pound of quality cocaine for behavioural studies than it is to acquire a nickel bag of pot. Researchers genuinely interested in establishing facts about marijuana have stince the 70s had three choices: get what the governement will let you have (low grade leaf resin from secret hash farms in Mississippi which you can't get any subject to willingly consume), go out on the street and risk your public and professional reputation by getting it the way everyone else does, or fake the results based on presupposed conditions or similar/analogous biochemical responses to other drugs.

"It is amusing to me that some of the most ardent defenders of pot smoking argue that there is no detrimental effect, when it may be likely that they can't remember how sharp they used to be."

I think this is extremely cycnical and I hope the author isn't a researcher because its this kind of bias thats left the doors wide open to the kind of hypocritical legislation that prevents adults from making reasonable decisions.

What is truly amusing is that people condemn a plant for possibly hastening the eventual memory loss indemic to the human condition (sorry, the hippocampus dones't last forever) after a good nights drinking their innards away.

Please don't suggest any possible negative effects of marijauana - its not a good enough reason - alcohol will always be a far nastier vice.

just my budding behavioural neuroscience opinion,

DA

(thats dopamine if your neuropsychopharmaphunky)
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Old 12-16-2002, 12:25 PM   #46
REK
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A different perspective

Turn this on its head. I don't deny you your powers of self-determination. Smoke if you want. I am not in the business of trying to force my opinion on you. But answer this:

Why do you use at all?

The internal need or desire for a chemically-induced altered state of conscious is suggestive. But I don't want to make any assumptions. Just give me a few good reasons why one would want to use.

Oh - and don't worry, I am not a researcher.

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Old 12-16-2002, 01:35 PM   #47
achilleus
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Re: A different perspective

Quote:
Rob Klinglesmith (REK) wrote:
Turn this on its head. I don't deny you your powers of self-determination. Smoke if you want. I am not in the business of trying to force my opinion on you. But answer this:

Why do you use at all?

The internal need or desire for a chemically-induced altered state of conscious is suggestive. But I don't want to make any assumptions. Just give me a few good reasons why one would want to use.

Oh - and don't worry, I am not a researcher.
To eliminate any assumptions you may be operating on - I am no longer a "user" of the drug in question. I am a researcher (albeit on a brief bill paying hiatus from PhD program) in behavioural neuroscience. The research just doesn't support most of your opinions/prejudices. In fact, the prevelant point of view is that using marijuana (specifically, this does not apply to heroin nor cocaine) is no more destructive and no less preferential than eating chocolate.

So I could ask you why you eat chocolate and neither of us could hold a moral 'high' ground over the other for our reasons.

Again, why do anything? the oxidizing effects of beathing contribute to more cellular destruction than a few years of pot brownies.

Unlike alcohol, marijuana has an attached social stigma tightly connected to the political right. Remember, we tried prohibition on alcohol before. Unfortunately, big brother got his hands on marijuana early on.

Another way of looking at this is, what legitimacy does your question have?

What answer for doing something can a person give that would come close to satisfying?

Would you accept a preferential answer: "I like it."

Medical: "It helps reduce the pain of the drug coctail my 12 doctors have prescribed me for AIDS/cancer treatment."

loony: "cuz its kewl, dude."

religious: "as a practicing religious for 30 years in obscure aesthetic forms I have come to the conclusion that salvation necessitates mild halucinations."

Behaviourally, people come to a drug with a propensity for something. Addiction, lethargy/apathy, depression, etc. Even alcohol will activate these predispositions.

But to address your final thought, "The internal need or desire for a chemically-induced altered state of conscious is suggestive" - of course! its fascinating! haven't you ever thumped your head after realizing the latent power and ultimate individuality of your mind in its self creative potential? We talk about the meaning of "our dreams" as if we dreamed them. Sorry, the mind was recreating reality for its own amusement - it doesn't need us anymore. With enough unprocessed, preconscious imagery and sense-memory of the world our mind can recreate it in any fashion it chooses. Oftentimes scary, sometimes thought provoking and occasionally genius, our minds are strangers to us. I am not trying to over-romanticize the "Altered States" phenomenon - but I do recognize that there are many paths to understanding; some of them are pleasurable, fun and sometimes the best reason for going on the ride is because we want to and we have the choice.

Besides, Behavioural Neuroscience begins with the supposition that there are mechanisms for behaviour - and as researchers we try to find those mechanisms to better understand people and how we think. Ever wondered why the brain has naturally occuring cannibinoid receptors? And that these receptors are found in great abundance along the mesodopaminergic pathway (source of pleasure and happy thoughts)?

Naturally occuring cannibinoid receptors!

Why smoke marijuana?

Because our brains are hardwired for it!

DA
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Old 12-16-2002, 02:10 PM   #48
achilleus
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I reported in a previous email that the Government hash farms were in Mississippi; in retrospect I cannot recall if it is Miss. or Alabama. When I tried to look up the email sent to me from my department I found a tag in which it had been deleted from my ISPs server, "With love, Att. Gen. Ashcroft".

(mucho sarcasm)

But, I would like to state that I do not advocate aikidoka-tokin' up before practice, nor parents getting lit before driving the kids to soccer games. I do not think that life will wind up less interesting or somehow inadequate without the occasional bong, but I do think that there are more choices people need to be grilled on rather than what plant they prefer to injest (why do you prefer basil to oregano?).

peace - with or without the pot,

DA
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Old 12-16-2002, 05:20 PM   #49
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I thought Aikido is about becoming a "blank slate". Acting on things without making assumptions or judgments and that's all I've been reading in this thread. Drugs or drug use are not inherently good or bad. Many of the drugs that are illegal today (I'm referring to the USA, because different things are illegal in different places) have been in use for thousands of years and have only been looked down upon for the last hundred years or so.

Just for the record drug use is not harmful or unhealthy drug abuse is. Abuse of anything is for that matter. If his Sensei is breaking the law or engaged in behavior that makes him uncomfortable he should find help for his Sensei or another dojo depending on the situation.

This aikidoka needs more information. If he truly likes where he is training and respects his Sensei then he must ask him without assumption and judgment to find the truth. You don't show someone respect by avoiding or ignoring a situation or behavior that bothers you. If he is a good teacher he will appreciate your candor.
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Old 12-20-2002, 06:55 AM   #50
Bruce Baker
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Do you smoke tobacco?

Do you drink Alcohol?

Stop it for a year and see if there is a change in both your physical as well as mental capacity.

The body's dependancy upon drugs, even mild drugs, will take anywhere from six months to a year to allow the cravings or effects from chemical dependancy to abate.

Proven studies of needing a cigarette to think, or produce endorfins to stimulate the brain were the conclusive evidence in the mid 1990s to my proven experience of having smoked and inhaled, unlike some politicians.

Nicotine to lesson the craving?

AA to help you through your troubled time "One day at a time"?

Pot will mess up your brain like scrambled eggy weggys on a hot skillet?

Stop all your drugs for a year and see if you are different both physically and mentally.

Otherwise, if your brain is wacky, how can you even have a conversation in this forum without taking a drink, getting a hit off the pipe, or lighting up that tobacco to get those thinking endorfins going?
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