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Old 11-13-2002, 01:38 PM   #26
Irony
Dojo: Aikido Center of Atlanta
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Also, you have to take into consideration that generally, the speed at which you attack will determine the speed of the technique. If you are a beginner, more than likely it wouldn't benefit you to power through the moves without going slow first. It takes time to learn the forms flawlessly and smoothly, the latter being the most important. Full-speed attacks have their place but I wouldn't want to try it until I had a few years under my belt. It's both for safety and for learning purposes. Also, though I haven't trained in any other art, it's my understanding that even people with great experience in other arts have difficulty with the way aikido works. I've seen black belts from different arts come in and have more trouble than some beginners. So perhaps you should discuss your feelings with your sensei and try to figure out whether or not changing schools would benefit you in the long run.

This may also just be a case of being in an unfamiliar training environment.

Chris Pasley
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Old 11-13-2002, 06:49 PM   #27
L. Camejo
 
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Grr! Re: re

Quote:
Ron Marshall (ronmar) wrote:
... I think this is silly when I can already do judo and other things quite well.

...What is the problem people have with resistance vs techniques.



...Why not build up balance, timing speed and sensitivity through sparring.
Sounds like you need some Shodokan my friend

Check out these linnks, visit one of these dojos and remember...

RESISTANCE IS FUTILE

Happy Training.

L.C.
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--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 11-13-2002, 07:30 PM   #28
PeterR
 
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Himeji is a gorgeous castle city an hour south of Osaka station on a fast train. I live a further 20 minutes on the local. Just to make you exceedingly jealous I have yet to count them but I estimate I have 350 high grade Judo mats in my class. Good luck in finding a place though, it took me awhile when I was in Quebec but taking your time is worth it. I ended up teaching at a local college.
Quote:
Sam Benson (Sam) wrote:
Hi Peter,

I occasionally post here, but I've been up to my ears in my first postdoc. Whereabouts is Himeji? I will probably be in Japan in the next three years, but before I do that, I have to pay for my last trip!! I am about to take the plunge and start a dojo with Jo under the wing of P. Nukecome, but the problem as ever is finding a good facility....

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 11-14-2002, 02:59 AM   #29
Matt Whyte
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I agree with the guy that was talking about giving strong Aikido attacks in order to therefore receive them. Ron, I was curious, how much of a 'relative newcomer' are you? If your views on Aikido are that it is not effective, watch a yudansha class, and see just how effective it really is. See, the purpose of Aikido training is to give Aikidoka the aiki priciples, and then allow them to apply them in the way they see fit to their particular situation. I can understand that as a newcomer you maybe frustrated by the slowness and technicality of the style, but these things will give you a strong baase for excellent technique in the future. Stay with it my friend. It is worth it, every moment.

Stay Strong.
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Old 11-14-2002, 04:32 AM   #30
erikmenzel
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Re: I don't get aikido training method.

Quote:
Ron Marshall (ronmar) wrote:
As a relative newcomer to aikido I have found it very different to other martial arts I have done, and, to be honest, am finding it hard to adapt to aikido training.
Ever considered the idea that that might be your problem and your fault! Maybe you started with some expectations both towards your own skill as towards aikido that were not completely in sync with reality.
Quote:
It is not that I think aikido is a fundamentally bad martial art. In fact I think a lot of the ideas are good. It is the training method that I have problems with.

For example there is no attack in aikido. I feel this is the biggest flaw. Often the best way to resolve a conflict is by attacking first. Aikido does not allow for this.
Is that true?? As far as I understand it there is absolutly no reason one cannot take initiative in aikido.
Quote:
Another problem is the sort of idealised attacks and cooperation from partners that you find in aikido. People say this helps them to react in the right way when under stress, but how do they know this if they never train with realism or aliveness.
Here there are two basic problems. First of all they are normal attacks. Just because they dont agree with your idea about violance and "normal" (TM) attacks does not make them weird either. I have, for instance, seen that grabbing the upper sleeve and striking is in violant situation indeed very very common.

Second is that all techniques and speeds have to be adjusted to the level of both partners, especialy the level of ukemi. I know not all Judoka are the same, but I have seen already a few judo shodan that were very proud on there ability to do breakfalls, but who when doing aikido realy had problems with ukemi, both from a technical points as from a perspective point of view. If falling on the ground becomes losing than the mind may think it to be legitimate to avoid this at all cost. One should realize that judo competition is in that respect an even more stylized and unrealistic enviroment were things that might occure are limited by a set of rules. No rules in Aikido (and therefor the concept of cheating does not exist in Aikido). Even biting and spitting are ok (although I must say that I havenot been to a dojo were they also practised these things). Thus ukemi is transformed from not losing in a contest to surviving in a no rules situation. I normaly train very slowly with judoka, as nage to keep them safe, as uke because they are even with there judotraining quite often clueless. If you can only do ukemi at 7 mph you should not attack at 70 mph.
Quote:
The third problem I have is the lack of sparring or randori in aikido. There is randori of a sort but it never involves the sort of attacks a regular person might make and isn't exactly athletic, i.e. it doesn‘t involve a struggle like you might get in a fight with a resisting opponent.
Well, if you want contest, go look in a Shodokan dojo. If it is judocontests you want then go do judo and dont complain that aikido is different from judo!!
Quote:
How can aikido training be complete when there is no stress in the training. People say that you fight how you train, and there is plenty of stress and tiring activity in a fight. Aikido people never test themselves in competition or otherwise so how can they be sure that what they are doing is worthwhile? Aikido training is quite relaxing even. How is this good preparation for fighting?

What are peoples opinions on this, especially people who have done a competitive full contact martial art prior to aikido.
Aikido has its own training manners and own context. Of course there are plenty of schools were they train in a "weird" way from my perspective. Still I detect some I am right, I studied Judo and respect my (shodan) authority. It does not work that way.

If you only flew in airoplanes before and take a look at the bus you might definitly see it has no wings, it cannot fly and it does not travel as fast. That is the way it should be. No sense complaining about it. It is different.

You dont have to like aikido. If judo makes you happy and then go and do that. No sense in sticking in Aikido and claiming it is incomplete and misses a lot of things you think judo can offer you, because that simply means you are in the wrong place.

Erik Jurrien Menzel
kokoro o makuru taisanmen ni hirake
Personal:www.kuipers-menzel.com
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Old 11-14-2002, 12:02 PM   #31
opherdonchin
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Yeah, I have the same sort of responses as Eric Knoops did, but I'll express them a little differently:

Ron, I was unclear from your posts why it was that you took up AiKiDo and what you were hoping to learn. It's very hard for me to evaluate how the difficulties you are having with the way they train in your dojo are likely to interfere with these goals because I'm not sure what they are. Could you post again, please, and tell us a little bit more about what you were hoping to find in AiKiDo that had been missing for you in Judo?

Yours in Aiki
Opher
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Old 11-16-2002, 10:00 AM   #32
ronmar
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Thanks for all the suggestions. I might try a bit of Tomiki aikido, it looks more like what I am after.

I guess my main problem could be that I still think of myself primarily as someone who does judo/grappling. The reason I train in other things is to attempt to gain a basic level of proficiency in all types of fighting so I am not surprised by anything. I plan to compete in mixed events. I thought aikido might be something unusual to try.

I do like aikido. I think the techniques are good. Sorry if that didn't come across in my original posts. Its just that I get frustrated. Its not that I think I am better than everyone else, I just feel that in some ways I am capable of training a little harder than I am presently allowed to. Unfortunately, people see my lack of aikido "form" and take it to mean that I am totally clueless and have to be treated with kid gloves. I do not tell them how I feel because I don't want to put people on the defensive when I am trying to learn from them. But then they get angry when I can retain my balance and not fall over. They are more pleased with my progress when I fake it, jump onto my back and slap the mat.

Similarly I know I can launch a good attack.

This also seems to cause problems with training partners because they often complain I am not "committing" to my attacks. This is unconcious on my part and is not an attempt to test them or make them look bad. Its just the way I learned to attack prior to aikido so I didn't get thrown or countered. Anyone who has trained with contact in a will do the same.

Aikido does not have live training so how do I know that which techniques will work and which will not when someone reacts in an unexpected way. ie I want to try and use some aikido techniques in mixed events, but how can I get good at them when I feel like the training I receive is not good preparation for a fight. Its a no win situation.

If there was a randori component to the class I wouldn't mind training soft when learning the techniques. But as it is people in the aikido class judge ability not on what you can actually do (randori/sparring/whatever), but on a techniques demonstration with more/less resistance. Its hard to know when to cooperate and when to resist. Those who do exactly what they are told tend to do well regardless of whether they can or cannot fight, and some of them surely can't.
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Old 11-16-2002, 11:44 AM   #33
SeiserL
 
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IMHO, all training methods are in some sense artificial and simulations. The only way to know is to really get into a fight.

Most reality stylist will probably tell you that it is less about your style or training method than it is about your personal psychology and willingness to fight that makes the biggest difference.

Until again,

Lynn

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 11-16-2002, 01:53 PM   #34
Bruce Baker
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Determination to learn

I am sorry you are having such a hard time getting the rythym of Aikido, but I know how you feel, as I too, tell myself to be gentle when practicing Aikido.

There will rarely, if ever, be rock'em sock 'em Aikido practice ... this is for a couple of reasons.

The stronger the attack, the more energy that must be dissappated, and so the margin for error, the cause of most disabling injurys, is drastically increased.

If you have done full force Judo, they you should be acquainted with the redirection of oncoming energy, and using that energy against itself. Maybe your experience was to use as much physical force as necessary, overlooking the use of technically proficient Jujitsu, which is found in many Judo and Aikido techniques.

A lot of Aikido's sttrength is using the oblique angles, taking away the balance, and using manipulations that cause pain and can cause injury, that should be right up your alley if you want to learn to be a good fighter without throwing about sacks of potatoes?

Don't listen to those whining little weasels who tell you to quit Aikido, they are just trying to use reverse psychology to get you motivated. Learning the secrets hidden within Judo will start to come out with continued Aikido training.

If it doesn't, maybe you should reexamine what you have learned, and find out why manipulation causes pain through pressure points to awaken the knowledge you need to get back into Aikido.

I have been where you are, and it does take a bit of time to integrate what you know with what you need to know to blend Aikido into you martial arts training.

Give it some time. Look for the pressure points in the classic techniques, they will be there in the openings for strikes, manipulations, and, your old friend, sweeps or low kicks

Enough of this for now.

Hey, Peter Rehse, you haven't come across a fellow named Carl Baldini?

He went to Japan a little over a year ago, trained with me and my friend David Hulse sensei, he took up Aikido. If, by chance you do, tell him to dash off a letter.

I have seen stranger things happen.

As for you Ron Marshall, look into the heart of martial arts, pressure points, and see if you are not awakened to Aikido's secrets hidden in the open.
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Old 11-16-2002, 06:22 PM   #35
opherdonchin
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Ron, it's great that you are looking around for ways to improve your proficiency in mxied events. I'm not sure that AiKiDo is meant to be an answer to this need, and I'm not sure that it will provide you much of an answer. My thoughts are similar to Lynn's. To wit, mixed events competition is a very artificial scenario that AiKiDo was, to a large extent, specifically designed to ignore and overlook. That's my take, although you can find a lot of different takes on this question in the long thread on AiKiDo and the cage. It sounds like what your looking for is something that an art like jiu jitsu would be more likely to provide. The techniques are very similar, but the approach is more focused on the preconceived idea of what constitutes being 'martial' that you seem to be interested in.

Yours in Aiki
Opher
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Old 11-16-2002, 09:14 PM   #36
mattholmes
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I think a lot of good things have been said regarding your concerns about the "combat" effectiveness of your aikido training, Ron.

I don't know that I have too much more to say, however, I will offer the following:

Envision a whole new approach to communication - something like sign language. While sharing definite characteristics with spoken language, sign is very different from other languages, than, say, English is from Spanish.

This is like aikido. The PURPOSE of aikido, the GOAL, is very different than your classical judo (and many other martial arts).

In respect to your being treated with "kid gloves," consider that the positive reinforcement offered you when you so-easily fall down, EVEN WHEN YOU COULD HAVE STAYED AND FAUGHT, may not be so far off. Your teachers may be trying to show you another way to be. You do not always have to show your superiority.

What if, one day, someone walks up to you and punches you. You, as a competent fighter, could easily overcome them, possibly with out seriously harming them. However, instead, you overreact, clutching your face in pretended pain. They may stop then, seeing the destruction they cause. If they do not, you can always resort to your nage skills.

"But what about another person they might victimize? Don't I have to teach them my way of nonviolence?" I hope you have the opportunity. But no one will learn if they do not want to - even you. So in the meantime, consider leaving the people you come into contact with unharmed - leave them with a joyful heart, even if you disagree with the validity of the cause.

The Aikido may be trying to teach you to loose.

Guess I kinda got going there. Sorry.

Matt
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Old 11-16-2002, 09:27 PM   #37
Edward
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I recommend that you read the following article:

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article...?ArticleID=768

Cheers,
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Old 11-17-2002, 10:03 AM   #38
ian
 
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Quote:
Lynn Seiser (SeiserL) wrote:
IMHO, all training methods are in some sense artificial and simulations. The only way to know is to really get into a fight.
The problem with martial arts training - whatever it is - is it is not real self defence. In Judo, punches and kicks (and certain throws and attacks to the face)are not allowed; in karate/taekwondo (competition) padding is worn (making strikes to pressure points ineffective). Even in these 'ultimate' fighting scenarios you are not allowed to have several people attacking at once, rear attacks (unless you run around!) or throat grabs.

Aikido takes a different format - anything is allowed. However, to ensure we actually learn something and don't always get injured, we train in a repetitive and cooperative way. Consider your partner as a moving training dummy. If you want to try techniques with resistence, try them - but make sure the your partner is aware of this (and capable of dealing with this, so that one of you can give in before anything breaks).

Ian
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Old 11-17-2002, 04:50 PM   #39
eric carpenter
 
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something ive always been told is that if we did aikido properly the fight would be over in the blink of an eye bang bang finished,a lot of what we practice is after the atemi has been landed(a lot of people seem to forget atemi)as ueshiba said 70 % of aikido is atemi.i found aikido very difficult to learn at first and still now it has many surprises and an infinite variety of moves ,theories,techniques etc.

my dojo has a lot of people who have trained in other arts and i think this can only improve knowledge plus it is a good idea to have an understanding of other arts.

what i like about japanese arts is that there is a complete repetoire,kendo,iaido,judo,jujitsu,karate,aiki jutsu,etci think this is a good thing and if i had time would practice them all,but to have some knowledge is interesting.

something i read is that the strongest state is a relaxed state,i take this to mean aware and not tense but ready.

we train the body to react quicker than the eyes or mind so if something does happen your body reacts.

a nice story i was told was of a extremly upset person who was going to punch a glass mirro,the aikido practicionercaught her arm before contact swung her around and landed her on a soft object nearby,is this the sword that saves,any way i enjoy aikido and intend

to train and train till i no longer can,
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Old 11-17-2002, 08:32 PM   #40
Young-In Park
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Dear Mr. Marshall,

I do not tell them how I feel because I don't want to put people on the defensive when I am trying to learn from them. But then they get angry when I can retain my balance and not fall over. They are more pleased with my progress when I fake it, jump onto my back and slap the mat.

"The attacker just takes the fall" is a common complaint about Aikido and/or Aikido training methods. So in an attempt to inject more "realism," attackers struggle, resist or just stand waiting for the defender to execute a technique. In addition to frustrating a partner and "proving" Aikido doesn't work, many people fail to grasp the lessons of simply "taking the fall."

As an attacker IN THE BEGINNING STAGES OF TRAINING, you "fake it, jump onto your back and slap the mat" because you are learning sensitivity (For others, they first have to learn how to fall properly).

There are many exercises, drills or training methods in Aikido (or any martial art) that at first glance are really silly.

Another common criticism about Aikido is its dance-like nature (aka Aiki Dance) that's devoid of any martial aspect.

But as you "dance around," the attacker moves all by themselves because they are falling away from danger, counterattack, preserve the option to reverse the technique and/or control their landing.

Regardless of what you're doing during ukemi, in all cases, you're learning the principles of redirecting energy (you're own) and controlling your center. (When I told a high school girl the four reasons why an uke takes the fall, she told me what you're really learning/doing...).

[b]Aikido does not have live training so how do I know that which techniques will work and which will not when someone reacts in an unexpected way. ie I want to try and use some aikido techniques in mixed events, but how can I get good at them when I feel like the training I receive is not good preparation for a fight. Its a no win situation.[/B}

So after you've learned sensitivity, redirecting energy and controlling your own center, then you can apply those skills as a defender - that's the direct benefit to "simply taking the falls."

For example, "when someone reacts in an unexpected way," you can "feel" your partner and do a different technique if they resist. This is another stage of training.

There was a similar discussion on another Aikido message board. Some people were wondering about Aikido's training methods.

So I rhetorically asked the following question: Since they are not an accurate reflection of a lethal force encounter, why do people learn how to shoot guns at a shooting range shooting at stationary paper targets that don't shoot back?

A police firearms instructor wrote the following reply:

--------------

Young In Park,

I am sorry that I have not been able to address your post in a more timely manner. Quite ironically, much of my recent time has been spent running squads through bi-annual firearms qualifications. I believe this question is somewhat rhetorical and thus why it has yet to be addressed. You seem to have already made up your mind and thus your understanding of the topic. I will, however, attempt to shed some light on the subject and try to clear up any questions you may have.

First, to whom do refer to as recruits; military, police? You do not make that clear. Do you mean police recruits and if so you seem to be fixated on the initial stage of training. Please correct me if I am wrong, I believe you are of the opinion that shooting at a range is somewhat of a waste of time.

Well the answer is actually somewhat complicated. Your post refers to "recruits" so I will attempt to shed some light on this stage of training.

Recruit firearms training, the recruit must learn and be proficient in the following areas:

1) Proper techniques of drawing, weapon presentation, holstering.

2) Proper stance, firing positions.

3) Proper grip (both one handed and two handed).

4) Proper target acquisition and sight picture / alignment (use of sights differs at different ranges).

5) Proper trigger control (open / closed breaks).

6) Proper follow through / threat assessment.

7) Proper reloading / tactical reloading techniques.

8) Proper clearing and assessment of weapon malfunctions.

9) Proper use of cover and change of firing positions accordingly.

10) Proper firing techniques for low light conditions / proper use of flashlight.

Any one of these could actually be a full course. To move on, the shooter must be able to be proficient in double taps, triples, etc. All this means nothing without consistency and shot placement!!! Consistency equals accuracy!! This is of course a controlled environment, if you can't do it at the range, you can't do it under stress!!

As in any martial art, how do you expect to train in "scenarios" without mastering the basics? And believe it or not, the basics are difficult to "master." The basics are like kata. The recruit must be able to do all this before he would move on to a higher level of training. And to complicate matters, there simply isn't the time (money) to stress higher-level training until the basics are mastered.

After the recruit completes this type of training, then he can benefit from scenarios, F.A.T.S. (video simulations), and simunitions (live scenario training using soap bullets).

So yes, if someone was to "only" and "always" train by shooting at paper targets, you could argue your point. But even try to place a time limit on your shooting exercise and test your shot placement (i.e., double tap to the body, one to the head -- in 4 seconds from holster and do it consistently). How about the "simple" exercise of headshots at 25 yards with no support or shooting while walking? After you have mastered the above, let me know, then we can move on to the shotgun. I hope this helps.

Ted Howell (NJ DCJ Firearms Inst.)

Daito-ryu Study Group

Baltimore, Maryland

-------------------

Happy Training!

YoungIn Park
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Old 11-18-2002, 05:49 AM   #41
DavidEllard
Dojo: Dunstable/Dinton
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Hi Ron, I have just registered so I can respond to you here!

You say you are moving to Luton soon, ignoring the obvious question of why, I wanted to invite you to our Dojo in Dunstable.

(http://www.aikido-ksk.org - look for dunstable. OR just email me direct.)

Now i'm not sure if we are training the way you want to, in fact i fairly sure we aren't, but it would be pleasure to welcome you.

Let me explain:

We train primarily in, what can be easily be described as a kata, placing as much emphasise on the role of Uke being alive and keeping themselves safe as possible. We have adopted this approach from Endo Shihan and a number of scandanavian instructors: Jan Nevelius, Jorma Lyly are two whose names i can spell(!)

Our idea, I think, is more than just learning some techniques for self defense, it is... emphasising the 'do' syllable. Setting goals that may take many years to achieve, may never be acheived, about being able to control and attackers body completely no matter how they may attack.

We train soft much (but not all) the time. Not only does this allow us to learn, some things becoming instinctive through repetition but also relates to this long term aim. Not breaking people allows us to turn more and train longer. We training in good humour for the same reason, we intend to do this for a long time, lets enjoy it.

Do rember though what other people have said though, aiki techniques can be absolutely devistating and what we learn unquestionalby has defensive benefits. That just isn't the

sole reason for doing it...

Come along and see what you think - we have dan grades from Karate-do as well as Iado and other weapon based arts with us, they have all found something to enjoy in our way of training.

Hoping to here form you...

yours,

David
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Old 11-18-2002, 06:01 AM   #42
paw
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Lynn,
Quote:
Most reality stylist will probably tell you that it is less about your style or training method than it is about your personal psychology and willingness to fight that makes the biggest difference.
You've trained with Peyton Quinn, haven't you? Doesn't his training method better prepare someone for real world self-defense than a "traditional" martial arts class, because it encompasses psychology and willingness to fight?

Bulletman suit training isn't static, it's dynamic and alive, isn't it? If static training was all that was needed, why would Quinn et al, ever use Bulletman suits?

Ian,
Quote:
If you want to try techniques with resistence, try them - but make sure the your partner is aware of this (and capable of dealing with this, so that one of you can give in before anything breaks).
Some arts/styles do this nearly every class. It's usually called sparring, rolling, pummelling, you know, randori.

Young-In-Park,
Quote:
Since they are not an accurate reflection of a lethal force encounter, why do people learn how to shoot guns at a shooting range shooting at stationary paper targets that don't shoot back?
Why do boxers hit the heavy bag? Conditioning, repetition, attribute development. But boxers eventually spar. Just like tactical shooters eventually use FATS and simunition for scenarios and force on force training.

No one is saying there isn't a place for static training (unless I've misunderstood someone's post). No one is saying that aikido doesn't work (again, unless I've misunderstood someone's post). The original question, as I understand it to this point is: how much static training is necessary and when should dynamic training begin?

Regards,

Paul
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Old 11-18-2002, 08:05 AM   #43
Kevin Wilbanks
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Just to reiterate David's point, and one I've made many times before: there is a lot more to Aikido than self-defense. If all you can see in Aikido is it's potential to help you in some hypothetical fight at some indeterminate date in the future, is it really worth spending hours and hours per week for the rest of your life on? To me, Aikido practice is so rich with various possiblities for exploration and development that reducing the whole thing down to whether it 'works' for self-defense indicates a sad, narrow... reductionist point of view. For me, the fact that Aikido has self-defense applications in a certain set of situations is more like a fringe benefit.

Last edited by Kevin Wilbanks : 11-18-2002 at 08:07 AM.
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Old 11-18-2002, 09:35 AM   #44
Jason Tonks
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I believe at heart that Aikido training polishes people's character with a view to developing the spirit of both ourselves and those we train with. We realize through training a paradox of how powerful and how fragile human beings are. It is up to the practicioner to bring the techniques to life. Regarding self defence Aikido gets a lot of bad press thrown at it. It doesn't matter whether you do Thai Boxing, Karate, Tae Kwon Do, it's all can fly out the window when someone "puts it on you" out there. As the quote from O'Sensei goes, it's your spirit that is your true shield.

All the best

Jason T
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Old 11-18-2002, 03:59 PM   #45
ronmar
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More good replies, but I'm afraid I dont have a lifetime to spend doing aikido. I am more dedicated to other things, so sadly I will probably never see the full scope of aikido training.

I am just looking to integrate some aikido stuff into my other training, and am finding it hard to do, because aikido doesn't train in a way I really believe in. For example:
Quote:
Aikido takes a different format - anything is allowed. However, to ensure we actually learn something and don't always get injured, we train in a repetitive and cooperative way.
- I just don't agree that I can get anything from training this way. I (personally) feel that I have to try a technique many times in a sparring situation before I will feel comfortable with it. Its very easy to throw a cooperative partner in judo or hit a bag in boxing, but anyone who has done either of these knows that sparring/randori is completely different. I the former you get used to the basic physial moves of the technique, build power and speed. The latter are much harder to get good at and require timing, reading of an opponent, experience, and determination.

I dont demand that you all train this way, do what you feel is right. I am just trying to say how I feel about something that is a problem for me.
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Old 11-18-2002, 04:17 PM   #46
shihonage
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Quote:
Jason Tonks wrote:
It doesn't matter whether you do Thai Boxing, Karate, Tae Kwon Do, it's all can fly out the window when someone "puts it on you" out there. As the quote from O'Sensei goes, it's your spirit that is your true shield.
If you do Thai Boxing, you'll beat the snot out of most Aikido practitioners who sit around the forums and lament about how fragile is human life and how their spirit is their true shield.
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Old 11-18-2002, 07:01 PM   #47
PeterR
 
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Hi Aleksey;

Agreed, well sort of. A few weeks ago I met a reedy guy who did Thai Boxing and was going on about your same point. There is a difference between doing X and DOING X. There were a few Aikidoists within a 30m radius that could have had him for breakfast.

That said I have to agree with Kevin in that there are a number of reasons for doing Aikido and not all of them winning a "street fight". When I work on technique it helps me to understand how to turn it into nasty but the primary reason I train is because I like the training. We have a guest from Northern Ireland who, much to his protestations to the contrary, is fixated on fighting. I am sure he could use Aikido to great effect and he seems relatively happy with the training. Of course our training is a wee bit different from much Aikido out there but even here some equally capable Aikidoists are saying that for his sake, I hope his eyes get opened while he's here.

Maturity has a lot to do with it.
Quote:
Aleksey Sundeyev (shihonage) wrote:
If you do Thai Boxing, you'll beat the snot out of most Aikido practitioners who sit around the forums and lament about how fragile is human life and how their spirit is their true shield.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 11-18-2002, 08:00 PM   #48
YEME
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Red face FIGHTING

I'm relatively new to aikido too and its people who are there to fight/resist/strain that impede my training.

I recently had one student about to be graded 'teach' me that I was doing things incorrectly by resisting. I ended up with bruising on my arms and not from falling. And to top it off I felt like the lesson had been wasted. I learnt no technique. I just had someone try to show how good he was and how little I knew. Aside from being discouraging I felt it didn't represent the art I had chosen. If I wanted to 'fight' i would have gone to my BJJ or kickboxing class instead.

Were you in aikido to fight or to learn? It is an art and not one that is aquired quickly. (as I'm slowly and painfully learning)

I took Aikido for possibly the exact opposite reason you did. I needed to focus and calm down.

." once you throw a punch, you have both lost the fight".
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Old 11-19-2002, 02:44 AM   #49
Jason Tonks
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Shihonage, I'm not lamenting about anything mate. I'm just stating facts. When I talk about spirit I mean guts and courage not God and the Universe.

All the best

Jason T
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Old 11-19-2002, 02:57 AM   #50
Jason Tonks
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Having said that you are right Shihonage, having done Muay Thai for about a year or so, the sheer ferocity of these practicioners would psyche out the vast majority of most Martial Artists.

All the best

Jason T
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