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Old 10-29-2002, 01:59 AM   #1
Ta Kung
Join Date: Apr 2001
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Strangest doka yet?

Quote:
Causing the perverted enemy to attack, I must then stand behind his form
And so cut the enemy down.
Perverted enemy? I must say that I've yet to read a doka that I've understand. How do I interprete these strange poems?

/Patrik
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Old 10-29-2002, 02:41 AM   #2
ian
 
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Reading a Japanes text translated into English does make them sound a bit odd, but it must be even harder if English isn't your 1st language - I think when he refers to 'perverted' he means the attacker is not one with the movement of the universe. Thus this can be redressed by moving behind him and cutting him down.

Ian

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
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Old 10-29-2002, 03:58 AM   #3
mike lee
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extreme circumstances

A perverted enemy is often bent on violence to the point of being suicidal.

Knowing full well that he is evil, in the wrong, and with no desire or hope for redemption, he willingly attacks an enemy that will surely cut him down.

The Buddhists say that to kill such a person is not a sin, provided one has the proper mindset.

To act in an overly self-rightous manner and take delight in such killing would create negative karma, a point that seems to be lost on small-minded pseudo martial artists who lack even the most basic level of emotional maturity.

(Be careful what you dispise, lest you become it.)

Last edited by mike lee : 10-29-2002 at 04:02 AM.
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Old 10-29-2002, 04:26 AM   #4
erikmenzel
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Well, to me often life, the world and aikido training dont make much sense anyway. SO why should doka that reflect these things make sense to me??

Erik Jurrien Menzel
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Old 10-29-2002, 06:59 AM   #5
REK
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Re: extreme circumstances

Quote:
Mike Lee (mike lee) wrote:
A perverted enemy is often bent on violence to the point of being suicidal.

Knowing full well that he is evil, in the wrong, and with no desire or hope for redemption, he willingly attacks an enemy that will surely cut him down.
Although I tend to agree, I feel compelled to point out that it has been considered honorable in many cultures to willingly fight to your death in a battle you know you will lose. I hesitate on the "knowing full well that he is evil". That's the problem. Truly evil people tend not to think they are.
Quote:
To act in an overly self-rightous manner and take delight in such killing would create negative karma, a point that seems to be lost on small-minded pseudo martial artists who lack even the most basic level of emotional maturity.

(Be careful what you dispise, lest you become it.)
I absolutely agree with this. I think that those who seek martial skills just to become, tough, bad or fearsome are at root immature. I met a Marine who once said "No sane person likes to fight. But somebody has to know how"

Rob

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Old 10-29-2002, 08:29 PM   #6
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Well said Mike.

I like what Patten said. "The object is not to die for your country, but to make the other dumb bastard die for his."

As a martial artist and a military tactician, I firmly believe that you never should try and fight a battle that you know you will lose. While it may be honorable to defend yourself, family, and country, sometimes it is better to walk away from a fight and come back another day when the odds are more in your favor. I know that there are many examples that can prove that this is not always possible....but I believe in most cases there are alternatives to fighting that can be explored to allow you to fight on your own terms. Many times our ego and anger prevent us from seeing them though!

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Old 10-30-2002, 02:59 AM   #7
ian
 
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The reason why evil people don't think they are, is that 'evil' is a word used to dehumanise an enemy and justify the killing/exploitation of them. For example, in the allied (me being from the UK) attack of Okinawa the Japanese civilians committed suicide because of their fear of the evil U.S. The taliban are evil to Americans, the Palestinians are evil to Israelis, the Pope is evil to Protestants, the U.S. is evil to Cubans.

People might me selfish, exploitative, be uneducated, vengeful, unware, mentally ill, or have no moral concionse but no-one is evil. Evil is a word used by people promoting propaganda or in comic books.

Ian

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Old 10-30-2002, 03:16 AM   #8
ian
 
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Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
As a martial artist and a military tactician, I firmly believe that you never should try and fight a battle that you know you will lose.
I understand the sentiment (and is very much the approach animals usually take*). HOWEVER I believe that the values we stand for are often more important than out lives because without these values society breaks down (or was Jesus wrong?). Kevin, given this sentiment, would you not serve in a military operation if you knew your chance of survival was minimal, even if it would win a war or save thousands of lives?

I have a very opposing view - you only fight for things that need to be fought for i.e. you don't fight a war for e.g. economic advantage through more power over oil reserves. There needs to be a degree of fairness and mutual agreement, and mutual respect in all situations - you only fight when it is right to fight whether you win or loose.

Ian

(* animals do not always take this approach - chimpanzees have been known to attack cheetas to protect the rest of the group, in the sure knowledge they would be ripped to pieces)

Last edited by ian : 10-30-2002 at 03:19 AM.
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Old 10-31-2002, 05:05 AM   #9
mike lee
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know kno evil?

Quote:
People might me selfish, exploitative, be uneducated, vengeful, unware, mentally ill, or have no moral concionse but no-one is evil. Evil is a word used by people promoting propaganda or in comic books.
How would you define Hitler or Charles Manson?

How would you deal with them?
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Old 10-31-2002, 05:29 AM   #10
Bruce Baker
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Careful ... we do wander into the perverted thoughts in order to explain the perverted enemey.

Depending upon the interpretive skills of the reader, we must take the words at face value of having to face one with no redeeming qualities. Hence there is no voice that can be spoken that will affect the change of the individual bent upon murder or destruction.

Simply put, we take upon ourselves the burden of doing the unspeakable task of ending another human beings life in order to preserve and protect society.

Quit a large message for so few words.
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