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Old 10-16-2002, 12:48 PM   #1
Location: Chicago
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 40
Freaky! aikido vs. aikijuts

Once more from the rookie:

Okay crew here's the quiz: what are the fundamental MARTIAL differences between aikido and aikijutsu? I'm not talking about the philosopy or any of the other warm fuzzies here. I'm talking reaction to aggression or attack? I find myself near a dojo where aikijutsu is taught and I'm extremely tempted.

Interesting reading

Thanx and blessed be....
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Old 10-16-2002, 01:14 PM   #2
Location: Frederick, MD
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 509
Re: aikido vs. aikijuts

James Singleton (wanderingwriath) wrote:
... what are the fundamental MARTIAL differences between aikido and aikijutsu? I'm not talking about the philosopy or any of the other warm fuzzies here. I'm talking reaction to aggression or attack? I find myself near a dojo where aikijutsu is taught and I'm extremely tempted.
Heya, James.

The answer is not much, really. It depends, truly, on the style and lineage (of either). Some aikido folks I know are pretty much locked, loaded and ready to roll and some aikijujutsu folks I know are real bunnies.

The Chicago Budokai is Yamate Ryu, yes? They've got a ... colorful history. Their budo is interesting and I've played with some of the folks at Chicago Budokai (several years back) and generally liked 'em just fine.

They are not, however, teaching much real koryu, despite the hype. They are teaching a fairly solid set of jujutsu techniques and are proficient at what they do.

If you want to know more about the Yamate Ryu and FJ Lovret, take a look at e-budo.com and look for the commentaries by Meik Skoss.

I'd seriously recomend you do some research.

There's plenty of good budo in and around Chicago ...


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Old 10-16-2002, 01:19 PM   #3
Location: Chicago
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 40
Thanx Chuck, but what's real koryu? (helpless face)
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Old 10-17-2002, 02:26 PM   #4
Location: Frederick, MD
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 509
Sh!t and sh!nola ...

James Singleton (wanderingwriath) wrote:
Thanx Chuck, but what's real koryu? (helpless face)
Now THAT'S a million dollar question.

I can state, unequivocally, it is NOT something invented in the last 50 years.

Koryu, generally speaking, are the Japanese martial disciplines that evolved from the warrior class (thought there ARE some exceptions), prior to the Meiji Period (1868-1912).

Get thee to www.mugendo.com and buy the three books edited by Diane Skoss (the Koryu Bujutsu trilogy ...)

They are one of the best references works in English about what koryu are and are not.

Anything by Ellis Amdur can help as well. Dave Lowry talks about koryu a lot, but I cannot see eye to eye with some of his ideas, though I cannot fault his depth of knowledge.

Koryu are the older arts, Takenouchi Ryu, Katori Shinto Ryu, Sekiguchi Ryu ... even (despite the fact that they're often being taught LIKE gendai budo these days) Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu, Muso Shinden Ryu, Shinto Muso Ryu, et al ...

Gendai budo are the 'new' arts, developed (certainly) after the Meiji Period) and generally having roots in the koryu.

Gendai budo sometime like to use 'do' and disassociate themselves from their 'martial' ('jutsu'), pasts. BS, sez me. It's all the same, in the end. Jutsu and Do is a whole 'nother argument and discussion ...

How does one differentiate (esp. when confronting somehting like Lovret's Tenshin Ryu and Yamate Ryu)?

Broadly speaking, lineage. Lovret's arts have NO verifiable lineage and no one outside of FJ Lovret and his students who can attest to their veracity.

CAVEAT: That is NOT to say that it is not good training, interesting budo, useful endeavor ... it is to say that his choice of a flexible reality as a marketing tool is dubious and should not be taken without a grain of salt.

Some of 'em are good folks and KNOW the deal, but are deeply invested and, frankly, LIKE what they're doing. Nothing wrong with that. The test of THEIR mettle will come when Lovret is gone and they start transmitting what they know ...

Verifiable koryu lineages are documented, researched, and info is available. The Japanese are OUTSTANDING record keepers -- there is simply no SUCH thing as a secret or unknown Japanese martial art, period.

If you have questions, go to www. koryu.com and gt Meik Skoss' e-mail address there or e-mail peter@budogu.com or e-mail me (chuck@the-dojo.com)privately and I can point you at any number of folks who can talk to you about what koryu is and isn't and can talk to you about the Yamate Ryu's lineage or lack thereof.

And BTW, for the record, there probably are less than a handful of koryu jujutsu systems that will use the term aikijutsu or aikijujutsu at ALL.

Why's that important? It ain't really, unless you're a budo scholar (geek) (like me?).

However, if an alleged 'master' of ANY given 'koryu' system will lie to his students about something as easily verifiable his lineage, what ELSE is he doing???

Most lineages of Japanese styles are easily verifiable. There are exceptions, but those exceptions CAN be verified through other means.

End note: If a man teaches a Good Thing, why does he need to lie about that Good Thing's parentage? Sigh.


Last edited by Chuck.Gordon : 10-17-2002 at 02:35 PM.

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Old 10-17-2002, 03:26 PM   #5
Jonathan Lewis
Location: Boulder, CO
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 35
Or maybe you wre looking for the simple answer?

Ko = old

ryu = school or stlye

Koryu = Old schools

or older styles of martial arts.

*Note, this is not a scholarly translation with all the possible finer meanings etc., it's just the simple answer.
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Old 10-21-2002, 09:34 AM   #6
Jermaine Alley
Dojo: Aikido Of Richmond
Location: Richmond, VA
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 63

I had the opportunity to train with some guys from north carolina. The system was called tai-jutsu, and was combination of what the instructor called aiki-juijutsu, and ninjutsu. I was lead to believe that since the term "ninjutsu" has so many negative aspects to it, they like to refer to their system at "tai-jutsu" or body arts.

Many of the techniques that we worked on, were in essence a "meaner" more "brutal" style of aikido. The instructor did a great job at mentioning O'Sensei and his contributions to their system, which really impressed me. I can't remember the name of the school, but if they were in richmond, i would have definitely signed up.

Take care...
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Old 10-21-2002, 10:44 AM   #7
Jason Tonks
Dojo: Bracknell Ellis School of Traditonal Aikido
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 71
Alright there James. From my own limited experience I'd say the main difference and this isn't always the case, is that in Aikijutsu the techniques are not as wide and flowing and as is frequently seen in a lot of modern Aikido. Lineage here I think plays a major part. The pre-war students of O'Sensei who practised with him in the early years would have practised this style. The Aikijutsu that I have seen is very positive with a total martial mindset. I feel all Aikido is effective and its down to the practioners spirit and personality to bring it to life. Give it a try mate.

All the best

Jason T
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