Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 09-18-2000, 09:51 PM   #26
Nacho
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 23
Offline
oh, do this happen often? Guys, don't start complaining about if you need 20 years, or 21, or 1. I wasn't talking about street Aikido self-defense, or effectiveness, I was curious and i still want to know if it's possible to defend yourself Without hurting the agressor. I liked the threads that replied to the subject. I know that if today I have to be in a real situation maybe I will injure the agressor just because my technique isn't good or because my emotions make me do it(for example, I could be afraid of a possible future attack, so I could injure him so that he can't do it). But I am still curious if you with many years of practice can deal with some rebel without injuring him.

"Peace in the Forums"
Nacho
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2000, 06:47 AM   #27
Cas Long
Location: England
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 40
Offline
Talking

ChillzATL,

Wow, why so angry?! I quoted 'O'-Sensei as saying it takes 10 years to master "the basics", not to master the Art.

I don't think that there is any need for your tone however, I merely disagree with what you are saying, & have not once insulted your viewpoint, or deemed anything said by you as "BS".

I am not politcally correct, if you read my previous posts, you would know this, I would now like to say that maybe you should go into street-fighting
& leave Aikido alone, I would hate to see you trying to railroad your fellow Aikidoka on the mat, maybe you break their arms when they do not comply.

Sorry to have to say this, but I was trying to have a sensible discussion (in particular, I apologise to Jun, who knows I like to participate in discussions, whether I agree with the topic or not).

I quote 'O'-Sensei as he was the founder of the Art (full stop). If you want to disagree with him, this is fine-he was a man, & not a God afterall, I would have quoted Kano re: Judo- this does not make me politically correct, or "mystic".

And yes, you can "grasp" a few Aikido-based moves that could aid you on the street; my still laboured point is that to fully be proficient to deal with any attack through fully understanding Aikido principles is another matter altogether; especially when, as Nacho originally stated, without injuring the aggressor, I would say this takes more skill.

As for 'O'-Sensei turning in his grave, I think that he practiced for himself, & reached self-mastery, through a lifetime's study of Budo, I don't think that he would care, to be honest (hey, that's not politically correct, is it).

I wish you a nice day too.
Maybe one day we can train together....

Peace,
Cas

"Love Is A Verb"
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2000, 08:52 AM   #28
Mike Collins
Location: San Jose
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 189
United_States
Offline
Chill Chillz.

Everyone has a right to their opinion. It isn't PC to be polite, it is civilized. In some cases it can save a lot of pain.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2000, 11:19 AM   #29
Chris
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 7
Offline
good manners and civility please

Hi everyone,

Let's not get too hot under the collar when other users put forward views other than our own.

From what I have seen across the Forum and different threads, this healthy disagreement (which must take place if the Forum is to have any value at all) is usually done with reserve and politeness.

ChillzATL,
if as you say:
" And here lies the nonsense in trying to "discuss" aikido with people."

If it is a nonsense to discuss, then why on earth are you here? Is it not a futile exercise for you to discuss issues if you then get upset by people politely disagreeing with you?

"everyone wants to take something and stretch it to the literal extremes
and it's such BS. You can't discuss aikido online because everyone
wants to one-up the next person with some witty comment, instead of just coming out and saying they totally disagree with what someone says, that way they still feel aikido-PC.
"

I am astounded by your tone and agree with Mikey, you need to be more of a gentleman. I have objectively read what you (and everyone else) have written on this thread, and I have to say that I totally disagree with everything you have said thus far. Now that is not being particularly aikido-PC or civilised, and I'd wager that deep-down you don't like it much.

If I have to be brutally honest in putting my opinion forward (an it is only that, an opinion), I had to fight to stay awake a certain points during the entire thread because I personally find the whole thing quite meaningless. But propriety dictates that I put forward my views with tact and diplomacy and keep my mouth shut if I have nothing of value to contribute instead of shooting people down that I don't agree with.
This time however, I have purposely departed from the Aikido-PC and civilised attitude you seem to be criticising and have given my honest view in a manner that you say you would prefer to hear. I hope you (and others) are not offended by my honesty, and if you are, well that's too bad.

Nacho,

to address your original question: I think that the level of skill required to deal with an aggressor without injuring them is high. That does not mean that it is impossible, even at different levels of experience. Let's not forget such factors as luck, degree of aggression shown, mental and physical state of attacker and attacked etc.
Each situation is different, and the degree of intensity in the applied response to aggression I don't think can be easily quantified.

If some guy rushes at me with a broken bottle, and I move out of the way with movements I have learned in my years of training, so that he splits his head open on the wall, does that mean to say that I have failed in being able to deal with him without injury? Or I am exonerated from blame for his injuries, since he has, by attacking me in the first place , injured himself?

To be honest, I don't think there is any one answer to your question.



As a further general observation that has nothing to do with Aikido or self-defence applications. Japanese restaurants and sushi bars a very popular here these days.
The other day I was chatting to a Sushi Chef who told me that it takes at least 15 years to graduate under the tutelage of a Master Chef. Now I can buy a sushi-making set at my local supermarket, and can cut fish and make rice and end up with something that may look like proper sushi. But would I serve it to discerning Japanese guests?
I wouldn't dare!


[Edited by chris on September 20, 2000 at 09:03am]

Chris Tozer
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2000, 12:40 PM   #30
Nacho
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 23
Offline
Smile i think we should stretch back haha

I liked your thread Chris, it was very clear and i agreed. But it was funny your "angry face( )" next to the subject haha, take it easy.

[Edited by Nacho on September 19, 2000 at 12:43pm]
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2000, 12:49 PM   #31
Chris
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 7
Offline
Wink Angry faces and smiley faces

Nacho,

The angry face was only for the first part of my post and not for my response to your question.

I think a smiley face would be more appropriate!

Cheers!

Chris Tozer
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2000, 04:04 PM   #32
chrisinbrasil
Dojo: Lenwakan
Location: Sao Paulo, Brasil
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 44
Offline
Cool Hurting the opponent...

Hi everyone,
I liked your post Chris, just thought Iīd say so.

Hereīs a thought... All this talk about hurting the opponent while defending oneīs self got me thinking. Some people say they donīt care because the guy shouldnīt be attacking me in the first place so if he gets hurt itīs his tough luck. I disagree but thatīs just me. I would like to point out that many people have resorted to using the terminology, "react". I argue that if you react... youīre in trouble. I think everyone should take a long, hard look at what it means to be in a confrontation and think about who wins fights. Itīs usually NOT the guy who reacts but who ACTS. I really enjoyed the post quoting OīSensei. "He sees me before he sees himself, by then Iīm behind him." Does that sound like an action or a reaction... I argue that it is most definately an action. OīSensei made the first move not only by recognizing the attackerīs intent but also by ACTING to neutralize the attack before it started. Another great example might be the fact that your movement in Aikido should begin at the same time or before your opponentīs, not as a reaction to what he does. Reactions donīt work as well and should be avoided at all costs. The mastery of Aikido produces an individual able to fend off multiple attackers by walking through them and meeting them, not by cowering, reacting, or being boxed into a corner. This applies to the original post, in that, to not injure your opponent you must be able to recognize him as an opponent and act to manipulate him in such a way as to not injure him. I donīt know about you people but I think that takes a wee bit more than a year! You may be able to use some technique but to truly apply this "philosophy" is quite difficult. I hope this post was clear and I would really love to hear some thoughts, whether agreeing or otherwise...
At your service,
Christopher

At your service,
Christopher Wilson
Hito no tachiba wo kanga eru.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2000, 04:33 PM   #33
Mike Collins
Location: San Jose
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 189
United_States
Offline
I too think it takes more than a year to be competent to wade through a group and not cause injury. I'm not too sure it's a 20 year deal though.

My point earlier about pain, though poorly worded, was that if you train to cause pain, rather than the more difficult practice of finding, and leading your partner's center, you are more likely to believe that you'll cause your opponent pain and make an attack stop. This isn't always, and I think in the context of a serious fight, virtually never effective. If the training is to weaken the partners structure by leading them away from their own center, there is better chance of sucess, both at surviving, as well as at pinning the opponent without causing them injury.

Whether or not this is going to be always possible is, I think, a different thing than whether or not it is possible in a general sense.

Please God, don't let this one piss anyone off!!
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2000, 12:24 PM   #34
chillzATL
Location: ATL
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 847
United_States
Offline
cas, mikey, everyon, my deepest apologies to you all.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2000, 06:57 AM   #35
Kolschey
Location: RI
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 6
Offline
Greetings,

It would seem to me that there are several variables that would determine the ability to effectively use Aikido in such fashion as to protect oneself while not unduly harming one's attacker.
The primary one that comes to mind is the prescence of weapons- this will increase the magnitude of hazard to both parties. While I have seen individuals with an excess of fifteen years training who seem capable of handling armed attackers without inflicting structural damage, I would personally fear for the safety of either or both parties in an altercation where one was armed, and the other had less than ten years experience. I would also look at the type of training which the defender had been exposed to. I have trained with some individuals who are police officers and prison guards, in a dojo where the training is very pragmatic i.e: there is repetition of only one or two techniques, or variations of a technique, within a 90 minute class. An emphasis is placed on correct body placement to minimise exposure to subsequent attacks, understanding of anatomical structure and awareness of the role of atemi. Conversely, I have also trained with individuals who emphasise energy practice and a more flowing approach in which strikes and structure locks are less prevalent. Both have their adavantages and disadvantages. For an individual who is likely to need to employ Aikido technique to counteract a serious attack within a shorter time of beginning their training, I would suspect that the first training style might prove more efficacious, though this may also be a situation in which the attcker may suffer some injury or discomfort in order to prevent serious harm to the defender. That is only my opinion, however, and I welcome hearing from others on this question.

Krzysztof M. Mathews
" For I am the Cat who walks by himself, and all places are alike to me" -Rudyard Kipling
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2000, 11:11 PM   #36
Kestrel
Dojo: Aikido Shobukan Dojo
Location: College Park, Maryland
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 15
Offline
Smile Restraining an attacker w/out injuring her/him.

It seems to me that it would be very likely that an attacker would be injured in even some of the milder techniques if they were applied by someone with less experience. Even with only a few lessons, an aikidoka could probably manage to utilize at least one of the simpler techniques..or even just iremi or tenkan out of the way. But applying any of the take-downs without injuring the attacker would rely on a huge number of factors. Even a perfectly executed kotagaeshi could injure the attacker if it were performed in too small a space (head meets wall with predictable results) or on ground that was uneven..(I'm picturing an alley outside a bar with broken glass etc.) But even larger spaces, when unfamiliar can lead us to injure ourselves..I whacked my foot but good coming out of a backroll because the wall was not where I expected it to be while visiting another dojo yesterday. When practicing, uke may resist some of the techniques in so much as he or she will not allow you to take them down with an insufficiently applied form..but at least when they fall they are relaxed and falling onto a mat..not to mention that they have practice falling!
From the amount of pain that I went through learning to fall...even without significantly injuring myself, I would be inclined to believe that an attacker being injured in at least some *small* way is very likely unless the skills of the aikidoka, the physical and mental state of the attacker, and the environment all cooperate to prevent such injury. Which seems unlikely seeing as Murphy's law is almost always in operation.

Tim

"Are you *sure* this is safe?"
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Budo Bear Patterns - Sewing pattern for Women's (and Men's) dogi.



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Aikido, the military and fighting Guilty Spark Spiritual 82 06-27-2006 05:26 PM
Injuring students L. Camejo Teaching 17 09-30-2003 12:38 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:53 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate