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Old 11-06-2002, 02:30 PM   #101
Kensai
Location: South West UK
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Cyrijl, I am sadded and sicked by the treatment that you and some other people here have resieved. This is not budo this is cowardess. Dont give up on Aikido, find yourself a good dojo. I know that my Sensei would never strike me, she would kill me if she did. But aside from that she is a great teacher. These "Sensei" and I use that term losely need to try beating students where I study, I am confident that my Sensei would Shiho-Nage them to Australia. Sickening.

Take Care.

"Minimum Effort, Maximum Effciency."
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Old 11-06-2002, 05:26 PM   #102
Jeffrey A. Fong
Dojo: Aikido Tacoma
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Such posturing in Aikido - or any other endeavor, for that matter - is shameful. While conflicts of ego are inevitable, it is unnecessary to allow training to become so unharmonious. After all, the goal of Aikido is not to "teach one a lesson" or cement one's moral, educational or martial superiority. A martial way is not to be confused with martial conflict between people who are so desperate for attention.
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Old 11-06-2002, 05:53 PM   #103
PeterR
 
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I am a little bit amazed at the level of response. Sometimes the instructor has an attitude, sometimes it is necessary.

I've never had to use violence in the dojo to take care of an attitude but I can forsee the need arising.

I remember one young student of Shihan who got well and truely out of line as only a 20 year old can. He had been a member of the dojo for about 12 years and got in a word a little abusive not to mention very drunk. The morning after Shihan sat down called out the deshi and the offender as uke and for 15 minutes put the guy (hungover) through hell. There was a split lip and bruises and he went through ukemi that I would never manage.

Is this abuse or is the character training. We teach Budo - we don't coddle.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 11-07-2002, 03:07 AM   #104
mike lee
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Freaky! getting there

Quote:
In one microsecond, my attitude was kicked out of me. It also showed me that if I was going to train, it would be on Sensai's terms and not mine.
Right on!

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Old 11-07-2002, 03:13 AM   #105
peteswann
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Ah, but Pete R, if you reread the first post

and subsequent posts by the originator it wasn't anything to do with an out of line student!! It was a 2nd or 3rd class for a beginner, getting slapped because the Sensei couldn't make some jo stuff work on him IIRC!!

Slightly different kettle of pickles methinks!! ;o)

Pete
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Old 11-07-2002, 07:20 AM   #106
Kat.C
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The problem is that we only heard his side of it which may not be completely accurate. As our experiences are colured by past experiences and by our indivdual perceptions it is entirely possible that he is mistaken about what the sensei said and did. Yes he was probably hit on the face, but how hard, was it just a tap, was the sensei doing it to get his attention?

Kat

I find the aquisition of knowledge to be relatively easy, it is the application that is so difficult.
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Old 11-07-2002, 07:45 AM   #107
Bruce Baker
Dojo: LBI Aikikai/LBI ,NJ
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One last point of view to address.

Eventually, you must see the teacher as a human being with flaws, and you must learn to stand upon your own, or at least in terms of humanity, as your equal.

Once this happens, then your appreciation for their devotion to teach you Aikido will vastly improve as you will appreciate my comment "to always protect yourself."

Do you see teachers differently than your peers in class that help you with a technique, or is your vision one of human equality ... of a human being who is teaching you, out of the kindness of their heart, the lessons they have learned?

Eventually, you must measure the width and breadth of a person, and be prepared to do what you must to protect yourself, without dipping into the emotional well of turmoil, conscious or subconscious retaliation.

Part of growing up.

Part of learning the game of life.

Part of learning to protect yourself in learning a martial art.

Last edited by Bruce Baker : 11-07-2002 at 07:48 AM.
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Old 11-07-2002, 06:55 PM   #108
PeterR
 
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Hi Pete S.

Yeah I reallized that but ended up responding to the general feel of subsequent responses that seemed to have also gone past the point of the post to a more general observation about Aikido dojos. Even in Japan many Budo dojos see themselves as a throwback to another time. That is part of the attraction and part of the price.

In direct response to the first post I would have got up and left - no question. Depending on the situation I might have even laced the guy.
Quote:
Pete Swann (peteswann) wrote:
Ah, but Pete R, if you reread the first post

and subsequent posts by the originator it wasn't anything to do with an out of line student!! It was a 2nd or 3rd class for a beginner, getting slapped because the Sensei couldn't make some jo stuff work on him IIRC!!

Slightly different kettle of pickles methinks!! ;o)

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 05-27-2003, 01:18 AM   #109
Seth Jackson
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Shameful.. not from an "aikido" pov but just from a humanity aspect. It is unfortuante that humans are humans and in any extensive grouping of humans you will find this type of character. One would hope that someone that far advanced would somehow aquire a little compassion. Seriously, for the people who are rationalizing this behaivor, would you smack around a newbie? Personally it sounds like hes got ego issues and you were making him look bad lol. Maybe daddy beat him with a rake as a child..who knows. Guess you know where that little kid that liked to throw frogs into the ant piles wound up. I would walk away with a big grin on my face laughing all the way to the next dojo in the yellow pages. Its a good lesson you learned in human behaivor tho. Now you are armed with a greater understanding of what you *dont* want in an instructor. Watch for this interaction. Every day life teaches you something, even if you dont notice it right away

--peace& kindness
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Old 05-27-2003, 06:23 AM   #110
deepsoup
Dojo: Sheffield Shodokan Dojo
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Quote:
Seth Jackson wrote:
It is unfortuante that humans are humans and in any extensive grouping of humans you will find this type of character.
Yep, sometimes you have to remember we're basically just monkeys who got lucky!

Sean

x
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Old 05-27-2003, 09:04 AM   #111
Grappler
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Next time he humiliates you, jab him in the jaw, charge forward, grab his legs, lift him up and slam the shit out of him. Then gain side control and choke him until he begs you to stop. If you are proficient in judo as you say you are, you should have no problem with the above. And dont be intimidated if he is bigger, the fatter they are the harder they fall And dont be intimidated by his belt color, the belt only covers 2 inches of his ass, the rest is up to you

Of course you could just walk away and find another dojo, but then the asshole will keep behaving like an asshole with other newbies and thats not a good thing

Seriously, that humiliation shit just shouldnt be tolerated. Roughing up a newbie in sparring to show him what fighting is about, thats one thing. Public humiliation for no reason is a completely different story. Zero tolerance for that crap. Treat training partners with respect or leave in an ambulance
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Old 05-27-2003, 11:13 AM   #112
Jesse Lee
Dojo: Tenzan Aikido, formerly named Seattle Aikikai
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I know a very senior aikidoka that trained as a yudansha with Chiba. He told a story of one occasion where Chiba thought this person's attack was too noncommittal. Chiba slapped this person once really hard across the face and screamed at him/her to come at him with everything.

This person tried hard to hospitalize Chiba with the next strike. Chiba absorbed it, and the whole thing flowed so effortlessly and beautifully, to hear this person tell it.

The reason I remember that story is, this person said that Chiba, while probably crazy, definitely saved him/her ten years of training. The flow of the next technique, after that brutal slap, revealed the next plateau on the path to mastery.

So here we have one example where the student did not get all wrapped up in his/her bruised ego and in cross-cultural pedagogical philosophies. S/he did not respond by trying to beat his ass. S/he did not bother gathering consensus that the action was wrong, and s/he did not submit complaints or file a lawsuit. Instead s/he took the outrageous act as a gift and somehow leaped way ahead in aikido proficiency.

I'm not saying this is what I would do or what you should do -- I am just saying there is a wide spectrum of responses, and on one extreme end of that spectrum, you could choose to just let it go and learn from the experience to improve your own game.

Last edited by Jesse Lee : 05-27-2003 at 11:16 AM.

, can't find m s
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Old 05-27-2003, 11:57 AM   #113
Don_Modesto
Dojo: Messores Sensei (Largo, Fl.)
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Quote:
Jesse Lee wrote:
Chiba. He told a story of one occasion where Chiba thought this person's attack was too noncommittal. Chiba slapped this person once really hard across the face and screamed at him/her to come at him with everything....The reason I remember that story is, this person said that Chiba, while probably crazy, definitely saved him/her ten years of training.
What did Chiba accomplish with the slap that he couldn't have by simply demanding a better attack verbally?

I don't get it.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
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Old 05-27-2003, 12:21 PM   #114
Jesse Lee
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Maybe it completely emptied this student's cup, so it could be completely filled again. The student put everything into that next attack, and so got everything the teacher could offer out of the waza.

But now I am speaking for someone else, and I am starting to defend Chiba, so I'll step off. Just sharing an interesting story for you to grok or discard, as you like

My point has nothing to do with whether this is a valid teaching method -- only that the student has a choice in how to deal with it, and that there might be something valuable to learn from the situation.

Last edited by Jesse Lee : 05-27-2003 at 12:29 PM.

, can't find m s
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Old 05-27-2003, 12:31 PM   #115
Jim Sorrentino
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Quote:
Jesse Lee wrote:
I know a very senior aikidoka that trained as a yudansha with Chiba. He told a story of one occasion where Chiba thought this person's attack was too noncommittal. Chiba slapped this person once really hard across the face and screamed at him/her to come at him with everything.

This person tried hard to hospitalize Chiba with the next strike. Chiba absorbed it, and the whole thing flowed so effortlessly and beautifully, to hear this person tell it.

The reason I remember that story is, this person said that Chiba, while probably crazy, definitely saved him/her ten years of training. The flow of the next technique, after that brutal slap, revealed the next plateau on the path to mastery.
Well, that's one way to rationalize an act of humiliation by your instructor.

The proper responses for an instructor to a tentative attack by a student are either: 1) choose a new uke; or 2) show the student how to attack well. I prefer the second, since it fits well with the aikido approach of learning through demonstration, imitation, and repetition

I've never met Mr. Chiba, let alone taken a class from him, but I know two people whom he purposefully injured. Both are experienced yudansha, and neither of them "deserved it". An instructor who humiliates and purposely injures his or her students and visitors to his or her dojo is a menace and a disgrace to aikido and the martial arts.

I have trained in aikido as a student of Saotome-sensei since 1984, and I have never seen him either humiliate or intentionally injure another aikidoka, whether that person was a student of his or not. On the contrary, Saotome-sensei has suspended people from teaching or training (or both) when those people have injured or "merely" intimidated junior students.

Based on my observations, this is true for other martial arts as well. I also studied Uechi-ryu karatedo in a dojo setting from 1977 to 1989. I spent three months in Okinawa in 1981 studying at Kanei Uechi-sensei's dojo and a smaller dojo run by one of his senior students, Mr. Nakamatsu. The training was hard in every sense of the word. But the only time I ever saw an intentional injury occur, it involved an arrogant American visitor who let it be known that he had come to Uechi-sensei's dojo to test for ni-dan, and to find out how tough the Okinawans were.

He found out. As part of his ni-dan test, this person had to spar with a much-lower-ranking Okinawan student who just happened to be a gymnast and a boxer. The testing board awarded the American his ni-dan after the Okinawan student beat the crap out of him. All of us in the dojo felt sorry for him, but we agreed that he "earned" it.

Strangely enough, I met him back in the US several years later, and he was just as arrogant as ever.

Humiliation and brutality are notoriously unreliable teaching tools, especially in an arena as full of insecurities as a dojo.
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Old 05-27-2003, 12:37 PM   #116
opherdonchin
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My reading of Jesse's post is different. I did not think she was trying to rationalize or excuse Chiba's action. Rather, it was the uke's choice -- given Chiba's action -- that interested her. As she said, there are a lot of possible choices, each with positive and negative consequences. She was just noticing that this particular choice is possible and that someone felt it had positive consequences for them.

Sorry if I'm putting words in someone's mouth.

Yours in Aiki
Opher
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Old 05-27-2003, 01:03 PM   #117
paw
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Opher,

What did Chiba accomplish with the slap that he couldn't have by simply demanding a better attack verbally?

Don's question still stands. There were a number of ways to get the point across. The fact that uke interpreted it differently means little to me. From studies, many abused spouses feel that they are abused for their own shortcomings, and later rationalize how being abused is beneficial to them.

I'm not suggesting that was the case in this story about Chiba. But I do think Don's question should not be quickly dismissed.

Regards,

Paul
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Old 05-27-2003, 01:12 PM   #118
opherdonchin
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I think it's an excellent question and one that deserves to be answered. I do not mean to dismiss it at all.

On the other hand, in the way that it was presented, it dismissed the point of Jesse's post (as I read it): what did the uke accomplish by their choice? I felt that this point, also, should not be dismissed quickly. As you suggest, accepting abuse is often very unhealthy. The story suggests, but doesn't insist, that it could occasionally be healthy. I think that the important thing is that we have a choice.

In fact, there is another important thing. Chiba had a choice and uke had a choice. The second important thing is that uke can't make Chiba's choice. For uke, the question of 'should Chiba have slapped me' is only of theoretical or philosophical interest.

I am both a teacher and a student. As a teacher, the question, 'should I slap and humiliate my students' is an easy question. The question, 'how should I respond when I feel my teacher has humiliated me' is much harder. I found Jesse's story interesting in that light.

I'd like to point out, by the way, that the uke in Jesse's story did not intend to submit to the abuse. Instead, they intended to 'hospitalize' Chiba. The learning came after.

Yours in Aiki
Opher
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Old 05-27-2003, 02:12 PM   #119
Ron Tisdale
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Quote:
I'd like to point out, by the way, that the uke in Jesse's story did not intend to submit to the abuse. Instead, they intended to 'hospitalize' Chiba. The learning came after.
Good point Opher...

Don, I have a post earlier in the thread about an experience in a shotokan karate dojo. Scan back and read it if you can...Do you think that instructor was abusive? I didn't then, and I don't now. I can't speak to the situation with Chiba...wasn't there. But man, have I heard stories...

Ron

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Old 05-27-2003, 02:34 PM   #120
Alan Drysdale
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Don asked: "What did Chiba accomplish with the slap that he couldn't have by simply demanding a better attack verbally?"

Hi Don: Not something I could see myself doing, but maybe Chiba wanted a visceral response instead of a mental one.

Alan
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Old 05-27-2003, 02:53 PM   #121
Alfonso
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Was the person who got slapped a novice , in their third class?

I think there's a difference.

Alfonso Adriasola
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Old 05-27-2003, 03:23 PM   #122
Darren Raleigh
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Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk (NagaBaba) wrote:
...In a dojo instructor is the highest authority, and there is not such thing as "complaining to national organisation"...
Not actually true. In Iowa, for example, the laws of the State of Iowa do not cease at the door of the dojo - your instructor does not acquire rights to commit battery upon you that other citizens do not have. You would find that the Attorney General for the State of Iowa would agree with this, as would any Aikido Federation that you care to ask.

You might ask your local legal authorites for the Province of Quebec and see if they are okay with the idea that battery is OK in the dojo.

We train for the real world, and in the real world the 21st century is in the dojo as well as outside. To insist upon "old budo" standards is to wander into fantasy - and fantasy is dangerous!

Any instructor who cannot train as well without committing battery upon his or her students needs additional training.

An instructor can tell me "I can't train students without slapping them around" but I'll only hear the first four words.

"If he would not be a stick whirled and whelmed in the stream, he must be the stream itself, all of it, from its spring to its sinking in the sea."
- Ogion the Silent
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Old 05-28-2003, 07:14 AM   #123
Alan Drysdale
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Darren said:

"In Iowa, for example, the laws of the State of Iowa do not cease at the door of the dojo - your instructor does not acquire rights to commit battery upon you that other citizens do not have."

In the context of slapping a student, you might be correct. In the more general context, I would think (any lawyers out there?) that there are some differences. I could see that walking up to somebody in the street and grabbing or punching at them could get you in a lot of legal trouble, yet we do it all the time in the dojo.

Alan
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Old 05-28-2003, 01:54 PM   #124
Don_Modesto
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Quote:
Alan Drysdale wrote:
Not something I could see myself doing, but maybe Chiba wanted a visceral response instead of a mental one.
Ikeda and the guy he trained with in Japan, Kuwamori, used to beat the expletives out of me. But they never once acted in anger or spoke in a demeaning manner. I see your point, but I just smell to much guru rationalization on this one.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
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Old 05-28-2003, 01:57 PM   #125
Don_Modesto
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Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Don, I have a post earlier in the thread about an experience in a shotokan karate dojo. Scan back and read it if you can...Do you think that instructor was abusive? I didn't then, and I don't now.
You gave a pretty bare-bones rendering of the incident. Absent anger or intention to humiliate (read: tone of voice), I agree, it was training, not abuse.

Don J. Modesto
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