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Old 10-10-2002, 01:14 PM   #51
MichaelK78
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By the way... I was also training in the beginner sub-group.

And the fact I was wearing a colored doesn't change anything in any case. Isn't the essence of Aikido not to fall to rage and fury?? not to attack? And what is the guy thinking?? That I would challenge him?? an 'orange' belt against a 6th dan master?? What motive could I possibly have for that???
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Old 10-10-2002, 01:22 PM   #52
paw
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Michael,

I agree with you. The color of your belt and the condition of your gi shouldn't have made any difference in how you were treated. To my way of thinking, if it was a big deal to the instructor (or a "challenge" of some type), your instructor certainly could have said something before class formally began.

I encourage you again to contact Peter Goldsbury via private email. Peter can help you out a great deal.

Regards,

Paul
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Old 10-10-2002, 01:45 PM   #53
opherdonchin
Dojo: Baltimore Aikido
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I always wear my white belt to a new dojo. I don't think of it as false humility. I think of it as real humility. When I'm new to a dojo, I have no idea what sorts of assumptions people may have about my knowledge or what sorts of unshared assumptions may lead them to misunderstand my behavior. My own (honest?) assessment of my own skills says that I'll be safer if I let them treat me with kid gloves. Maybe I get stuff explained to me a little more than I need to sometimes by people whom I seriously outrank, but that's definitely not the end of the world. Sometimes it's even thought provoking.

I've even noticed that some people (perhaps including me) see a random new person with colored belts on the mat as something of a challenge or an affront.

Of course, none of that justifies your teachers behavior, Mike. It sounds to me, like it has to others, that if the teacher 'crossed a line' for you then it seems to me there is little to be gained by going back.

Yours in Aiki
Opher
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Old 10-10-2002, 02:31 PM   #54
NagaBaba
 
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Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote:
Nagababa,

Speaking of mommy and daddy, how much did they pay for that computer you're using? Do they know you're staying up so late?
Hi Kevin,

I had 17 when I started working. Last 15 years I'm helping my family economicaly. I send them money and I built their house.

How about you and your family?

No, they don't know I'm staying up so late.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 10-10-2002, 02:41 PM   #55
NagaBaba
 
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Quote:
Erik Haselhofer (Erik) wrote:
I don't know about you but I'd find a law enforcement type and start there. They do have those in "the wild North" don't they, or, is that why it's "the wild North"?
noh, they come always much too late. One must take care about himself.Cops are always bad choice, particularly when they learn you practice MA. Better disapear BEFORE they come.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 10-10-2002, 02:44 PM   #56
opherdonchin
Dojo: Baltimore Aikido
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Quote:
Michael wrote:
Isn't the essence of Aikido not to fall to rage and fury?? not to attack? And what is the guy thinking?? That I would challenge him?? an 'orange' belt against a 6th dan master?? What motive could I possibly have for that???
One of O'Sensei's gaijin students (name, anyone?) is quoted as saying that our spiritual (and physical) progress in AiKiDo should be judged not against an absolute standard but against the standard of what you would have been if you had not started AiKiDo. About himself, he said, he suspected that without AiKiDo he would probably have never achieved normal social behavior and would have been well on the way to being a psychopath. It's notoriously difficult to know whether someone 'deserves' their rank, especially when it comes to the social or spiritual aspects of the art. All you can really decide is whether you want to train with them.

Yours in Aiki
Opher
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Old 10-10-2002, 02:48 PM   #57
NagaBaba
 
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Quote:
Christopher Li (Chris Li) wrote:
I know plenty of koryu sword instructors who would never think of slapping their students in the face. They're pretty good at the sword stuff, though .
heh every instructor has his own teaching system. Who knows which one in more efficient?

May be this was kind of selection, a test? may he doesn't need mentaly weak students?

I read on this forum there are instructors that not accept womens in his dojo. This is other kind of selection, isn't it?


Quote:
Sure, violence is a part of budo training. Controlled violence, that is, that's why it's called "training". OTOH, if you ask me gratuitous violence doesn't have any place in the dojo.

Best,

Chris
Chris! little slap in the face - YOU consider it a VIOLENCE?

I'm shocked

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 10-10-2002, 03:01 PM   #58
NagaBaba
 
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Quote:
Michael Knecht (MichaelK78) wrote:
Yes, it's possible that the teacher thought i was more experienced; I practiced judo and jiu-jitsu for years, I have been working out at the gym for years -so I look a bit athletic-, i have been wearing my old judo suit and brown belt and the class is moderately big (about 30-35 students).
ohhh you practiced judo and jiu-jitsu for years and you want to complain ROTFL

Why didn't you choke him immediately?

Well...I felt from beginning that this instructor was right. He had to have a good reason to do that. And I think it was a challenge - yes it was challenge for sure.You wanted to test him - to check out efficiency of his technique, Be honest Michael?

It is nothing wrong, on contrary, I'd do the same if I was you. And for instructor it is very important to be able handle challenges with efficient aikido techniques.So instructor learns also.

Of course, a challenger must accept consequences - that states a Law of Martial Artists

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 10-10-2002, 03:08 PM   #59
NagaBaba
 
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Quote:
Michael Knecht (MichaelK78) wrote:
By the way... I was also training in the beginner sub-group.

And the fact I was wearing a colored doesn't change anything in any case. Isn't the essence of Aikido not to fall to rage and fury?? not to attack? And what is the guy thinking?? That I would challenge him?? an 'orange' belt against a 6th dan master?? What motive could I possibly have for that???
heheh you though about small friendly challenge, as they have it daily in judo dojo, but aikido........oooooooooo!!!!!!!!! aikido dojo has NOT the same rules

In aikido you HELP instructor to do a technique, otherwise he can do nothing at all! and he get nervous

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 10-10-2002, 03:08 PM   #60
Andy
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Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk (NagaBaba) wrote:
Well...I felt from beginning that this instructor was right.
You think an aikido instructor slapping his student in the face, hissing at him to "cooperate", and forcing the technique is right behavior? Sure sounds like the instructor was unable to handle the situation to me. Does your teacher slap you in the face, hiss at you to cooperate, and force the technique when you resist, Szczepan? Do you do that when people resist you?

And, if you think a slap in the face isn't violent, try slapping a small child in the face while her mother is watching. Better yet, do that to a cop.
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Old 10-10-2002, 03:43 PM   #61
Bronson
 
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Quote:
And, if you think a slap in the face isn't violent,
In my previous martial life we used to break boards with slaps...it's a lot easier than you might think.

Also, NagaBaba might I ask where you train? I sometimes make it up into Canada and would be interested in knowing where you're located.

Thanks,

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 10-10-2002, 04:08 PM   #62
Erik
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Quote:
Andy Russo (Andy) wrote:
And, if you think a slap in the face isn't violent, try slapping a small child in the face while her mother is watching. Better yet, do that to a cop.
Andy, I've got a better idea. I'm gonna go to an Aikido dojo, put on a white belt and after about 3 classes I'm gonna slap the teacher, order him/her to cooperate and force them into a technique, assuming I can of course. I suppose since I'm a Californian and we are wussies, according to the fearsome one from the North, I should live to tell everyone about it. Besides, a teacher should have budo spirit and a little thing like a slap shouldn't even faze them.

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Old 10-10-2002, 05:09 PM   #63
erikmenzel
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Hello,

Michael sent me a private message with the name of the teacher involved. Knowing who it was I have absolutely no reason to doubt Michael's story. I have met this teacher on several accounts and none of them had anything resembling the nice and pleasant ways we normally associate with aikido. During his lessons he tries to play a power game. I have seen him abuse, threathen and hurt people. He justifies this all as being within reigi. BTW my personal opinion of this teacher is that he is a major $%$#@%^% who has a bad influence on people. I found his aikido unimpressive. I visited seminars (at clubs from one of his federations)were everything was ok until he entered and the seminar turned ugly, agressive and abusive.

This teacher is one of the founding fathers of political aikido struggle in the Netherlands and also the founder of several federations (which all split up, died out or they threw him out). He has been involved in powerstruggles for so long that he cannot imagine anything else. If you are not with him you are against him and if you are not with him then you are of course absolutely wrong.

Erik Jurrien Menzel
kokoro o makuru taisanmen ni hirake
Personal:www.kuipers-menzel.com
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Old 10-10-2002, 06:27 PM   #64
Peter Malecek
Dojo: Sei Aikido Dojo (Prague)
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Picture this...

Grand master Slap the well known Aikido sensei is walking in the park carrying his trusty jo (as you do). Out of the trees jumps an evil doer whose preferred targets are men in skirts who walk in parks carrying sticks. Before Slap can react the bad guy has him by the jo. Our hero decides then and there to do killer aikido jo technique number 67 (I'm sure you're all familiar with that one). But what's this .. it can't be ..,. try as he might Slap can't seem to get old 67 to work.

Later in the hospital, afer udergoing surgery to remove the jo, Slap (who is face down on the bed because the doctor says that sitting would just loosen the stitches) goes over the encounter (or the bits that he can remember).

After careful analysis our hero bottoms out the problem. To the untrained observer it would have appeared that our hero lost the fight because his techique sucked but our hero (being a great master an all) has identified the real problem, the bad guy just wasn't cooperating.

Just a thought.

Michael, if the facts are as you have presented them then you should find another teacher. If your present instructor dosen't have the technique to move you, a beginner (even if at the time you were wearing the dreaded orange belt of martial mastery), he has nothing to teach you. Afterall, Aikido techniques were not designed to 'work' only on people who cooperate.

Nice self control by the way !!!

Peter
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Old 10-10-2002, 06:42 PM   #65
Erik
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Quote:
Peter Malecek wrote:
Picture this...
Dude, you got me to laugh.
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Old 10-10-2002, 09:31 PM   #66
NagaBaba
 
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Quote:
Andy Russo (Andy) wrote:
You think an aikido instructor slapping his student in the face, hissing at him to "cooperate", and forcing the technique is right behavior?
Hi Andy,

For today we now only one part of history, and still new detailes come, so it is very difficult to make right jugement.

However, in this situation slapping could have signification of atemi, that's mean, a teacher wanted to show an opening in a position of uke, and by used teaching tool(slapping face) instead of other teaching tool(atemi or kick or head butt). So we may suppose that instructor was quite gently and uke was very lucky

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 10-10-2002, 10:43 PM   #67
Mike Collins
Location: San Jose
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Szczepan,

You are a bad bad man. Even up there in the cold, ugly, rugged, lumberjack flannel shirt wearing north (insert song from Monty Python "Oh, I am a lumberjack and it's okay" here), they don't start smacking the new guys around during the third lesson.

But you do love to troll, don't ya?
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Old 10-10-2002, 11:14 PM   #68
Edward
Location: Bangkok
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Quote:
Erik Jurrien Knoops (erikknoops) wrote:
During his lessons he tries to play a power game. I have seen him abuse, threathen and hurt people. If you are not with him you are against him and if you are not with him then you are of course absolutely wrong.
Hehehe.... Sounds amazingly similar to one of our infamous instructors
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Old 10-10-2002, 11:33 PM   #69
Andy
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Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk (NagaBaba) wrote:
For today we now only one part of history, and still new detailes come, so it is very difficult to make right jugement.
Then in the same way, stop casting the same kind of judgement onto Michael.
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Old 10-11-2002, 02:32 AM   #70
peteswann
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Dead

Quote:
Michael Knecht (MichaelK78) wrote:
Yes, it's possible that the teacher thought i was more experienced; I practiced judo and jiu-jitsu for years, I have been working out at the gym for years -so I look a bit athletic-, i have been wearing my old judo suit and brown belt and the class is moderately big (about 30-35 students). In fact, this is what I think went wrong. He probably thought I was challenging him or something.

However, he could have seen i am a beginner. I even struggle with some of the simplest exercises and techniques. I can't even sit on my heels for more than 30 seconds. Besides, I wouldn't mind if he had given me an 'educational' slap (to bring up my guard or something-as you describe). But he was furious! He just lost control. And that I find unacceptable.
Yes unnacceptable, but the fact that you turned up to his class wearing a gi and BROWN BELT for your third lesson might well have been a significant factor! As I have said before his behaviour was well out of order, however, don't you think it quite 'rude' to not go in a white belt? I kinda thought that was the accepted practice if you were visiting a different dojo? After all, your grades tend not to stand from art to art and association to association?

Pete

Pete
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Old 10-11-2002, 03:39 AM   #71
Dangus
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Perhaps he could not find his white belt. Perhpas he did not have it anymore. Perhaps he could not afford one. Perhaps he thought that it was not abnormal behavior. Berrating him for his choice of belts is petty. This teacher was extremely out of line, and I probably would have struck him for such an attack, but I suppose that's cause my kung-fu is much better than my Aikido LOL, both philisophically and physically. I've pretty much tamed any real temper, but it's still pretty hard to not strike when struck. It's just animal instinct.

"Those who beat their swords into plowshares plow for those who keep their's" -Ben Franklin
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Old 10-11-2002, 03:40 AM   #72
MichaelK78
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Pete...

Read my last messages.
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Old 10-11-2002, 03:43 AM   #73
peteswann
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Michael, I responded there before I had read through all the other post that came after yours!! Apologies if it came across as judgmental!!

I still believe the instructor was way out of line!! My advice is to find another dojo!!

Pete

Pete
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Old 10-11-2002, 03:59 AM   #74
MichaelK78
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Quote:
Erik Jurrien Knoops (erikknoops) wrote:
During his lessons he tries to play a power game. I have seen him abuse, threathen and hurt people. He justifies this all as being within reigi. BTW my personal opinion of this teacher is that he is a major $%$#@%^% who has a bad influence on people. I found his aikido unimpressive. I visited seminars (at clubs from one of his federations)were everything was ok until he entered and the seminar turned ugly, agressive and abusive.

...

He has been involved in powerstruggles for so long that he cannot imagine anything else. If you are not with him you are against him and if you are not with him then you are of course absolutely wrong.
Yeah... it's all starting to make sense to me now.

Actually, after the incident I noticed he was really paying attention to me. It's like he was searching for a reason to enter a power struggle again. For instance, if wasn't the first person to get up after he demonstrated a technique he would stare at me with psycho eyes. I thought it was just my imagination but I may have been right there.
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Old 10-11-2002, 03:59 AM   #75
MichaelK78
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Don't worry Pete. Apology accepted.
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