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Old 10-09-2002, 08:57 AM   #26
DGLinden
Dojo: Shoshin Aikido Dojos
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There are often good reasons for a slap, however I can't see hitting anyone who has yet to even understand what ukime might be.

Michael, is it possible that this instructor did not know that you were a beginner? Is your dojo so large that he might not know all the students and assumed you were an experienced visitor? Were you wearing a borrowed gi that was torn and tattered and might lead someone to assume you had been training for years? Are you otherwise athletic and strong, smooth and centered?

A slap can often protect an experienced student from continued bad habits if administered wisely and fairly. I do it often for those who otherwise won't protect themselves. In fact it is a joke in the dojo that a student hasn't really been accepted untill they get popped. But that's the point. For some it might take many years untill I would even consider tapping them. For others it happens the second or third time I need to remind them to protect themselves.

A performer from the Cirque De Sole might only be asked a couple times to put their hand up and cover their face. A karate black belt might only be asked once. However, a stone cold beginer would wait years and if he otherwise listens and protects himself would never be touched in that way. It is really about compassion.

And any other reason is completely unacceptable.

Daniel G. Linden
Author of ON MASTERING AIKIDO (c) 2004
Founder Shoshin Aikido Dojos
www.shoshindojo.com
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Old 10-09-2002, 09:10 AM   #27
Kat.C
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Some people use physical correction some don't and some people will accept it and others won't, I think whether it's wrong or not depends on the circumstances. When I was at a karate camp, I was hit with a bo on the leg a couple of times because I kept stepping wrong. It didn't bother me, but then it didn't very hurt much either, and it worked! I got the footwork right pretty quickly after that. Keep in mind though that this sensei was not being vicious, or striking in anger.

You said that you think he crossed a certain line and that what he did was unforgivable, if you really think that you should just leave the dojo. Otherwise I think that you should heed the advice of those who suggested that you should talk to the person who hit you. Obviously you can't say that you don't ever want to be hit, but you can explain that you are uncomfortable with being hit as a punishment or correction. You can also explain that you were just very confused and that you weren't being uncooperative. This should be done privately though. If the person who hit you apologises and agrees not to do so again that's great, if not you should probably find somewhere else to train. You might want to do so anyway if such things are accepted at that dojo. You mentioned that the sensei who did this didn't seem worried about the incident so it may be that this is acceptable there. Now if you talk to him and he does that to you again, then I would say he has crossed the line, right now though he doesn't know where you have drawn it. Anyways just my thoughts, I hope it all works out.

Kat

I find the aquisition of knowledge to be relatively easy, it is the application that is so difficult.
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Old 10-09-2002, 09:37 AM   #28
Kat.C
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I had meant to add that one of my friends in karate got slapped on the back of the head by her sensei and told to "smarten up", she told the sensei off right then and there, quite loudly too, he apologised and to my knowledge never did that again. Personally though I think you should speak privately to a person you're having a problem with, not on the mat as it can make others feel uncomfortable.

Kat

I find the aquisition of knowledge to be relatively easy, it is the application that is so difficult.
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Old 10-09-2002, 09:45 AM   #29
aikigreg
Dojo: Mizu Aikido
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Giving someone a light tap to correct someone on their form, or demonstrating atemi is one thing.

This is abuse, plain and simple.

I've had plenty of hits to the body to stop me from making a stupid mistake in my karate and kung fu training, but they were done to ingrain muscle memory. A slap to the face accompaied by yelling is just designed to be humiliating.

Get out of the dojo.
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Old 10-09-2002, 04:34 PM   #30
gasman
 
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was it a slap or a punch? a slap is hardly abuse.

it could be that he was trying to get you to react naturally. like, DODGE.

Although I have to admit it is a bit harsh for a teacher to do this on your 3rd session, I think you should go back and keep practicing. This will show that you have endurance.

I have heard of this before, and our own sensei has been know to dish out a few slaps, usually when someone is either not paying attention OR if someone starts resisting purpousely when practicing, like "haha this doesnt work because...etc".

I've been slapped myself. It is humiliating but it is a learning experience.

How did it make you feel? Your senses, what happened? Your heartbeat? Your vision? Your concentration? Sharper?

Zen students frequently get slapped by their teachers. It's a wake up call.

KATZ!

Peace and good luck,

Sig.
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Old 10-09-2002, 08:36 PM   #31
Diablo
Dojo: International Aikido Association
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Re: Getting slapped in the face by the teacher

Quote:
Michael Knecht (MichaelK78) wrote:
(snipped) Then suddenly the teacher slapped me in my face with his free hand, "Ouch..." I said. He looked at me furiously and hissed "You will cooperate!!!" while he yanked the stick to force my wrist to fold over. I was shocked. I still am. And to be honest I don't really know what to do about it! Should I file a complaint at the dojo I train? at the national aikido organization?
First of all I'm a little surprised that you were doing weapons work at such an early stage, but I guess every dojo is different. It seems your sensei acted in a highly inappropriate and unprofesional manner. For him to lash out at you in such a negative tone is very demeaning and unreasonable. If I was to get slapped, it would be with a fellow akikidoka playing around, and we both were aware that we were playing. But getting slapped and scorned is something different altogether, and I'm surprised that some of the fellow posters here are defending the sensei.

Of course you were not raped, but I believe you were violated, and the reason I bring up the "r" word is that many people tend to blame the victim for being violated. He should have took you aside after class or something and said "Hey, I over-stepped my boundaries earlier, and I just want to say I'm sorry."

If you were in a "hard" style of martial arts, such as mui tai kickboxing, maybe I could understand his actions, but Aikido is supposed to be "The Way of Harmony."

If you feel you are owed an apology, speak up. If you feel too uncomfortable there, find another dojo that will take your money.

It's all about connection.

Diablo
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Old 10-09-2002, 09:25 PM   #32
NagaBaba
 
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Quote:
Pete Swann (peteswann) wrote:
And I think NagaBaba's comments were unjustified considering the topic! It's not about training and being a man, it is about a supposedly trusted instructor 'losing it' for a second and lashing out in anger in a place where there is no call for it!! After all, it is the 21st century not the 16th/17th where Macho b/s was necessary in order to survive!!
no kidding you practice Budo or what? In Budo trusted instructor simply doesn't existe. We are doing techniques on the eadge life/death, as it is last technique in our life...and you are talking about a trust? What is it one light slap in the face in comparison to a hook or kick to the head? If somebody attack you on the street and break your arm or leg, what will you do? Will you crying about abuse?Complain where?

Martial art must prepare for a worst situation in your life.

One must be ready to face a live sword - we have plenty techniques to disarm attacker with a sword.....you think it is a joke? One small mistake and your arm or HEAD is cut off

Still want complain about it to National Council of Security ROTFL

Michel, go to mammy and daddy, they will protect you against all those devil aikido instructors

When one practice Budo, one must develop Budo spirit. Thats all.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 10-09-2002, 09:44 PM   #33
Chris Li
 
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Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk (NagaBaba) wrote:
One must be ready to face a live sword - we have plenty techniques to disarm attacker with a sword.....you think it is a joke? One small mistake and your arm or HEAD is cut off

Still want complain about it to National Council of Security ROTFL
I know plenty of koryu sword instructors who would never think of slapping their students in the face. They're pretty good at the sword stuff, though .
Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk (NagaBaba) wrote:
Michel, go to mammy and daddy, they will protect you against all those devil aikido instructors

When one practice Budo, one must develop Budo spirit. Thats all.
Sure, violence is a part of budo training. Controlled violence, that is, that's why it's called "training". OTOH, if you ask me gratuitous violence doesn't have any place in the dojo.

Best,

Chris

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Old 10-09-2002, 11:03 PM   #34
Kevin Wilbanks
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Nagababa,

Speaking of mommy and daddy, how much did they pay for that computer you're using? Do they know you're staying up so late?
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Old 10-10-2002, 01:21 AM   #35
Erik
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Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk (NagaBaba) wrote:
If somebody attack you on the street and break your arm or leg, what will you do? Will you crying about abuse?Complain where?
I don't know about you but I'd find a law enforcement type and start there. They do have those in "the wild North" don't they, or, is that why it's "the wild North"?
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Old 10-10-2002, 02:28 AM   #36
peteswann
Dojo: Shinwakai UK
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Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk (NagaBaba) wrote:
no kidding you practice Budo or what? In Budo trusted instructor simply doesn't existe. We are doing techniques on the eadge life/death, as it is last technique in our life...and you are talking about a trust? What is it one light slap in the face in comparison to a hook or kick to the head? If somebody attack you on the street and break your arm or leg, what will you do? Will you crying about abuse?Complain where?
Hmmm, if you don't trust your instructor who do you trust in your dojo? DO YOU even do Aikido? Or are you training in another MA? Every single high ranking Aikido instructor I have met (4th-9th dan) on and off the mat has espoused the 'philosophy' of looking after your training partner so that you actually have a partner to train with the next time!!
Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk (NagaBaba) wrote:
Martial art must prepare for a worst situation in your life.
True, but not by duplicating it totally on tha mat. Abuse of the nature stated at the start of this thread has no place in a dojo today, most especially against someone who is just testing the waters - remember it was 3 days into his training? Time for you to live in the 21st century I think!!
Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk (NagaBaba) wrote:
One must be ready to face a live sword - we have plenty techniques to disarm attacker with a sword.....you think it is a joke? One small mistake and your arm or HEAD is cut off
Yes I agree that you must be prepared for all things as much as you can be but that doesn't mean that during 'training', 'practice', or whatever you want to call it that you should have your arms or head actually cut off now does it? That would end your pursuit of perfection in your art real quick wouldn't it?
Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk (NagaBaba) wrote:
Still want complain about it to National Council of Security ROTFL
No, like someone else said, a Law Enforcement Agency is a much better place to start!!

If I am ever attacked in the street (god forbid) I would hope the least I could do is avoid serious injury and be able to go to the authorities over it. I am not interested in totally anihalating an attacker as in most countries especially the West that is one way of getting yourself into prison!
Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk (NagaBaba) wrote:
Michel, go to mammy and daddy, they will protect you against all those devil aikido instructors
Well now it seems that to keep your own inflated sense of masculinity you have to resort to insulting someone who has asked for advice in a situation they felt uncomfortable with!! I think that shows a lot about your own character doesn't it? What a great way of showing compassion to another human being who just wanted a bit of advice from people they thought should now at least some of the answers to the questions they had!! Hope you feel proud of your achievements in that respect!!
Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk (NagaBaba) wrote:
When one practice Budo, one must develop Budo spirit. Thats all.
Don't seem to recall on any of the forums I am a part of that anyone ever mentioned 'The Budo Spirit' including accepting obvious abuse and bullying just 3 days into your first foray? That attitude is quite antiquated even in Japan as far as I am aware? (Maybe Mr Goldsbury can help on that point seeing as he lives and teaches out that way!) Ah well, I know my words have fallen on deaf ears with NagaBaba in this respect but there you go!! Some people are set in their ways and no amount of reason is going to change them!!

My advice to the originator of this thread (apologies for not remembering your name!) is to find another dojo and test the waters again until you find one that you fit right into!!

Pete

Pete
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Old 10-10-2002, 06:25 AM   #37
justinm
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Someone (Sig?) suggested a slap is not abuse.

I feel a slap is more humiliating than a punch, in the dojo setting. It implies dominance, particularly when delivered by a male (a slap from a female, at least in the uk, has different overtones than from a male).

As for trust - this should be the number one priority in any aikido dojo. At least, I can't think of anything that should be more important....

Justin
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Old 10-10-2002, 09:46 AM   #38
Don_Modesto
Dojo: Messores Sensei (Largo, Fl.)
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Re: Getting slapped in the face by the teacher

Quote:
Michael Knecht (MichaelK78) wrote:
Then suddenly the teacher slapped me in my face....I was shocked. I still am. And to be honest I don't really know what to do about it!
What DID you do about it?

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
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http://www.theaikidodojo.com/
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Old 10-10-2002, 10:24 AM   #39
bob_stra
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Question

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk (NagaBaba) wrote:
and you are talking about a trust? What is it one light slap in the face in comparison to a hook or kick to the head? If somebody attack you on the street and break your arm or leg, what will you do? Will you crying about abuse?Complain where?
Tell you what, this being 17th

century feudal europe and all, let's take that logic to its natural conclusion.

Teacher slaps. Student gets pissed off, takes teacher down, mounts and pounds the snot of of him, then chokes him unconcious.

Hey, what's a little punch here and there and a small strangulation amongst friends? Why, you'd positively be doing the teacher a *favour* - god knows what could happen during real combat (tm).

Budo is great and all, but isn't inherent respect for all individuals a part of aikido?

(PS: Yeah, you were probably being sarcastic. I get it. This topic kind winds me up is all)
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Old 10-10-2002, 10:57 AM   #40
MichaelK78
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Quote:
Daniel Linden (DGLinden) wrote:
There are often good reasons for a slap, however I can't see hitting anyone who has yet to even understand what ukime might be.

Michael, is it possible that this instructor did not know that you were a beginner? Is your dojo so large that he might not know all the students and assumed you were an experienced visitor? Were you wearing a borrowed gi that was torn and tattered and might lead someone to assume you had been training for years? Are you otherwise athletic and strong, smooth and centered?

A slap can often protect an experienced student from continued bad habits if administered wisely and fairly. I do it often for those who otherwise won't protect themselves. In fact it is a joke in the dojo that a student hasn't really been accepted untill they get popped. But that's the point. For some it might take many years untill I would even consider tapping them. For others it happens the second or third time I need to remind them to protect themselves.
Yes, it's possible that the teacher thought i was more experienced; I practiced judo and jiu-jitsu for years, I have been working out at the gym for years -so I look a bit athletic-, i have been wearing my old judo suit and brown belt and the class is moderately big (about 30-35 students). In fact, this is what I think went wrong. He probably thought I was challenging him or something.

However, he could have seen i am a beginner. I even struggle with some of the simplest exercises and techniques. I can't even sit on my heels for more than 30 seconds. Besides, I wouldn't mind if he had given me an 'educational' slap (to bring up my guard or something-as you describe). But he was furious! He just lost control. And that I find unacceptable.
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Old 10-10-2002, 11:12 AM   #41
Edward
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Quote:
Michael Knecht (MichaelK78) wrote:
i have been wearing my old judo suit and brown belt and the class is moderately big (about 30-35 students). In fact, this is what I think went wrong. He probably thought I was challenging him or something.

However, he could have seen i am a beginner. I even struggle with some of the simplest exercises and techniques. I can't even sit on my heels for more than 30 seconds.
Things are finally starting to make sense. Honestly if a teacher sees a brown belt with a well used gi acting like a beginner and trying to resist his technique while he was just trying to demonstrate it to a clueless beginner. That would be infuriating. I am not trying to excuse the slap but it seems to me justifiable under the particular circumstances.

Last edited by Edward : 10-10-2002 at 11:16 AM.
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Old 10-10-2002, 11:21 AM   #42
Edward
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I would like to bring up something which I believe nobody has mentioned on this thread. Michael's age versus teacher's age. If the 78 in Michael's login name refers to his birth year, this means he's only 24. I imagine that if the teacher was anything above 40, a fatherly correction slap seems quite justifiable.
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Old 10-10-2002, 11:25 AM   #43
Rev_Sully
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Cool I courtesously disagree

Quote:
Edward Karaa (Edward) wrote:
Unfortunately, we spend most of our time in MA learning how to hit people that it becomes almost an instinct. Sometimes, for a fraction of a second, you loose control of yourself, and this is what happens.
I do not think we spend most of our time learning to hit people. We depend on the Uke/Nage relationship to train. One must strike, the other must defend. And the one who strikes must learn to fall and fall correctly which is just as important as any throw, grab or other technique.

Spending time in Kenpo, there we learned how to strike. Aikido is different. I've never experienced a Martial Art so rooted in defense.

Was not one of O-Sensei's goals was the futility of victory over another?

Was this sempai looking for "victory" over Michael? Hmmm...interesting. I think that ideas such as a slap in a dojo shouldn't be rationalized as in a Western-centric 21st century model. Sometimes the One does need motivation to pull head from tuckus. That motivation cames in many colors.

Stay with it Michael. And avoid that sempai if they make you uncomfortable. But part of achieving or being on the road to the true victory of self-mastery is getting over fear. Fear of being struck is a understandable fear but eventually it will become an obstacle on the road to MASAKATSU AGATSU.

"He who knows best knows how little he knows." -Thomas Jefferson
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Old 10-10-2002, 11:30 AM   #44
DanielR
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Quote:
he's only 24. I imagine that if the teacher was anything above 40, a fatherly correction slap seems quite justifiable.
... if the person being slapped considers this justifiable too. I don't think one can assume that, especially in a highly diverse society.

Daniel
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Old 10-10-2002, 11:31 AM   #45
MattRice
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Yeah, I'd say the fact that you had a brown belt on changes things: I was under the impression this was your 3rd MA class ever. Slapping a student under the circumstances you describe still doesn't sound right to me, but given that you were displaying a certain rank I am more apt to understand the teacher's actions. Still, I think the teacher's intent is important to consider. You have to be honest with yourself: was he showing you an opening or trying to humiliate you? Again, you have to talk with him. OR blow it off and keep training...
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Old 10-10-2002, 11:37 AM   #46
bob_stra
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Question

Quote:
Michael Knecht (MichaelK78) wrote:
i have been wearing my old judo suit and brown belt
Why did you wear a brown belt to class?
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Old 10-10-2002, 11:41 AM   #47
G DiPierro
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Quote:
Michael Knecht wrote:
i have been wearing my old judo suit and brown belt
If you are a beginner, then why are you wearing a brown belt? This is a bad idea. You could a make an argument that he should have known by your actions that your belt is from another art, but it's not so clear cut, especially if this dojo wears colored belts for mudansha.
Quote:
But he was furious! He just lost control. And that I find unacceptable.
If he thought you were brown belt level and just resisting him, then I can't fault him too much for getting upset. The fact that you were wearing a brown belt really changes things.
Quote:
Bob S. wrote:
Teacher slaps. Student gets pissed off, takes teacher down, mounts and pounds the snot of of him, then chokes him unconcious.
If the teacher is worth his salt, he should be able to defend himself against his own student. If not, then it was his mistake to have slapped the wrong guy.
Quote:
Budo is great and all, but isn't inherent respect for all individuals a part of aikido?
Judging by the contents of this thread, it seems that respect in Aikido is reserved only for those with whom one agrees.
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Old 10-10-2002, 11:50 AM   #48
Choku Tsuki
 
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Quote:
Michael Knecht (MichaelK78) wrote:
...i have been wearing my old judo suit and brown belt and...he probably thought I was challenging him or something.
DUH! What were you thinking?

Yet. Being kyuless is no excuse for what your teacher did.

Go back, try to fit in a little better and give it another go.

--Chuck
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Old 10-10-2002, 12:00 PM   #49
bob_stra
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Question

[QUOTE}="Judging by the contents of this thread, it seems that respect in Aikido is reserved only for those with whom one agrees.[/quote]


We all bitch and moan, but at the end of the day, I think we all understand that "well, you know, it's an empty boat. People aren't their behavior". Sometimes, on particualr topics, we all have difficulty seperating the person from the action.

Still, to respect means hold with regard. How can anyone have regard for something that goes against one's moral fibre - ie: picking on the "little guy"?

It's not so much abt disrespecting the sensei, but rather the action.

Last edited by bob_stra : 10-10-2002 at 12:04 PM.
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Old 10-10-2002, 12:07 PM   #50
MichaelK78
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Sorry... I meant to say orange belt.

Anyway, I should have mentioned that the custom in that dojo is not to wear any color until 1st dan. So from the fact I was wearing a colored belt alone he could have inferred I was a beginner. (On top of this, every other beginner there -about 2- wears a colored belt)

The reason for this is that I simply don't have any other belt. It was my 3rd lesson and didn't have the time to buy one yet. I also wasn't sure whether I would like aikido, so it would be a waste to buy one and then quit.
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