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Old 04-26-2004, 09:18 AM   #76
Mark Balogh
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Re: Ueshiba vs. Gun Squad

I think the interesting thing about the story is that he used techniques from ninjitsu to survive. Apparently he did a similar thing when his students asked him to demonstrate a technique from Ninjitsu. They all surrounded him, rushed him, he "disappeared" and was waving at them from the office! He also said that ninjitsu was the total opposite of Aikido. Maybe something he had learn't but he never taught?
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Old 04-26-2004, 09:59 AM   #77
Don_Modesto
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Re: Ueshiba vs. Gun Squad

Quote:
Mark Balogh wrote:
I think the interesting thing about the story is that he used techniques from ninjitsu to survive. Apparently he did a similar thing when his students asked him to demonstrate a technique from Ninjitsu. They all surrounded him, rushed him, he "disappeared" and was waving at them from the office! He also said that ninjitsu was the total opposite of Aikido. Maybe something he had learn't but he never taught?
Ninjutsu?!

This is the Stevens version, right?

(Man I wish he would cite his sources.)

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
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Old 04-26-2004, 11:20 AM   #78
DGLinden
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Re: Ueshiba vs. Gun Squad

One of the saddest days of my life was the day I was invited to sit in the first row at a David Copperfield show. I saw how he did each and every trick except making a full sized running automobile appear inside a circle of people holding hands. Once you know how a magical thing happens, it is no longer magic.

I saw a living Aikido shihan cut bananas clean through without disturbing the skin; and he did it with ki alone. I describe it in the first chapter of my book and then tell how he did it. I'd also like to say that stories have a way of getting more and more out of proportion to what actually happened. Wine from water, indeed!

Daniel G. Linden
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Old 04-26-2004, 12:20 PM   #79
tedehara
 
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Exclamation Re: Ueshiba vs. Gun Squad

Quote:
DGLinden wrote:
One of the saddest days of my life was the day I was invited to sit in the first row at a David Copperfield show. I saw how he did each and every trick except making a full sized running automobile appear inside a circle of people holding hands. Once you know how a magical thing happens, it is no longer magic.

I saw a living Aikido shihan cut bananas clean through without disturbing the skin; and he did it with ki alone. I describe it in the first chapter of my book and then tell how he did it. I'd also like to say that stories have a way of getting more and more out of proportion to what actually happened. Wine from water, indeed!
Hasn't it been said that "The truth shall set you free"? Although there may be less magic in your life, it is replaced by more truth.

I recall seeing a two volume work of "Chi Tricks" used by Chinese Masters which was all simple stage illusion. BTW turning water into wine was one of the illusions.

Some people have a need to believe. I like looking behind the curtain, because I have a need to know.

It is not practice that makes perfect, it is correct practice that makes perfect.
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Old 02-25-2005, 10:09 AM   #80
Justin Gaar
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Ki Symbol Re: nonsense

Quote:
Rob Klinglesmith wrote:
As you may already be aware, witnesses are horrible historians. Rob
I was watching a TV Show last night on UFOS (Peter Jennings)
On skeptic scientist said that eyewitness accounts are the lowest form of evidence in science.
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Old 02-25-2005, 02:58 PM   #81
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Talking Re: Ueshiba vs. Gun Squad



A little danger is a knowledge thing...

"Helping the planet make an impact on people, since 1985"
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Old 02-25-2005, 03:53 PM   #82
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Re: Ueshiba vs. Gun Squad

Quote:
Eric Roku wrote:
Hey Mike, this morning when I was out jogging, I saw god. She was african american.
And all this time I thought Alanis Morisette was "god". I figured if Kevin Smith portrayed "god" that way in a movie, it had to be true. But then again, if "god" is as all powerful as all of the non-witnesses say, I suppose she could have coerced mr. Smith into portraying her that way and then in all probability appear as an African American woman to you.

Hmmm....



Carl Bilodeau
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"Yield to temptation it may not pass your way again." - Robert Heinlein
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Old 02-25-2005, 04:37 PM   #83
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Re: assumptions and misconceptions

Quote:
Rob Klinglesmith wrote:
Please forward all my expressions of dissent to the shihan of your choice. Somehow I doubt they care if I believe it, either. Should my disbelief create such ill will in any of them that they seek me out to physically punish me for my human right of critical thought, then I'm really in the wrong martial art.
Or they are.

Carl Bilodeau
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"Yield to temptation it may not pass your way again." - Robert Heinlein
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Old 02-25-2005, 06:24 PM   #84
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Re: Ueshiba vs. Gun Squad

After O'Sensei's war experiences, I believe that he just gained an understanding of how people handled guns, and was able to see how they were fired, like any other instinct that we gain as Aikidoka. It may or may not be exactly as told, but I believe that the gunmen may just have been so uptight that it was just even easier to tell the direction and O'Sensei moved just before the triggers were pulled... sort of like basic stand off between two samurai.

Last edited by Lachlan Kadick : 02-25-2005 at 06:26 PM.

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Old 02-26-2005, 12:52 PM   #85
John Carey
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Re: Ueshiba vs. Gun Squad

I was listening to the Dalai Lama speak about the value of extending your belief to the furthest reaches. He says, one might think that the belief in universal compassion is impractical. But in fact, the belief, and intent, to help bring every sentient being to enlightenment is quite beneficial.

Whether it happened or not, I like to believe it -could- happen.

"Sell your cleverness, and purchase bewilderment"
-Rumi
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Old 07-21-2006, 05:04 AM   #86
Lee Mulgrew
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Re: nonsense

[quote=A number of witnesses saw Jesus walk on water. What he did defies most people's "common sense," yet billions of people throughout history believe that he did it. This fact also defies "common sense."[/QUOTE]

the thruth this statement is false, the translation could read that he eithter walked on, walked through or on the water depending on your defenition of the aramaic text that was used. this does not mean however, that i believe that O'sensei could move 25 metres in a split second to not only dodge a bullet but to get behind the person firing it. I mean.... come on! nobody's that good are they?
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Old 07-21-2006, 06:32 AM   #87
Steve Mullen
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Re: Ueshiba vs. Gun Squad

Wow, jeez ummm where to start. Right.

Weather or not this happened, lets have a look at a few things. O'sensei didn't have to move 25 meters in less time than it took the bullet to hit, he had to move probably about a foot as all of the shooters will have been aiming at his body, (6 guys, one point to aim at, one small body to clear from the point) If the were revolvers then, as has been mentioned there would have been a click before the bang, he could have started his move then. I think a lot of people are addressing this from a view point of modern gunsa and bullets. It would be nigh on impossible for it to happen today as guns fire a lot quicker and bullets move a lot faster.

But back then, guns weren't as quick, bullets as well made etc, so there was more time between trigger being pulled, bullet leaving barrel of gun and bullet travelling 25 meters, thats all he would have needed to move his body out of the way of any number of bullets that were all aimed at the same place.

As for covering the distance, how long does it take people to do a few long rolls down the full length of a matt if they are really trying. 25 meters isn't a lot, 3 maybe 4 seconds. so from initial click to smoke clearing id say that O'sensei had pleanty of time to get there, notice he always threw the guy on the outside = less chance of someone firing late. Take all that with the point someone made of how they would have had to yell fire to all do it at the same time.

Weather he did actually did it or not, to me is immeterial, its not why I started my aikido, BUT if it is why some people did start it then what is the problem? It got them coming to class and then their love of Aikido kept them there. How much good did the Karate Kid do for Karate in the west? LOADS is the answer, does anyone hear people saying "Daniel Larusso didn't really kick that guy in the face with a crane kick, if he had tried the guy would have blocked and broke his leg".

The only thing that everyone seems to agree on here is that O'Sensei was a formidable martial artist and the whole aikido world should be gratefull to him for giving us Aikido. His bullet dodging-ninja skills are just part of what makes up this legend of O'sensei, his skills in Martial arts and budo are what made Aikido, and no one can dispute that the old guy knew what he was talking about there.

"No matter your pretence, you are what you are and nothing more." - Kenshiro Abbe Shihan
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Old 07-21-2006, 07:07 AM   #88
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Re: Ueshiba vs. Gun Squad

I dont think there is a problem in people starting aikido because of a story like this. However there is a problem with people presenting a story like this as fact. This gives the the false idea that you will eventually be able to dodge bullets. This is just as bad as telling someone they can put up a ki shield to prevent all damage done to them by strikes, or that they can knock someone out with astrial spirts.

There are a lot of myths around most important cultural figures. They should be presented as such. Without knowing all the facts, and with only a single stroy to use as evidence (which you can't technically do), we can only call this a myth. It is still a great story though.

Of course there are plusable explainations as to how he could dodge bullets. I myself have dodged paintballs. However, every explaination simply points to the fact that the shooters were aiming at a spot, and not aiming at O'Sensei. But perhaps it was his training that allowed him to see that was the case and to not give up like he did with the sniper.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 07-21-2006, 07:42 AM   #89
philippe willaume
 
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Re: Ueshiba vs. Gun Squad

Hello,
I would like to give my 2 pennies worth here.

Unless you reaction time plus your movement time is inferior to the time it takes a revolver/handgun bullet to travel 20 meters. You are going to get it I.e. about 0.06 and 0.09 second. If we assume a handgun bullet between 300 and 400 ms and before WWII they were closer to 150-220.(0.16 to reach 25 meters). I would expect the really conservative way of thinking of the Japanese military to have ensured that handguns were in the lowest category. That is if you move when you see the flash of the propelling explosion since we are about the speed of sound, you will hear the bang just about getting hit.
Anyway, You simply cannot doge a handgun bullet after or as soon when it is fired (unless you are a vampire, quick silver, the green lantern or flash).
For those who haven’t been in the French armed forces, we usually shot handguns (revolver or automatic) at 25 and 50 meters. 25 meters usually being where the aiming line crosses trajectory of the bullet. (or there about).
Sharp shooting is a tad contradictory with handguns, it has low velocity and a fair variance in the ballistic characteristic (unless specially designed for completion shooting which was not the case for military grade weapons). It saving grace is that the target is going to get most of the bullet energy hence lots of damages.

Revolver can be double or simple action, in a simple action you need to cock the hammer manually. In a bobble action pressing the trigger with cock the hammer and rotate the barrel, and let the hammer strike back the cartridge primer.
From my personal experience, due to the lack of stability and the type of weapon, I find handguns slight slower to track and aim than SMG or rifles.
Handguns are quick to deploy and quick to track, which is what makes them good for close quarter fighting as you can use those characteristics with “instinctive shooting”
But in that case25 meters is a hell of a long way.

However, recently law enforcement and military have been intrested in a few “dodging the bullet” return fire strategy.
“Stand and deliver” have being (and is) the usual handgun strategy, but dropping to one knee as you take aim and or moving to the 10 or 2 o’clock of the opposing shooter and firing several rounds in both case.
Seems to have a better survability rate. Both those technique requires moving before the shot of you opponent is fired. (i.e. when you are acquired or when the weapon is brought to bear not when it is being shot)

In case where the opponent shot at a target, or should we say the space the target occupy, which the case when shooting at a fixed target (especially in volley fire).
The acquisition and tracking is done before the shoot. If you add the firing order movement will throw you off, , and eventually the double action cocking.
That gives the potential target time to get away or in other terms starting before you.
So I would say it is feasible

However if you shot at a moving target, you will delay your shot until you are satisfied with tracking and aiming. This make moving before the shooting order much less efficient if you cannot return fire.

If you want to experiment paint ball are doing 100 m/s or 150 for “military simulator. Which for all intent and purposes it is good enough.

Last edited by philippe willaume : 07-21-2006 at 07:45 AM.
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Old 08-03-2006, 04:10 AM   #90
Lee Mulgrew
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Re: Ueshiba vs. Gun Squad

Quote:
Steve Mullen wrote:
Wow, jeez ummm where to start. Right.

Weather or not this happened, lets have a look at a few things. O'sensei didn't have to move 25 meters in less time than it took the bullet to hit, he had to move probably about a foot as all of the shooters will have been aiming at his body, (6 guys, one point to aim at, one small body to clear from the point) If the were revolvers then, as has been mentioned there would have been a click before the bang, he could have started his move then. I think a lot of people are addressing this from a view point of modern gunsa and bullets. It would be nigh on impossible for it to happen today as guns fire a lot quicker and bullets move a lot faster.

But back then, guns weren't as quick, bullets as well made etc, so there was more time between trigger being pulled, bullet leaving barrel of gun and bullet travelling 25 meters, thats all he would have needed to move his body out of the way of any number of bullets that were all aimed at the same place.

As for covering the distance, how long does it take people to do a few long rolls down the full length of a matt if they are really trying. 25 meters isn't a lot, 3 maybe 4 seconds. so from initial click to smoke clearing id say that O'sensei had pleanty of time to get there, notice he always threw the guy on the outside = less chance of someone firing late. Take all that with the point someone made of how they would have had to yell fire to all do it at the same time.

Weather he did actually did it or not, to me is immeterial, its not why I started my aikido, BUT if it is why some people did start it then what is the problem? It got them coming to class and then their love of Aikido kept them there. How much good did the Karate Kid do for Karate in the west? LOADS is the answer, does anyone hear people saying "Daniel Larusso didn't really kick that guy in the face with a crane kick, if he had tried the guy would have blocked and broke his leg".

The only thing that everyone seems to agree on here is that O'Sensei was a formidable martial artist and the whole aikido world should be gratefull to him for giving us Aikido. His bullet dodging-ninja skills are just part of what makes up this legend of O'sensei, his skills in Martial arts and budo are what made Aikido, and no one can dispute that the old guy knew what he was talking about there.
Fair point(s) mate I'll just go shut up now
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Old 08-03-2006, 05:54 AM   #91
Steve Mullen
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Re: Ueshiba vs. Gun Squad

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO please don't we still love you

"No matter your pretence, you are what you are and nothing more." - Kenshiro Abbe Shihan
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Old 08-03-2006, 06:00 AM   #92
Steve Mullen
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Re: nonsense

Quote:
Lee Mulgrew wrote:
the thruth this statement is false, the translation could read that he eithter walked on, walked through or on the water depending on your defenition of the aramaic text that was used.
See this is really interesting, I read a similar thing about moses parting the red sea. The text for red and reed is apparently similar in aramaic, and there was a stretch of water next to the red sea which was filled with reeds, the pilgrims would have been able to get through, but any kind of chariot would have had great trouble getting through it. As the years went on I guess the story got glorified (as always happens). A similar thing may have happened with the o'sensei story.

He may have dodged out of the way of the bullet, and then ran at the guy and threw him, but over the years the distance has got bigger, and the time it took him shorter.

Both great stories tho.

"No matter your pretence, you are what you are and nothing more." - Kenshiro Abbe Shihan
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Old 08-03-2006, 06:40 AM   #93
ian
 
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Re: Ueshiba vs. Gun Squad

I had heard the stoy before Shiodas book had come out. I would say I believe it. Reaction times are about 1/4 second (much slower than a bullet). What is required is the judgement of when someone is going to fire. Basically if a group of people all fire at once and aim at you directly, and you can judge when they will fire, dodging bullets is not that difficult. 'intuition' is a key skill to develop in aikido. Ueshiba said he could see golden bullets - I think that is a mystical way of saying he could predict when someone was going to fire. Dodging bullets from an untrained person would be much more difficult (as you don't know where they are firing!)

P.S. the speed of a bullet is dependent on the length of the barrel, so modern bullets don't necessarily travel faster.

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
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Old 08-03-2006, 07:03 AM   #94
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Re: Ueshiba vs. Gun Squad

as always, some people will interpret this story literally, some figuratively, and some in between.

frankly, i don't see what is so unbelieveable about this story. teino tenkan is (IMHO) the foundation of aikido. it is always the first technique we practice in the dojo.

this story simply reinforces the notion that you can dodge *any* attack if you are behind it before it happens. the story is not important, the moral of the story is what's important.

same with religion: some people think it's fairy tales, some people take it literally. in my opinion, the significance of religion lies in the purpose.
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Old 08-03-2006, 09:37 AM   #95
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Re: Ueshiba vs. Gun Squad

I love alot of the stories about O'sensei that I have read, alot of them make he seem more like a figure out of mythology though, I do believe there is alot of truth to all of the stories but I think they have been embelished which is not an unusual occurance. Much like the fisher man who started out with catching the small big mouth bass and eventually he talks about the massive struggle he had in which he wrestled a bull shark with his bare hands and finally threw him onto the boat, or something like that

Dan Hulley
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Old 08-03-2006, 07:32 PM   #96
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Re: nonsense

[quote=Lee Mulgrew]the thruth this statement is false, the translation could read that he eithter walked on, walked through or on the water depending on your defenition of the aramaic text /QUOTE]

I should probably just let this go. but... since you were talking about Jesus walking on water... um, I'm pretty sure the New Testament was written in Greek, not Aramaic.

And since the exact translation seems important to you, the Greek word used to describe Jesus walking on the water is "epi" (spelled epsilon pi iota... sorry I don't have a Greek letter font).

The translation of "epi" is "on" or "upon"

<bowing deeply to Jun for being off-topic>


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Old 08-08-2006, 08:35 PM   #97
thkun
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Re: Ueshiba vs. Gun Squad

these were really unbelievable stories. i cant believe that kind of legend. osensei was a great sensei but he was not superman. i dont think anyone can escape the bullet. if yes, please provide evidents. this is ridiculous and illogical to believe such kind of things. how could they knew osensei can really escape the bullets before they fired. if osensei couldnt escape , who would take the responsible to kill an old man.

i know many people treat osensei as god. but i rather believe these kinds of stories are for promotion of aikido.
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Old 08-08-2006, 09:32 PM   #98
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Re: Ueshiba vs. Gun Squad

Quote:
i know many people treat osensei as god. but i rather believe these kinds of stories are for promotion of aikido.
I agree. I feel the same way about jesus.
Maybe Jesus and Ueshiba just had great PR guys.

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If you're tired, keep moving.
If you value you're life, keep moving.

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Old 08-09-2006, 06:23 AM   #99
Steve Mullen
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Re: Ueshiba vs. Gun Squad

Can you imagine their PR guys having an argument

"my guy can dodge bullets, and throw people for miles with no effort, his kiai is so powerful it can knock birds out of trees, he created a martial art that has spread across the world, he was kicking ass to his last"

"my guy is the son of god"

"you win"

"No matter your pretence, you are what you are and nothing more." - Kenshiro Abbe Shihan
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Old 08-09-2006, 07:10 AM   #100
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Re: Ueshiba vs. Gun Squad

Hey Jesus's PR guys had 400 years to work with

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If you're tired, keep moving.
If you value you're life, keep moving.

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