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Old 10-03-2002, 12:21 PM   #26
mike lee
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Cool warped perceptions

Quote:
You take it for granted and beleive what you have been told without any tangible proof. That's not being open minded.
As I said before -- there are more solid facts in the story than any of the posters have provided to debunk the story. I would have to be absolutely insane to believe any of the posters on this thread that say the story can't be true and yet provide no evidence for such a presumption.

If you feel that I'm not being open minded, then so be it.

I never once said that I believed the story was true -- I only asked posters who believed that the story wasn't true, to provide some solid reasons to support their opinions. Thus far, there have been none.

Last edited by mike lee : 10-03-2002 at 12:25 PM.
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Old 10-03-2002, 12:48 PM   #27
REK
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Re: warped perceptions

Quote:
Mike Lee (mike lee) wrote:
As I said before -- there are more solid facts in the story than any of the posters have provided to debunk the story. I would have to be absolutely insane to believe any of the posters on this thread that say the story can't be true and yet provide no evidence for such a presumption.

....

I never once said that I believed the story was true -- I only asked posters who believed that the story wasn't true, to provide some solid reasons to support their opinions. Thus far, there have been none.
I think the dissenting point is that eyewitness testimony does not constitute "fact". You have only a story, no "facts", no documentation of the shooter's identities, the weapons used, the conditions, the actual distances, etc. Even Shioda Shihan could not relay exactly what happened. He is, by his own admission, unsure. If the only support for your belief is Shioda Shihan's tale, that's fine. I have no interest in trying to alter your faith in his veracity. I also don't have to agree with you.

I beleive that Ueshiba O'Sensei was an exemplary martial artist, whose skills were likely unrivaled in his time. The laws of physics, however, restrain even his abilities.

Rob

________________________
Mors certa, hora incerta
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Old 10-03-2002, 03:30 PM   #28
Alfonso
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Is there no one left who will validate / add to these stories?

I find it amazing that only half a century later there is such confusion as to the abilities of a person who has been filmed , photographed, interviewed etc.

If the translations are accurate O'sensei himself narrated some unbelievable (by common sense standards stuff), including disbanding armed mongolian bandits, holding off 30 young policement bent on 'testing' him , etc.

I confess that I was attracted to Aikido when I was 8 due to these stories. If they are untrue, if they are lies used by self serving people to promote their cause I'd like to know it.

As it is, I believe Mike Lee is right in pointing out that these stories havent' been actively discredited.

in any case whatever fills your cup of tea..
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Old 10-03-2002, 04:36 PM   #29
Roy Dean
 
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Mike,

"Japanese are not known to carry out scams in an effort to promote martial arts."

Actually, they are. The Japanese are quite fond of doing "works" (aka fake fights). It is common for them to intersperse these works with real fights in MMA events. The famous pro-wrestler Takada has done several, including a laughable victory over UFC and Pride Grand Prix Champion Mark Coleman. The Japanese are into spectacle and showmanship. An educated eye can spot the "work", while those that want to believe may not even notice the difference.

I love reading your posts, Mike. You are a fervent believer and defender of Aikido.

But understand that a shihan is just a shihan. They have rank, knowledge, and skill- nothing more. Some shihan are alcoholics. Others intentionally injure their students. Or take a look at Bruce Klickstein... hell, even OSensei is rumored to have engaged in marital improprieties. They are all human. They are all flawed. Their words should carry weight in their realm of expertise. That's all.

Sincerely,

Roy Dean

Discover Who You Are

www.roydeanacademy.com
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Old 10-03-2002, 05:35 PM   #30
Steven
 
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Quote:
Wynand van Dyk (drDalek) wrote:
Do you believe that David Copperfield can realy fly? That trick is pretty convincing, then again its still only a trick...
WHAT?!?!? WHAT?!?!? HE CAN'T REALLY FLY?!?!?

Damn ... I'm gonna have to sue to get my money back ... Damn ...

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Old 10-03-2002, 05:39 PM   #31
Andy
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Eyewitness testimony has been studied and researched to be found unreliable: 1 2 3 4 5. Just because the witness was "highly ranked" shows nothing. Arthur Conan Doyle was very highly regarded in England, but he was still taken in by hoaxes.

I can just see these guys at the shotting center.

"Sir, we have Ueshiba Sensei, a very well respected martial arts master, who wants us to shoot at him so he can prove he can dodge bullets. I tried to scare him off by having him sign a waver, but that didn't work. The guy even put his thumbprint on the thing."

"Did you try that army court trick?"

"Yes, sir. The venerable teacher did not back away."

"Well, we can't kill the guy, no matter what he signed. Let's get Tanaka, our best guy to take a shot at the guy and deliberately miss. Heck, if we're going to do that, let's get Tanaka and five more of our best shooters out there to deliberately miss. That way, Ueshiba Sensei doesn't get killed and our school won't be shamed for having killed him or having backed down."

"Yes, sir."
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Old 10-03-2002, 06:47 PM   #32
johnkeya
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Pretty funny stuff!

I think, though, that the responsibility of proof lies in the one trying to actually prove something (in this case, that O'Sensei could dodge bullets). You can't really prove a negative. To try to "prove" with facts that something like this "didn't happen" doesn't really make any sense. At least not to me... It is a pretty cool story though.

I do whatever the Rice Krispies
tell me to do....
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Old 10-03-2002, 07:08 PM   #33
Abasan
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Since you guys are all about the facts, why don't you settle the issue by going through the military files of that day. I would think that since they have taken the precaution of documenting O-sensei's acquiescence, it would still be there in their records.

And by inference, if its there, it must be reasonable to assume that osensei went through the shooting and came out alive.

Although, after reading andy's account of it... i'm not so sure anymore.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 10-04-2002, 01:13 AM   #34
drDalek
 
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Okay, sorry for calling you a troll mike, as the saying goes, never attribute to malice what can easily be explained through ignorance.

You do seem to be pretty insecure about something though to want to defend this story with so much zeal, I can understand how one might not like the idea of having to change established world-views that you have formed but you do need to approach everything you hear and even see with objectivity and an open but analytical, scientific mind.

I am loathe to accept the claims of people like Rod Sacharnosky with his particular brand of "Combat Ki" and even the more blatant charlatans who push their "students" over using only the power of their ki.

I am however not calling anyone a liar or a charlatan in this matter but the suggestion that Andy made in post 31 does seem to fit what I think what happened.

This however is my opinion, and you are entitled to your opinion however wrong it might be (in my opinion)
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Old 10-04-2002, 05:18 AM   #35
paw
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I was positive that this has been discussed before on another forum, but I cannot find the link.
Quote:
"Well, we can't kill the guy, no matter what he signed. Let's get Tanaka, our best guy to take a shot at the guy and deliberately miss. Heck, if we're going to do that, let's get Tanaka and five more of our best shooters out there to deliberately miss. That way, Ueshiba Sensei doesn't get killed and our school won't be shamed for having killed him or having backed down."
In any case, as I recall, the discussion was similar to what Andy wrote. The army shooters were unwilling to kill an innocent man, and O Sensei recognized this. The hunter, for whatever reason, was willing to kill an innocent man and O Sensei also recognized this and withdrew the challenge.

At least, that's how I recall the thread going, but I certainly could be wrong in my recollections.

Regards,

Paul
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Old 10-05-2002, 02:57 AM   #36
mike lee
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coming to africa

Quote:
Okay, sorry for calling you a troll mike, as the saying goes, never attribute to malice what can easily be explained through ignorance.
Withdrawing one insult and replacing it with another. Who's ignorant?
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Old 10-05-2002, 03:04 AM   #37
mike lee
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true ignorance

Quote:
Just because the witness was "highly ranked" shows nothing.
There were at least 8 witnesses in the story, including O'Sensei himself. While the shihan admitted that he was unsure about what had occured at the demonstration, he did not say he was unclear about what O'Sensei said about the event.

Those that wish to discredit not only O'Sensei, along with an aikido shihan without reason are on very thin ice. I myself like to keep my feet on good old terra firma.

Last edited by mike lee : 10-05-2002 at 03:06 AM.
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Old 10-05-2002, 05:04 AM   #38
mike lee
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powerless gods

Quote:
Eyewitness testimony has been studied and researched to be found unreliable ..
By whom?

If the demonstration was a hoax, who perpetrated the hoax? (Based on facts and not conjecture, please.)

Last edited by mike lee : 10-05-2002 at 05:08 AM.
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Old 10-05-2002, 06:21 AM   #39
L. Camejo
 
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Lightbulb A few thoughts...

Hi all. Nice Discussion.

I remember when I read these stories about O-Sensei the first time, back to back. To me they demonstrated something very interesting about the founder.

In the case of the 6 shooters I think O-Sensei had time (some days I think) to mentally prepare himself for the engagement, plan a strategy or whatever you will. It did not happen on the spot, as such he entered the situation already prepared for what was to transpire, knowing what was to come. To me, foreknowledge is a major advantage in any scenario like this. It is also possible that a person at O-Sensei's level could "sense"- for lack of a better term- the preparedness and willingness of the soldiers to shoot him (thru body language, metsuke or whatever). In swordsmanship, this resolve or spirit can mean the difference between life, mutual kill or death. It is my beliefe that in this case O-Sensei knew he could dodge these bullets, not based on the skill of the men or the quality of weapons used, but on the possibility that they did not have the "heart" or "spirit" to shoot him. Hence if their intent was lacking, their technique would be as well.

In the case of the village sniper his mental fortitude was absolute. He would kill Ueshiba without flinching, and he had the skill to do it. On the reverse side, from the story I read on Aikidofaq.com, Shioda was the one who brought the sharpshooter to O-sensei without having told him first. Hence, he was caught mentally unprepared for such a situation with the extra problem of having a worthy opponent with the confidence and "heart" to pull it off.

Wisely I think he saw the vast difference in composure and resolve between 6 sharpshooters who think that shooting is about aiming and pulling a trigger, as against a seasoned veteran who's idea of marksmanship was to visualise where you want the bullet to be.

I am very happy that he chose to back down in the second scenario, else we may have lost a very skilled martial artist. Had he had the time to prepare for this engagement as well, I am not sure what would have been the outcome.

Just some thoughts, have no more access to the facts than anyone else, but this is what I got from the story.

L.C.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
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Old 10-05-2002, 01:08 PM   #40
siwilson
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Quote:
Your "common sense" is not equal to evidence in the form of witnesses who give first-hand accounts.

A number of witnesses saw Jesus walk on water. What he did defies most people's "common sense," yet billions of people throughout history believe that he did it. This fact also defies "common sense."
Hi Mike,

Let me just tell you something about your example of Jesus. The word for "on" was the same as for "by", but with a mark above one letter (as told to me by a collegue who is a bit of a theologian). So, it could be easy to mistake Jesus walking by the water with him walking on it. Walking on water sounds better though doesn't it?

Also, don't worry about meeting Shioda Sensei one day, as he passed away 8 years ago!

I have had the pleasure of being a student of 3 Sensei who trained under Shioda Sensei and they said that Shioda Sensei liked his stories, as my teachers did. And I too actually! (Hmm - pattern forming)

This did happen, but the way it happened is not known. Shioda Sensei says that himself.

When I do Jiyu Waza against an Uke with a real knife I know he is not trying to kill me... If he was I would not let him get back up and attack me again......

Osu!
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Old 10-05-2002, 03:25 PM   #41
bob_stra
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Re: warped perceptions

Quote:
Mike Lee (mike lee) wrote:
As I said before -- there are more solid facts in the story than any of the posters have provided to debunk the story.

I never once said that I believed the story was true -- I only asked posters who believed that the story wasn't true, to provide some solid reasons to support their opinions. Thus far, there have been none.
It must be the late hour, or the impetuous nature of youth, but I'll take a stab at that thar' cupie doll...

(note - it's late and I'm fudging these numbers slightly for simplification. Will

approximations suffice or do I need to crack open the books? ;-)

A neural impulse works at a speed of around 400km / hr. Preceding this is the act of

perception (assuming dogging bullets isn't a spinal cord level function). Let's say that

takes 4/ 100th of a second. Let's be generous and say that upon receiving the neural

message from the brain the muscles act instantaneously (they don't but what the hey)

Perception + processing + message to muscles + action = dodge bullet.

For the sake of simplification (see above caveat) let the whole shebang = 10th of a

second.

Even assuming a sub-sonic bullet (let's say 200 m / sec) given the distance of 40 feet

that equals abt 0.075 of a second to reach intended target. Times that by 6 shooters,

presumably firing at slightly different body areas.

To move out of the way of such a barrage, one would have to move at speed closely

approximating the bullets. Even if such speeds were possible, the required force would

tear the muscles off the bone.

That leaves the option of pre-cognition which, given the late hour, I ain't touching ;-)
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Old 10-06-2002, 03:43 AM   #42
Ta Kung
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It's a shame that we've yet to hear from any one of the others involved. I sure like to hear from the shooters, or from anyone who have heard their story.

I'm going to give this topic a rest. I don't think we will solve this riddle. Some people will choose to believe no matter what. Others only believe when there is solid evidence.

Regards,

Patrik
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Old 10-06-2002, 02:46 PM   #43
mj
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Currently, I am researching rennes le chateau....truth and deception are not easily seperated in any of these things.

However I did see a video with three uchideshi pushing at a jo while a 70 odd year old Osensei held it out sideways, they couldn't move it or him. He was very relaxed. I wouldn't have believed thatif it was in a book, either.

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Old 10-06-2002, 04:24 PM   #44
Kenn
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Re: nonsense

mike, don't be silly, the only evidence for this act is the Bible, which has been proven to be full of inacuracies and contradicitons.

A number of witnesses saw Jesus walk on water. What he did defies most people's "common sense," yet billions of people throughout history believe that he did it. This fact also defies "common sense."[/quote]

Kenn

Remember, the only way to be happy always, is to be happy always, without reason.
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Old 10-06-2002, 05:06 PM   #45
Suru
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The only mystery here isn't whether the story is true. Rather, it is how does anyone over the age of 5 possibly believe it for a second? Do you think if I walked up to a National Guardsmen in the airport and told him I could dodge bullets he would aim his sidearm at me and pull the trigger?

Drew
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Old 10-06-2002, 05:21 PM   #46
Kenn
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Tell me about it drew.....you still there?

Kenn

Remember, the only way to be happy always, is to be happy always, without reason.
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Old 10-06-2002, 11:30 PM   #47
PhilJ
 
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Bob, loved that post. Reminds me of the funny that explains the physics behind Santa Claus's trips on Christmas Eve.

This is definitely a "wouldn't it be cool if it were true" story. Didn't M. Ueshiba claim that these "ninja" tricks took years off his life?

Phillip Johnson
Enso Aikido Dojo, Burnsville, MN
An Aikido Bukou Dojo
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Old 10-07-2002, 12:43 AM   #48
bob_stra
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Quote:
Phillip Johnson (PhilJ) wrote:
Bob, loved that post. Reminds me of the funny that explains the physics behind Santa Claus's trips on Christmas Eve.
We aim to please

(bows)



The *real* question is.... could Santa dodge six bullets.
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Old 10-07-2002, 02:01 AM   #49
Ta Kung
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I know I said I would rest from this topic, but I've got something I'd like to share. Yesterday a friend of mine was at a paintball match. When we talked about it, it got me thinking of the last time I played.

I remember that I could see the "bullets" coming at me. They seemed to go slow, but all of a sudden they were making a mess on my goggles. I remember that I also saw the shots that were fired beside me, and I could acctually see them going in an arc shape. Even the wind had their trajectory (big word, bad spelling? ) altered.

Even though I saw these paintball shots coming at me, I couldn't react fast enough to move away. These shots are WAY slower than an ordinary bullet.

Now, if someone could stand still, let someone else fire at him, and still dodge these paintball bullets... then I'd be amazed. And to think about dodging real bullets? No way!
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Old 10-07-2002, 03:04 AM   #50
mike lee
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knowledge is power

Quote:
Now, if someone could stand still, let someone else fire at him, and still dodge these paintball bullets... then I'd be amazed. And to think about dodging real bullets? No way!
O'Sensei never "dodged bullets." When the guns were fired, he wasn't there.
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