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Old 03-02-2007, 06:19 PM   #1
SamuraiJim
Dojo: Aikido Yuiskinkai, Bald Hills
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Without Physical Contact

Hi All

I'm training in a style called Aikido Yuishinkai and was watching a training DVD purchased through my club. In a number of techniques it appeared to me that there was not actual contact between nage and uke.

It appeared to me that uke would rush in to attack and then simply take a fall in the direction motioned by nage. I can appreciate that an aggressor would be relucant to run into a block or strike but it seemed to my untrained eye that even if they did there would be little negative effect.

I'm very new to Aikido and understand that I have a great deal to learn. But I was wondering what makes these techniques effective and if they would really work in a real life situation when forced to defend yourself.

Your insight is greatly appreciated.

Cheers
SamuraiJim
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Old 03-02-2007, 07:15 PM   #2
gdandscompserv
 
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Re: Without Physical Contact

Not to familiar with the style but this video:
http://www.aikidoyuishinkai.com/SeminarSample.wmv
and this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LbFfzRFw1I
looks like pretty normal "touch" aikido to me.
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Old 03-02-2007, 08:33 PM   #3
SeiserL
 
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Re: Without Physical Contact

IMHO, most throws without physical contact are (1) total fakes due to an overly compliant uke, or (2) well timed movement by tori/nage that make uke lose balance.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 03-04-2007, 12:25 AM   #4
SamuraiJim
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Re: Without Physical Contact

Thanks Ricky and Thanks Lynn. I value your input.

I've not heard of "touch" Aikido before - I'm guessing it's a technique that only requires the most minimal of contact to unbalance your opponent.

The techniques I'm trying to describe aren't really throws there more like movements which cause the aggressor to move defensively into a position which is off balance and hence causes them to fall.

I really wish I could show you what I mean. Wouldn't it be consider ill-mannered to ask my Sensei about the process and principles behind these moves?

Cheers
SamuraiJim
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Old 03-04-2007, 08:52 AM   #5
SeiserL
 
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Re: Without Physical Contact

Quote:
James Cantwell wrote: View Post
Wouldn't it be consider ill-mannered to ask my Sensei about the process and principles behind these moves?
IMHO, it is never ill-mannered to ask sincere questions, in a respectful way, at an appropirate time.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 03-04-2007, 10:57 AM   #6
Lyle Bogin
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Re: Without Physical Contact

When I am thinking a lot about aikido I look for examples in my daily adventures, and I think I've seen some no touch throws.

Usually they occur when people get freaked out and freeze up suddenly, or when they are suddenly shocked by something loud or large or fast. Next thing you know they trip or just go splat.

Once I was walking along 42nd street at 8th avenue in manhattan and I saw a guy, maybe in his late 50s, get startled by a bus honking and start to go down right in front of a construction site (the bus never touched him, it just yelled and suddenly appeared). To my amazement he did a smooth shoulder roll out of it, diving over a small pile of 2X4s.

Anyway, if you can create a large enough presence, or if you can vanish, I think you can toss somebody without getting physical.
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Old 03-04-2007, 11:18 AM   #7
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Re: Without Physical Contact

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
IMHO, most throws without physical contact are (1) total fakes due to an overly compliant uke, or (2) well timed movement by tori/nage that make uke lose balance.
I once was on the receiving end of (2). Sensei had me rush at him and grab the lapels of his keiko-gi as hard as I could. Twice, I did this to him. On the third try, suddenly he wasn't there... I was completely off balance, so to avoid planting myself face first on the mat I used my momentum to go into a jumping forward roll that carried me to the far corner of the mat. My dojo-mates said it was the farthest I had ever been "thrown".

Inocencio Maramba, MD, MSc
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Old 03-05-2007, 05:12 PM   #8
mriehle
 
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Re: Without Physical Contact

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
IMHO, most throws without physical contact are (1) total fakes due to an overly compliant uke, or (2) well timed movement by tori/nage that make uke lose balance.
I would further add that it isn't always easy to tell the difference and if you can do (2) with some people you shouldn't assume you can do it with others.

The key here is the "well-timed" bit. Thing is, I can time perfectly my movements with certain people that I know well. People I don't know so well, sometimes yes, sometimes no. This isn't a case of the people I know being compliant either. It works best, in fact, when they try to screw me up (which I am above enjoing, of course. ).

Mostly, though, (2) happens by accident, IME.

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Old 03-05-2007, 08:51 PM   #9
SamuraiJim
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Re: Without Physical Contact

Thanks Lynn, Lyle, Cito and Michael

I'm starting to think it must be a well timed counter from nage which forces uke into a position which is unbalanced. It just looks really odd to see an attack neutralized without contact.

I hope to ask my Sensei about it at this evenings training. I'll keep you posted on what I learn.

Thanks again everyone.

Cheers
SamuraiJim
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Old 03-06-2007, 02:58 PM   #10
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Without Physical Contact

In one of the many archival films of M. Ueshiba that are posted on YouTube, part of the footage shows him walking toward a student (seated on the dojo sidelines during a demo), who just falls over backwards, his hand raised over his head as though to ward off an impending blow. Ueshiba kind of shrugs, grins and walks away.


Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 03-06-2007 at 03:10 PM.
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Old 03-06-2007, 09:23 PM   #11
Tharis
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Re: Without Physical Contact

In my experience, it's like a lead. As you attack, at some point you commit to a particular point on nage's person, often his wrist. Nage, realizing you've zeroed in on this point, moves the target ever so subtly in such a fashion as to lead you off balance. By the time you reach him, you're already halfway into a roll and you follow through because stopping would be harder and would put you in a very vulnerable position vis a vis nage.

At least, such has been my experience.

Does that help?
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Old 03-07-2007, 06:12 PM   #12
Thomas Campbell
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Re: Without Physical Contact

Ueshiba had nothing on Benny Hinn.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ok4Hv0LQiIA
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Old 03-07-2007, 08:58 PM   #13
darin
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Re: Without Physical Contact

Benny Hill?
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Old 03-08-2007, 05:56 AM   #14
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Re: Without Physical Contact

Quote:
Michael Riehle wrote: View Post
I would further add that it isn't always easy to tell the difference and if you can do (2) with some people you shouldn't assume you can do it with others.
Good point

Quote:
Michael Riehle wrote: View Post
The key here is the "well-timed" bit. Thing is, I can time perfectly my movements with certain people that I know well. People I don't know so well, sometimes yes, sometimes no. This isn't a case of the people I know being compliant either. It works best, in fact, when they try to screw me up (which I am above enjoing, of course. ).
I'm with you here too .

Quote:
Michael Riehle wrote: View Post
Mostly, though, (2) happens by accident, IME.
Depends on whether I was training for it and trying to do it, or trying to do something else

A difficult problem is easily solved by asking yourself the question, "Just how would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
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Old 03-08-2007, 01:26 PM   #15
mriehle
 
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Re: Without Physical Contact

Quote:
Bryan Bateman wrote: View Post
Depends on whether I was training for it and trying to do it, or trying to do something else
Well, I did say "mostly". It is kind of amazing how much more often such "accidents" happen when we practice this stuff.

The comments here about leading are apropos as well. People who I've successfully done this to describe the feeling as having their conscious mind shut down and their hands just follow me wherever I lead. One person told me they had just gone blank and then were picking themselves up off the mat.

This, actually, is one of the reasons why I'm skeptical of some of the no-touch throw videos I see. If that description is accurate, it means things are happening on a subconscious level. That's not going to keep happening for an indefinite period of time, sooner or later the conscious mind will assert itself. Too many of the videos seem to either have no apparent leading in them (and, yes, sometimes it is difficult to tell unless you are the one experiencing the throw, still....) or the "pin" goes on long after any sane person's conscious mind would have reasserted itself.

I've heard the assertion that deja vu is caused by neurons firing out of sync and causing your consciousness to fall behind your perceptions. I suspect that real no-touch throws work on a similar principle. If this is true, then you should be able to train yourself to counter them in the same manner that you train yourself to counter any other throw.

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Old 03-08-2007, 04:42 PM   #16
Tom Fish
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Re: Without Physical Contact

I think there is a legitimate use of falling, when avoiding atemi to the face for instance, or a sudden drop from nage where uke must fall to avoid tripping etc. I don't think of these instances in the same "no touch" category as people falling all over the mat from a wave of the hand. I have had instances where the only place I could move was occupied by nage and falling was the only place to go. I have been so unbalanced by nage that it took so little effort to throw me that it looked like I threw my self. This seems to be what you are talking about and you should definitely ask your instructor about it. Good luck with your training.
Tom
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Old 03-09-2007, 12:27 PM   #17
Mike Galante
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Smile Re: Without Physical Contact

What are you guys talking about? Why is "touch" Aikido different from no touch Aikido? When you are grabbed, punched, are you not leading his KI/Mind?
How much harder is it to do a technique from static than from a dynamic attack? Right?
So the dynamic attack is responded to by not allowing Uke to grab completely. So he is trying to grab completely, as his mind told his arm and hand to do. Only you are leading the "donkey" with the carrot. Just outside his power. If the donkey can follow a no touch stimulus, then how much better can a human being.

All you need to have is Uke's commitment in attack.

Boxers, and other athletes, and MAists, use fakes all the time, consider the jab in boxing. Does his opponents head not snap back in anticipation? Atemi, with commitment, is similar. That is no touch, is it not?

So it is a matter of leading ukes mind. Don't break the connection, the energy, the flow. Koku Breathe Uke in breathe uke out.

Simple. Right? Yeah right.

We keep on training, we keep on training ...... Perfection?
Completion? Attainment? All are obstacles.

Never stop training.

All the Best
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Old 03-09-2007, 12:50 PM   #18
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Without Physical Contact

Tom,

I NEVER Fall, NEVER. I simply choose a different place and position to occupy in which to align myself with Uke for my next action.

I am also never LOST, i am only temporarily, geographically challenged.



It is all in how you view it that makes all the difference!

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Old 03-09-2007, 01:47 PM   #19
Tom Fish
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Re: Without Physical Contact

Hi Kevin,
I have been lucky enough to have the choice removed. The fall was all that was given. That being said, I practice falling for Judo and Aikido even though some people disagree with this practice. It does help with conditioning, warm up, and stretching out. I even enjoy it. I do work on my other skills as well. As far as being lost, I'm continuously lost and I hope to always keep searching. Keep on posting man, perhaps I'll find my way.
Best Regards
Tom
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Old 03-10-2007, 06:01 PM   #20
SamuraiJim
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Re: Without Physical Contact

Wow! Thanks everyone for your input. It's great to see the diverse opinions people have. I guess this is why there are so many different styles of Aikido.

I put this question to two of the senior students at our dojo (our regular Sensei was away). Both were very adamant that the cause of uke's fall/tumble/throw was due to Ki extension from nage.

From what I've learned so far about "Yuishinkai" Aikido is that the idea of Ki and Ki extension are central in all it's techniques and principles. This is something I'm still unsure of - I guess in part because I'm still only a novice and it tends to be human nature to doubt what can't be rationally explained or backed up by hard scienctific fact. I'm determined to keep an open mind about this and be open to the teachings and experiences associated with learn this form of Aikido.

It looks like there isn't any clear answer here and it's up to the individual to form their own view.

Once again - a big thanks to everyone offering their insight, please keep your comments coming.

Cheers
SamuraiJim
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Old 03-11-2007, 05:04 AM   #21
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Re: Without Physical Contact

Tom, I was just making light of it, as you know.

No problem practicing falling, of taking ukemi, rolling etc. It is important to know how to do these things correctly.

These days, I don't like to do it as much anymore cause it hurts like hell and takes me days to recover.

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Old 03-11-2007, 05:09 AM   #22
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Re: Without Physical Contact

James wrote:

Quote:
I put this question to two of the senior students at our dojo (our regular Sensei was away). Both were very adamant that the cause of uke's fall/tumble/throw was due to Ki extension from nage.
Yes many ways to look at and interpret.

Sometimes uke can fall through no action of nage at all. Uke can over commit his balance, center (Ki if you want to use this term), and fall with no assistance what-so-ever.

However, in the vision of what your sensei is looking at things...

Yes, I could see how philosophically that nage/uke would be in relation to their KI and that uke's response would be predicated by nage's actions (KI) and react in a way to recover balance/center/posture...that is fall.

I don't think this is the only reason we fall though. Some uke's really need no help at all!

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Old 03-11-2007, 09:39 AM   #23
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Re: Without Physical Contact

Quote:
James Cantwell wrote: View Post
...<snip>...It appeared to me that uke would rush in to attack and then simply take a fall in the direction motioned by nage. I can appreciate that an aggressor would be relucant to run into a block or strike but it seemed to my untrained eye that even if they did there would be little negative effect.

I'm very new to Aikido and understand that I have a great deal to learn. But I was wondering what makes these techniques effective and if they would really work in a real life situation when forced to defend yourself.

Your insight is greatly appreciated.

Cheers
SamuraiJim
Granted, such training is representative of a scenarion where the aggressor is so piss of with you; that he is so enraged and he wants to take your head off. It is such scenarios that aikido works best. In situation where such outcome is not possible, you can either WALK-AWAY (TM) or make him/her come charging at you by employing some psychological tricks.

Boon,

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 03-11-2007, 12:44 PM   #24
gregstec
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Re: Without Physical Contact

Quote:
James Cantwell wrote: View Post

From what I've learned so far about "Yuishinkai" Aikido is that the idea of Ki and Ki extension are central in all it's techniques and principles. This is something I'm still unsure of - I guess in part because I'm still only a novice and it tends to be human nature to doubt what can't be rationally explained or backed up by hard scienctific fact. I'm determined to keep an open mind about this and be open to the teachings and experiences associated with learn this form of Aikido.
Cheers
SamuraiJim
Hi Jim,

As you may be aware, the founder of your style of Aikido is Koretoshi Maruyama. Back in the early days of the Ki Society, he was an 8th Dan under Tohei and was Ki Society's chief instructor. In the eighties he left the Ki Society to spend about ten years studying in Temple, and when he came out, he started up Yuishinkai.

As a student of Tohei, a focus on Ki is very prevalent in his teaching. He also believes the mind moves the body and has heavy emphases on positive Mind. For more insight into his teaching, try to find a copy of his book called Aikido with Ki; or any of Tohei's books as well. I have had the opportunity to train with him on many occasions back in the seventies when he would travel to teach at the many Ki Society dojos in the Pacific (I was in Guam at the time) Anyway, he really can perform the no touch throw as explained by Lynn's no. 2 example.

Regards
Greg
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Old 03-12-2007, 10:22 AM   #25
mriehle
 
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Re: Without Physical Contact

Quote:
Michele Galante wrote: View Post
Why is "touch" Aikido different from no touch Aikido?
This is a good point. It speaks, ironically, to why it's useful to practice "no-touch" throws.

Realistically, you're not likely to use no-touch throws against a real, committed attack. But you are likely to need to lead the attacker and be sensitive to his energy, his ki, really. One value of practicing no-touch throws is that they really don't work without that sensitivity and an honest uke will make the failure obvious to you in a dramatic way.

A "nice" uke will simply stop moving if you do it wrong. A less polite uke will likely knock you down. Either way you get it that the lead was wrong and you can't cheat when you can't just drag 'em along with superior strength.

There's no muscling through the throw in such a case.

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