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Old 10-03-2002, 12:36 AM   #26
akiy
 
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That's great -- congratulations, John! Please keep us posted on when things all come together.

-- Jun

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Old 10-03-2002, 01:10 AM   #27
G DiPierro
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The problem with using pressure points in Aikido practice is that they are very annoying for your practice partners. For this reason, I prefer to practice without them. It makes practice much more comformtable. Most of us will never use Aikido techniques off of the mat, so practicing with a form of technique that causes unnecessary pain to our partners and yet offers no practical advantage seems to me to be foolish.
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Old 10-03-2002, 01:38 AM   #28
Chuck.Gordon
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Quote:
Bruce Baker wrote:
My goodness.

When I first approached the Aikiweb community with pressure points I was nearly lambasted, and put on a spit, replacing the pig in the pig roast.
You weren't lambasted for your content, Bruce, you were put "on the spit" for your approach, for being condescending, damn-near rude, etc etc etc. And what you put out, you got back.

Your approach, by the way, seems to have mellowed considerably. Thank you. You have some intersting things to say, no question. And as long as you are willing to discuss and not lecture, people will talk with you.

To the subject matter: Pressure points CAN work, but evidence doesn't support them working the way some folks would like for us to believe.

Bruce will point to the Dillman method and its adherents as supporting evidence. For myself, I've explored the concetps and practices of 'tuite' and some of the other methods of pressure point manipulation (including dipping into the Chinese disciplines) and my wife is a student of massage therapy, holding rank in reiki and having done studies with folks who are deeply invested in the PP (for health care) arena.

My conclusions after nearly 30 years on the mat (27, I think, catually), are that:

a: If you believe they work on YOU, they will.

b: if the humanbody is struck hard enough almost anywhere, you can achieve similar results.

c: relying on PP methodology in terms of self defense is at best, dangerous, at worst, suicidal.

d: PP methodology doesn't work on '10 percent', right off the bat (I suspect that figure is MUCH higher), add to that the folks who are desensitized through trauma (banging shins, forearms, hard labor, etc); the folks who are drinking, taking recreational chemicals or other reality-altering substances; the folks who are mentally off-kilter enough that the pain doesn't get throuhg or is mis-routed (through psychological or physical problems); and add to that the folks for whom pain is just a thing and doesn't really matter anyhow.

e: the 'ki' theory ... hell, we can't even define ki.

Chuck

PS: Hang in there, Bruce. Even _I_, yes, me, have found myself nodding at a few of your posts. Say what you have to say, but make sure you're respectful and folks will respond in kind. I've noted that in your discourse lately and hope to see it continue.

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Old 10-03-2002, 10:05 AM   #29
Bruce Baker
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Thanks Mr. Gordon, but being too respectfull takes all fun out of being a gorilla, doesn't it?

No, really ... unlike many you who have been inciteful, polite, and respectful, my disrepect should be taken with a grain of salt that you might reexamine your own position. Although much of it was a reflection of the physical pain of trying to get a handle on what needed to be fixed in my body.

(Which has been diagnosed as Meniere's, sleep aphnia, and fatty liver syndrome which is not a disease but doesn't allow enough blood to circulate through the body causing even more dizzyness and tiredness. So, as much as I owe many an apology for the terseness of my writing, please understand the underlying causes of words reflecting physical turmoil too. Thanks.)

Hopefully, you will learn to laugh at yourself for being insulted with the insight that offenseness needs the correction of different people who are offended to laugh and say," Please don't do that it isn't nice." A simple truth, but as we grow older the mask of suttleness hides our true feelings. In the same vein, we also learn to reflect on what other people think, and their point of view.

Just shake your head and laugh if something I say bothers you ... you would do that anyway if we were talking face to face?

About the pressure point thing ... If you take the time to scrutinize and detail the techniques we use in Aikido, there are many many variations of the lesser pain we cpi;d ise om practice. What we do that is validated by taking the slack out of techniques to the point of pain, using the pressure points which are essentially nerve endings transfering pain, and we find validation of Aikido by the demonstrations of the pressure point practitioners. They, the pressure point practitioners, mimic many of the movements we do in Aikido without even knowing or having practiced Aikido. It made my jaw drop to see demonstration after demonstration nearly doing Aikido while they thought they were doing pressure point karate? Go figure?

So, no matter if you think in the narrow box of physical manipulation which brings about pain to pressure points/ nerve endings, or you see the deeper meaning of learning meridians of the bodys functions so that you have a clue to what next level of training is above physical training, you are training to act and react to not only touch but alleviate the chance of pain or injury.

Just laugh with me if you disagres, but please do not take offense.

The only other thing that comes to mind is that perhaps in our passion to communicate we have said too much, too soon, too honestly.

Oh, Well. Time heals all wounds, and wounds all heels.

(It took how long time for people to figure out the world was round and a finite place where it went around the sun and not the other way around? It should take no less time to adapt to learning pressure points in Aikido.)
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Old 10-09-2002, 03:17 AM   #30
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As someone who makes a living thru "pressure points" (massage therapy and now chiropractic) I have to say... dunno.

Certainly, there are places on the body that are... annoying... to press on. Medial condyle of the humerus (funny bone pain). Sternum rub. Orbital ridges. Septum. Solar plexus. Lunar plexus. Yeah, they all hurt - some because they are sites of major nerve bundles, others due to dermatomal / myotomal referal etc.

Still, in all my time, I've yet to see / experience anyone becoming incapacitated from a light touch.

Sure, certain *weird* things can happen in craniosacral work, or myofascial, trager etc, but never witnessed a K.O.

My p.o.v = Pressure points hurt (sometimes a lot) and perhaps assist in the taking of balance (eg: a good upper cut to the jaw before taiotoshi works wonders ;-), but unconciousness... ? I'd love to see / experience it.
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Old 10-09-2002, 01:12 PM   #31
Bruce Baker
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Remember, three points on the same meridian.

The only problem with the three is that some nerves are activated by pressure, some rub, and some by strike.

I know Aikido will have to get into pressure points if it wants to find the full depth of its techniques.

I take my little hand full of snow and roll it down the hill. Will it grow?
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Old 10-09-2002, 01:17 PM   #32
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Quote:
Bruce Baker wrote:
I take my little hand full of snow and roll it down the hill. Will it grow?
Exposed to the light of day, alas, it will melt.

Until again,

Lynn

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 10-09-2002, 04:10 PM   #33
Chuck.Gordon
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Three on one

Quote:
Bruce Baker wrote:
Remember, three points on the same meridian.
Last time someone did this to me, I giggled. It tickled. Then I smacked him, because he left an opening a yard wide.

Sigh.

This is effective only inasmuch as

A: the receiver believes it will work.

B: The deliverer believes it will work.

C: Both parties mutually agree upon A and B.

Much better to learn the basics, practice the basics, repeat. ALL the secrets lie in the basics.

Sufficient force delivered to any part of the bory will result in the same conclusion.

Dim Mak is a legend, a myth. Pressure oint knockouts are similar.

Your truth is my question, my truth is your amusement.

Good on ya, bob_stra ...

Bruce, I hope you keep doing you research on Meniere's. I've got mine under control and ive a fairly normal life. I ain't much younger than you, bro'. It's something that CAN be dealt with.
Quote:
Bruce Baker wrote:
(It took how long time for people to figure out the world was round and a finite place where it went around the sun and not the other way around? It should take no less time to adapt to learning pressure points in Aikido.)
Not long. Folks knew the world was round way before Columbus had his little fling with fame and that this was not a terra-centric universe long before Galileo was castigated.

Aikido does nae NEED an infuson of tuite, it's fairly well situated all by itself.

There's a lot in aikido that could be better, and a lot that could be repaired, here and there, but by and large, it's far more functional and healthy that some of the pay-for-play stuff that's floating around.

The Okinawans had no great secrets. No more than the Japanese or Chinese. They had some interesting shit, as do all of the various disciplines.

It's not panacea. Most of the Okinawan martial mythology, is, alas, quite skewed, compared to some of the other arts.

And the stuff we get treated to in the US is much more so, I fear.

There are wonderful things hidden in the Japanese budo all by themselves, if you care to look, train, seek and learn -- rather than continuing to try to overlay another discpline. Empty your cup, brudda. Empty your cup.

Chuck

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Old 10-09-2002, 09:24 PM   #34
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It's obvious there is SOMETHING to pressure points, but I think that just like with chiropractic medicine, it's got a lot of BS in it too. I saw a woman in China on TV being operated on, with her skull literally being sawed open, and her only pain control was electro-accupuncture. That's either amazing power of suggestion, or significant medical technology. I disagree with the thinking behind one of those links someone posted earlier in this thread. They make the assumption that because there are no major organs associated with those points, that the points are not real. This is a mistake in thinking, as it is based on nerves, not on organs. Also, they take an aggressive "it's not true" stance right from the start. I have some doubts about their bias levels.

That said, I think most accupuncture is a joke. It may have some benefits, but it's only so useful. Chiropractors will tell you that their services can cure everything from allergies to poor eyesight, and you find a lot of that same kind of medicine show mentality in accupuncture. Pressure points are real, they do respond to stimulus, but that does not mean they can make you fall over and pass out from a light touch. The power of suggestion is amazingly powerful. Nowhere will you see this more strongly proven than in the world of hifi audio, where guys will pay 4500 dollars a meter for audio cable that is really not any better than stuff that costs 1 dollar a meter. Even if you take them in a shop and compare the two cables side by side, they'll usually choose the more expensive one as the better cable, because they pick up all the little suggestions, they see the fancier look of the pricey cable, they see the subtle expressions on the face of the salesperson. It's very easy to be manipulated like that if you're not more careful...

"Those who beat their swords into plowshares plow for those who keep their's" -Ben Franklin
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Old 10-09-2002, 09:26 PM   #35
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On a side note, in my study of kung-fu, I have practiced many moves where you dig in your fingers as you grasp an opponent, and you'd be amazed at how crippling that subtle movement can be. It really accompanies other actions very well, especially for the delivery of pain, but by itself, I've never seen it actually work.

"Those who beat their swords into plowshares plow for those who keep their's" -Ben Franklin
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Old 10-10-2002, 12:06 AM   #36
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There's a lot of talk about "crippling" and "full depth of techniques." When did aikido become a self-defense/jutsu art?

Phillip Johnson
Enso Aikido Dojo, Burnsville, MN
An Aikido Bukou Dojo
http://www.aikidobukou.com
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Old 10-10-2002, 01:43 AM   #37
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It always has been. At its core it is Budo. Remove the martial and you no longer have Aikido.
Quote:
Phillip Johnson (PhilJ) wrote:
There's a lot of talk about "crippling" and "full depth of techniques." When did aikido become a self-defense/jutsu art?

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 10-10-2002, 05:07 AM   #38
Abasan
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Dangus,

I think the cables are different if probably not justified in terms of pricing. I'm no electrical engineer, but depending on the material, size, length and all that, you get different resistance and leakages in the cables. The cheap ones gets interference and leakages a lot.

But yeah, maybe the difference is hard to percieve.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 10-10-2002, 08:52 AM   #39
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However much I like the idea of the master that knocks out an attacker with a light touch, I just can't get past the point where I think of contact sports (football, rugby, pubs on a Saturday night) and wonder why people are not fall down all over the ground as these points get hit by mistake.

Justin

Justin McCarthy
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Old 10-10-2002, 09:19 AM   #40
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I haven't encountered much in the way of pressure-point work in Aikido (though that's probably because I've only been training for a couple of months), but I've often found them to be very useful in my Jiu Jitsu training. Not the legendary 'he touched a certain point and I nearly passed out' type, but all those useful little nerve bundles which can be remarkably painful when pressed/squeezed/struck. We tend to use them in much the same way as we use atemi - to distract the uke from the wristlock/armlock/throw, or to loosen them up a bit if they're resisting. Most of the time it works very nicely - the person's instinctive reaction to flinch away from a sudden (though non-debilitating) source of sharp pain is great to give nage that little added edge in distraction or balance-taking. Having said that, it's certainly not a good idea to rely on these little tricks, as there are always some people on whom they just don't work. One of my training partners in Jiu Jitsu is one such - I can try all the points in his neck where the nerve bundles ought to be (including that nifty one in the hollow of the throat that works on almost anyone) and, if I'm lucky, he'll just stand there and shrug his shoulders at me.....
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Old 10-10-2002, 09:24 AM   #41
Bruce Baker
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Well, diggin fingers in at certain joints is the difficult way to create pain, but it does validate the Chin'na joint and bone grasps that create pain, and is another version of creating the same pain with joint locks or twists ... pressure points? Yep.

Chuck Gordon ... you really need, an I mean really need to go to a pressure point seminar where you can try to debunk what you will see.

The simple truth of our Aikido practice validates the difference in proper use of Aikido techniques that will cause pain and injury if your opponent or partner does not go along with movements.

For many, many years, Wally Jay jujitsu used many pain applications that we talk about as tender spots to break balance or concentration. Is it ignorance or merely laziness to not search for the understanding as to how and why these pains points work or don't work in what we call application of technique?

This is not a moot conversation of I believe or don't believe, these are proven scientific facts that can be duplicated again, and again,and again, and again infinitum.

I still have a couple of books for you Mr. Gordon, and permission to send you parts of my pressure point videos, unless you would prefer one of your own? There is nothing so satisfying as enlightening those who debunk the scientific fact by using myth, legend, and improper use of pressure points much as people mistake any one type of medicine can cure all ills?

This questioning of Acupuncture verses western medicine, well let's be practical in the application. Eastern acupuncture relieves pain with needles to points on bodys nervous system, and diet, which if you look deeper into diet, it applies the natural chemicals of food and herbs verses the western treatment of chemicals to relieve pain, and restrictions of foods not good for particular conditions of illness.

No, there are very simular methods between the two, and as time goes on, there is also an understanding that the each has it benefits in the wonderful world of medicine. So, please stop trying to give either treatment approval or disapproval, other wise selling shoe inserts to help your back, or treating symptoms of an illness while the cause is either germs or viral would kill billions of dollars of treatments around the world.

Use your common sense, get the facts, or at least the right reference book to find the answers, and just as we talk about pressure points being myths or legends, so too, we should have the proper instruction to apply these points in the same manner as we accredit scientific cures for our common ills.

I know I can't remember it all, but with a few general rules, practice, and a little study now and then, it will be as easy as remembering the basics of Aikido?

My tempering of writing also has to do with relief of pain that western medicine prescribed as increasing dosages of drugs ... funny how high doses of drugs under a doctors care can make you cantankerous?

I wish I had someone who was more knowledgeable about balancing western and eastern medicine with diet and exercise ... it might have save me from yanking the chain of those happy with the status quo of physical practice without searching deeper for meaning in aikido? Sorry about that.
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Old 10-10-2002, 10:13 AM   #42
Chuck.Gordon
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Quote:
Bruce Baker wrote:
Chuck Gordon ... you really need, an I mean really need to go to a pressure point seminar where you can try to debunk what you will see.

.

.

.

I still have a couple of books for you Mr. Gordon, and permission to send you parts of my pressure point videos, unless you would prefer one of your own?
Been there, done that Bruce. I explored that avenue back in the early 80s when folks were first 'discovering' it. Trained with folks from Oyata's lineage, way back then.

Found it wanting then, and still do. I DO find more than enough material within the Japanese construct to keep me busy without having to hare around after other disciplines to "complete" what I'm doing. It's all there, already.

I don't need the books (may already have read them), don't need the videos, either, but thank you kindly for the offer.

Glad you're feeling, better, too. Hope it continues.

Chuck

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Old 10-10-2002, 10:44 AM   #43
bob_stra
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Question

"Dangus McFinghin (Dangus)"]It's obvious there is SOMETHING to pressure points, but I think that just like with chiropractic medicine, it's got a lot of BS in it too. I saw a woman in China on TV being operated on, with her skull literally being sawed open, and her only pain control was electro-accupuncture.

Yeah, I read abt that one someplace (?quackwatch?). The official line is that the folks were anesthetized as well as "accupunctured"

Having said that, the prospect that accupuncture could cause anesthetiza is biologically plausible, but not by the standard TCM explanations AFAIK.

This is infact the crux of the argument. If phenomenon exits and a person devlops a faulty model for that phenomenon, then any thinking based on that model is likely to be faulty too.

(notice I didn't say useless)

That's either amazing power of suggestion, or significant medical technology.



Someone mentioned Cialdini. Everyone should read that book - *mere* power of suggestion can achieve phenomenal results.

PS: I always think of aikido and judo as "slight of body" - using the power of suggestion to lead folks into "traps"

PPS: Animals, when frigtened or under the right conditions, tend to undergo catalepsy. I remember this as an explanation as to why kittens could be lifted by the scruff of their neck and not complain. It also one of the reasons why animal models are considered poor for the research of accupuncture.

Could human experience catalepsy in a similar fashion. Dunno, maybe ;-)

[quote= They make the assumption that because there are no major organs associated with those points, that the points are not real.
[/QUOTE]

Not at all. The TCM model is... fanciful (notice I didn't say useless). There are better explanations to what happening than too much Yin energy at GB 25 etc.

[quote= Also, they take an aggressive "it's not true" stance right from the start. I have some doubts about their bias levels.[/QUOTE]

Don't confuse a cynic ("no, I'm right, you're all wrong. Go away - I'm not listening LA LA LA LA" )

with a skeptic ("hey, maybe you're right!! Let's find out")

Sometimes a cynic likes to pretend to be a skeptic, by giving all sorts of scientfic explanations. In the end the difference always stands out.

Question - is there sufficient, quality evidence to support pressure point knockouts? Is the explanation biologically and philosophically plausible ?

[quote=That said, I think most accupuncture is a joke.
[/QUOTE]

I don't know. Maybe.

[quote= Chiropractors will tell you that their services can cure everything from allergies to poor eyesight
[/QUOTE]


In defence of chiropractic, there is now evidence that spinal adjustments effect the immune system. I can dig out the references if needs been and provide a reasonable model as to why.

As for eyesight...

I don't know. Maybe ;-)

(The body's kind wierd, huh?)

[quote=
and you find a lot of that same kind of medicine show mentality in accupuncture.
[/QUOTE]


Yeah, historically one of the big problems of CAM / alt health. Don't *even* get me started...

[quote=but that does not mean they can make you fall over and pass out from a light touch.
[/QUOTE]

I don't know. Maybe ;-)

Listen, if anyone can tell me which accupuncture points to stimulate, I'd be happy to "knock myself out", for the sake of science and all :-)

(I spent 3 months learning shiatsu and have rudimentary knowledge of meridians et al)

At the end of the day, if PP knockout exist / work, It would be waaaay cool ;-) Another coat of paint on the wonder that is life. But frankly, I think there's plenty of way cool stuff in aikido already.

Final paraphrase mr sonnon - "To understand life change the prefix. Don't focus on the extraordinary and supernatural - rather, the superORDINARY and EXTRAnatural"

/steps off soapbox [quote]

Last edited by bob_stra : 10-10-2002 at 10:58 AM.
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Old 10-10-2002, 11:01 AM   #44
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Wow I rule using the /quote command. Hope that last message makes sense
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Old 10-14-2002, 01:59 PM   #45
Bruce Baker
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I don't blame anyone who has had the seventies and eighties experience of pressure points as having a sour taste, until the late 1990s I had yet to see and experience a demonstration of pressure points that were explained to the point they were scientifically applied to be used in any martial art. In fact, I do have a very high tolerance to pain where hair can be ripped off my skin and open wounds are ignored until my task is completed, but really, Chuck Gordon, get in touch with Leon Jay in the U.K.

If he is doing a seminar in your area, go. There are two very good teachers besides George Dillman here who travel abroad to Sweeden and Europe, Evan Pantazi, and Mark Kline. If they are giving a seminar in Europe, go.

Been there done that only works for things that do not work, or instructors who don't know how to make them work ... they teach you the pieces without the knowledge.

I find that the liver syndrome is the catalyst to sending my condition into outer space, but that is getting better too. Thanks for your concern, and I pray you never get as sick as I have been. It really makes any type of Aikido training ... not fun.

The best part of practice is having fun rocking and rolling, throwing and being thrown, isn't it?

Really, the new pressure point studies is absolutely in line with Traditional Chinese Medicine, Acupuncture, and reveals many of the old martial arts secrets.

Check it out.
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Old 10-15-2002, 03:18 AM   #46
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Quote:
Dangus,

I think the cables are different if probably not justified in terms of pricing. I'm no electrical engineer, but depending on the material, size, length and all that, you get different resistance and leakages in the cables. The cheap ones gets interference and leakages a lot.

But yeah, maybe the difference is hard to percieve
Difference or no difference is a debate that could flare up into a multipage argument. I build speakers for a living, and have never been able to record or witness an audible difference. As mentioned in this thread, the power of suggestion is extreme. There is no such thing as cable leakages, it's not like a water pipe. You do get some dispersion as heat, but on a copper cable of at least 16 gauge or thicker, it's so minimal as to make such a small impact on the sound that it's not even audible. A person cannot hear finer than a 0.3dB cut, and most people can't even hear that. I've never measured a cut that high between expensive and cheap cables. Properly conducted double blind tests show no difference. The power of suggestion is a mighty foe to overcome.
Quote:
In defence of chiropractic, there is now evidence that spinal adjustments effect the immune system. I can dig out the references if needs been and provide a reasonable model as to why
I do believe that the balance of the body has a huge effect on health as a whole, it effects your ability to breathe properly more than anything. I absolutely do not believe that it "causes" allergies. Agravates them? Probably, but causes them? Nonsense.

Chiropractic colleges indoctrinate these people to the belief that the back is the source of all good and evil in the universe, and that's silly.

That said, the chiropractor is one of the few people in life that I actually feel good about giving my money to. He does help things, but it's not going to change my life completely. If I were a hunchback maybe...

"Those who beat their swords into plowshares plow for those who keep their's" -Ben Franklin
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Old 10-16-2002, 01:21 PM   #47
aikidoc
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Michael Kelly's book on the Death Touch takes the mysticism out of the pressure points.

Not all chiropractors believe that the spine controls everything. There are some of us that are rational on the topic and realize the limitations of the profession.
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Old 10-16-2002, 04:37 PM   #48
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Of course there are, and I do indeed go to a chirpractor. Sorry to make it sound like they are ALL nuts. Not the case by any means.

"Those who beat their swords into plowshares plow for those who keep their's" -Ben Franklin
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