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Old 12-22-2006, 11:47 PM   #1
clockworkmechanicalman
Location: urbanna, va
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Freaky! the Tao te Ching/the Art of Peace

hello fellow members i'm a newbie here. have been interested in aikido for a while. that interest has now led me to contact a local club, named 5 rivers, and as i am currently waiting for a reply via email (my computer is slow and funky) i've been reading through O-Sensi's book 'the Art of Peace'. I couldn't help but feel like i've read this before previously incarnated as Lao Tzu's famous work 'the Tao teh Ching'. I do not mean that Morihei Ueshiba copied Lao Tzu's philosphy or stole or borrowed from it, just that I mean both works have remarkably similar ideas. has anybody else noticed this? if not let me leave you with this example:

The Art of Peace
by Morihei Ueshiba

ch.21 (first sentence)

As soon as you concern yourself with the "good" and "bad" of your fellows, you create an opening in your heart for maliciousness to enter.

Tao Te Ching
by LAO TSU

ch.2 (first and second sentences)

When the people of the world all know beauty as beauty, there arises the recognition of ugliness.
If goodness is taken as goodness, Wickedness enters as well.

there are more examples, but if you read my profile i do have ADHD and i've spotted something shiny
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Old 12-23-2006, 01:16 AM   #2
Erick Mead
 
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Re: the Tao te Ching/the Art of Peace

Quote:
Matt Brown wrote:
there are more examples, but if you read my profile i do have ADHD and i've spotted something shiny
OOH! Shiny! Where?!

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 12-23-2006, 01:59 AM   #3
clockworkmechanicalman
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Re: the Tao te Ching/the Art of Peace

you totally rule erick...mead is a yummy beverage
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Old 12-23-2006, 03:05 AM   #4
Jason Woolley
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Re: the Tao te Ching/the Art of Peace

Hi Matt,

Just read your post over in 'introductions' and enjoyed the read - quite a story!

Quote:
The Art of Peace
by Morihei Ueshiba

ch.21 (first sentence)

As soon as you concern yourself with the "good" and "bad" of your fellows, you create an opening in your heart for maliciousness to enter.
My understanding of this would be that it referred to the weakness created in your personality when you judge someone.

Quote:
Tao Te Ching
by LAO TSU

ch.2 (first and second sentences)

When the people of the world all know beauty as beauty, there arises the recognition of ugliness.
If goodness is taken as goodness, Wickedness enters as well.
In context of the Tao Te Ching it seems to me that this is more about the duality of the world and seeing all things 'as they are' rather than compared to other 'things' - although it amounts to the same thing.

These are mighty ideals - from the minute we start learning we are taught to compare and judge and the way our mind works is to relate one concept to another. The writings are inspirational and something to strive for, and in doing so an opportunity to reflect on ones mindset is presented.

Of course, this are just my personal thoughts - I just wanted to make my first real post

Good observation - it's about time I got those books down off the shelf, they seem to have gathered a little dust since I last looked at them!

Jason
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Old 12-23-2006, 06:13 AM   #5
statisticool
Join Date: Apr 2006
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Re: the Tao te Ching/the Art of Peace

Quote:
Matt Brown wrote:
hello fellow members i'm a newbie here. have been interested in aikido for a while. that interest has now led me to contact a local club, named 5 rivers, and as i am currently waiting for a reply via email (my computer is slow and funky) i've been reading through O-Sensi's book 'the Art of Peace'. I couldn't help but feel like i've read this before previously incarnated as Lao Tzu's famous work 'the Tao teh Ching'. I do not mean that Morihei Ueshiba copied Lao Tzu's philosphy or stole or borrowed from it, just that I mean both works have remarkably similar ideas.
There's not much philosophy that is new.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 12-23-2006, 08:39 AM   #6
Fred Little
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Re: the Tao te Ching/the Art of Peace

Quote:
Matt Brown wrote:
hello fellow members
Tao Te Ching
by LAO TSU

ch.2 (first and second sentences)

When the people of the world all know beauty as beauty, there arises the recognition of ugliness.
If goodness is taken as goodness, Wickedness enters as well.
Breaking News: Centuries of Scholarship WRONG!

Now it can be told, Tao Te Ching really Te Tao Ching! The Hardy Boys go to the Dunhuang Caverns to solve: The Mystery of the Misordered Manuscript.

http://www.amazon.com/Lao-Tzu-Transl.../dp/0345370996
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Old 12-23-2006, 10:16 AM   #7
SeiserL
 
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Re: the Tao te Ching/the Art of Peace

IMHO, truth is truth where ever you find it.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 12-23-2006, 05:02 PM   #8
clockworkmechanicalman
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Re: the Tao te Ching/the Art of Peace

guys thanks for all the responses. jason i'm glad you posted for the first time, i'm glad i helped.
the Tao te Ching was the first book to open my eyes to a bigger world. you could say it was a moment of clarity. the first page pretty much summed up how i've always felt about religion.

One

The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao.
The name that can be named is not the eternal name.
The nameless is the beginning of heaven and earth.
The named is the mother of ten thousand things.
Ever desireless, one can see the mystery.
Ever desiring, one can see the manifestations.
These two spring from the same source but differ in name;
this appears as darkness.
Darkness within darkness.
The gate to all mystery.

i've always felt that all religions fight over the same thing. things like the true name of god. i realise that tao does not mean god (something more, yet something less), but this is just an example, so bear with me. in this chapter it could be used for this purpose. like man is too ignorant to know god's name so we just name him/her...insert name here, in this case=tao.

both aikido and the art of peace seem to have similar ideas that the Tao has here is a few

Thirty

Whenever you advise a ruler in the way of Tao,
Counsel him not to use force to conquer the universe.
For this would only cause resistance.
Thorn bushes spring up wherever the army has passed.
Lean years follow in the wake of a great war.
Just do what needs to be done.
Never take advantage of power.

Achieve results,
But never glory in them.
Achieve results,
But never boast.
Achieve results,
But never be proud.
Achieve results,
Because this is the natural way.
Achieve results,
But not through violence.

Force is followed by loss of strength.
This is not the way of Tao.
That which goes against the Tao
comes to an early end.


Thirty-Three

Knowing others is wisdom;
Knowing the self is enlightenment.
Mastering others requires force;
Mastering the self needs strength.

He who knows he has enough is rich.
Perseverance is a sign of will power.
He who stays where he is endures.
To die but not to perish is to be eternally present.


Forty-One

The wise student hears of the Tao and practices it dilligently
The average student hears of the Tao and gives it thought now and again.
The foolish student hears of the Tao and laughs aloud.
If there were no laughter, the Tao would not be what it is.

Hence it is said:
The bright path seems dim;
Going forward seems like retreat;
The easy way seems hard;
The highest virtue seems empty;
Great purity seems sullied;
A wealth of Virtue seems inadequate;
The strength of Virtue seems frail;
Real Virtue seems unreal;
The perfect square has no corners;
Great talents ripen late;
The higest notes are hard to hear;
The greatest form has no shape.
The Tao is hidden and without name.
The Tao alone nourishes and brings everything to fulfillment.


Forty-Three

The softest thing in the universe
Overcomes the hardest thing in the universe.
That without substance can enter where there is no room.
Hence I know the value of non-action.

Teaching without words and work without doing
Are understood by very few.

ch 43 really screams aikido to me wu wei being the equal to no mind, not to mention the soft overcoming the hard

the art of peace is new to me. as in the sense that i've known about it, but never read it...until now.
i think that my taekwondo master, (indirectly) got me (as a child) to be really blinded to only see the korean martial arts, he spent time in the korean war, and lived there during the japanese occupation, i really felt for him as a child, but what else could a pre-teen boy do aside from dedicating loyalty to his ways. being an american and seeing what we've done (or haven't done), it's easy for me feel great sympathy and loyalty to these arts. but as time marched on i guess i became disillusioned with the McDojang scene. it's a harsh statement to make, especially considering all i know about my previous master, but yet true. in the Tao's last chapter is says "sincere words are not sweet. sweet words are not sincere." thus this blind loyalty to only one nation's martial arts has to end. i came across the Tao in a number of ways, one was my wife, a second her mother, another my previous boss at a pharmacy and lastly a tai ji sifu who helped me when i was on 'not so solid ground'. the love of Tao didn't come at face value (see tao te ching ch 41) as much as i heard people talk about i had to learn on my own. politely i would nod my head, and say"that's very interesting", and not mean it. but latter erin(my wife's mom) told to read the first page, just the first page and see what i thoought of it. well in this post you all know what i thought of it. and the simplest most looked over eastern symbol in western society came to my mind...the yin/yang. it's everywhere, on surfboards, t-shirts, doboks...the south korean flag. it all hit me like a kick in the nuts, the tao really is all around me, not just in the commercial form i just mentioned, that's just the cheesy way i learned that fact. and that if we spell it chi or qi or ki or prana we're talking about the same thing. though diversity is the spice of life, sometimes i can see us (martial artist, martial art enthusiasts, eastern philosophy majors, wannabes, gonnabes, and etc.) all of us,fighting, sometimes almost (not quite, but almost)like those numerous religion killing in the name of the same nameless thing the 5 neo confuscist commandments. i do apologize if anyone here loves the works kong fu tse (confucius)
but what the man says about women and 'lesser borns' is disgusting. sorry about my rant, there. you know i had a point and i still have the flu, and i'm typing while half awake so i'll leave you with this i look forward to aikido i am still studying the tao and i must recomend lao tzu to any aikidoka or wannabe aikidoka(such as myself), and i look forward to reading more of the art of peace . oh yeah
i almost forgot there are so many different ways to interperet the Tao te Ching so here is a site that translates it sentence by sentence in numerous different translations. http://wayist.org/ttc%20compared/indexchp.htm if this link doesn't work you might want to try to cut and paste it to the address box. aslo does anyone know of multipule texts of the art of peace?
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Old 12-25-2006, 10:23 PM   #9
clockworkmechanicalman
Location: urbanna, va
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Re: the Tao te Ching/the Art of Peace

looks like i killed this conversation. sorry guys really went off the deep end with that last post. and judging by the texts i choose to share and what i said, i'm not the best student of the tao. anyhoo. hope everybody had a merry christmas.
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Old 01-01-2007, 12:05 AM   #10
Mike Galante
Dojo: Aikido of North Jersey
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Re: the Tao te Ching/the Art of Peace

Hi to All,

Loved all your posts and what a GREAT thread!

I live for this stuff.

For me, I like to simplify. In Zen they talk about big mind and small mind.
Anything which sits back and judges, analyzes, is the small mind.
The big mind is the one which the Tao and O Sensei talked about.
Stufff, like in the Tao, which cannot really be defined, or adequately described with small mind's concepts.

In Astrology, the 9th house of God, (ruled by sign Sagitarius) religion, higher mind, philosophy is ruled by the planet of wisdom, Jupiter.
The opposite house, the 3rd, the mundane mind, (ruled by sign Gemini) is ruled by Mercury, the planet of intelligence. two opposite ends of the same axis. Where is the truth? Somewhere in the middle! What is that? - the Tao!
Just as an aside, Usheiba had the moon in Gemini (a mercurial sign) and the Sun in Sagitarius (a jupitarian sign).

What great philosophies have been handed down to us all. Nothing new under the sun.

All the Best, Happy and wise new year,

Mike Galante
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Old 01-16-2007, 07:35 AM   #11
mwible
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Re: the Tao te Ching/the Art of Peace

i agree with a coment someone else wrote saying "the truth is the truth" (or something like that) , so in my eyes they are both right, it really doesnt matter who said it first, it just matters wether or not you follow what they say.
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Old 01-16-2007, 08:59 AM   #12
dps
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Re: the Tao te Ching/the Art of Peace

Quote:
Matt Brown wrote:

Thirty

Whenever you advise a ruler in the way of Tao,
Counsel him not to use force to conquer the universe.
For this would only cause resistance.
Thorn bushes spring up wherever the army has passed.
Lean years follow in the wake of a great war.
Just do what needs to be done.
Never take advantage of power.

Achieve results,
But never glory in them.
Achieve results,
But never boast.
Achieve results,
But never be proud.
Achieve results,
Because this is the natural way.
Achieve results,
But not through violence.

Force is followed by loss of strength.
This is not the way of Tao.
That which goes against the Tao
comes to an early end.

Another interpretation that I like,


"Listen up:
If you want to be a leader
who's in touch with Tao,
never use violence
to achieve your goals.

Every act of violence backfires.
An army on the move
leaves a trail of tears,
and a military victory
always lies in ruins.

The Masters do what needs doing
and that's all they do.
Do what you have to do
without arrogance or pride.
Get the job done
and don't brag about it afterwards.
Do what you have to do,
not for your own benefit,
but because it needs to be done.
And don't do it the way
you think it should be done,
do it the way it needs to be done.

The mighty will always lose their power
and any connection
they ever had to Tao.
They will not last long;
if you're not right with Tao,
you might as well be dead.


31.

Weapons are terrible things.
If you want to get right with Tao,
reject weapons.

The Master,
knowing all things came from Tao,
recognizes what he has in common
with his enemies
and always tries to avoid conflict.

But when there is no other choice,
he uses force reluctantly.
He does so with great restraint,
and never celebrates a victory;
to do so would be to rejoice in killing.
A person who would rejoice in killing
has completely lost touch with Tao.

When you win a war,
you preside over a funeral.
Pay your respects to the dead."

The Tao Te Ching
a modern interpretation of Lao Tzu
perpetrated by Ron Hogan
copyright 2002, 2004
http://www.beatrice.com/TAO.txt

Thanks for the link,
David Skaggs

Last edited by dps : 01-16-2007 at 09:07 AM.
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Old 01-31-2007, 04:21 AM   #13
statisticool
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Re: the Tao te Ching/the Art of Peace

It is amazing all the connections. DOesn't mean that Ueshiba learned bagua from masters while dodging bullets in China, like some believe. It is just that these principles and sentiments are universal.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 01-31-2007, 05:44 AM   #14
SeiserL
 
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Re: the Tao te Ching/the Art of Peace

I am always impressed that mystic from any tradition tend to experience the same thing. Guess we all really are reading the same book and in the same reality. Both books are favorites of mine.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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