Training: Separate the Sexes?

Chris, I dislike when quotes are partially taken and retargeted in a different light.

If you dont like someone, dont train with them. Its just that simple. I am not a moral judge, So asking if I think its right or wrong is fruitless. I accept his choice, because that is how you blend. I believe in personal choice. If someone participated in that type of segregation, which is unlawful, thats their choice. It has no bearing to my person even if I were black,Jewish,female etc. I wouldnt waste my time worrying about it. It would be their problem with the world. I wouldnt make their problem my problem.



Life is to short to walk around with a chip on your shoulder. Read your Dobson, giving in to get your way. Accept and blend, move on. You can only control/center yourself and how you react. The rest falls into place.

We are all aikido students once we put a gi on and enter the Dojo. I have trained with a variety of ukes - heavier, lighter, shorter, taller, younger, older etc. some women but mostly men. What is the problem ? we are all different and with each uke my aikido is challenged for different reasons. For all you men who are concerned about hurting a 'girl' please remember that if she didnt want to be thrown or have techniques put on she wouldnt have joined in the first place !

As for the men only Dojo - Daniel what are you so scared of? PMS - get real. You have no respect.

William Oakes (SmilingNage) wrote: Chris, I dislike when quotes are partially taken and retargeted in a different light.

Hmm? I don't follow you - the only quote in the message before yours quoted the entire text of his message. If you're referring to the message before that one then I don't see how it's "retargeted". What I'm asking is a simple question - if it's alright to exclude people from a dojo on the basis of sex (as he quite clearly says it is) then why isn't it also alright to exclude people from a dojo on the basis of race or religion?

William Oakes (SmilingNage) wrote: If you dont like someone, dont train with them. Its just that simple. I am not a moral judge, So asking if I think its right or wrong is fruitless. I accept his choice, because that is how you blend. I believe in personal choice. If someone participated in that type of segregation, which is unlawful, thats their choice. It has no bearing to my person even if I were black,Jewish,female etc. I wouldnt waste my time worrying about it. It would be their problem with the world. I wouldnt make their problem my problem.

I have never, anywhere in this thread, said (or even implied, I think) that I didn't like anybody. I had a disagreement with a certain policy, that's all.

William Oakes (SmilingNage) wrote: Life is to short to walk around with a chip on your shoulder. Read your Dobson, giving in to get your way. Accept and blend, move on. You can only control/center yourself and how you react. The rest falls into place.

I'll have to mention that to Rosa Parks .

So you're saying Martin Luther King an Ghandi should have just accepted the situation and gotten on with their own lives?

Best,

Chris

In my dojo, we try to have everyone train with everyone else. That means that the tallest person ends up doing techniques with the shortest person and everything in between. This helps to make sure that you can effectively perform the technique on anyone, regardless of height and weight, etc. At that point, gender makes little difference. The only thing that segregates us on the mat is level of ability. (i.e. we don't practice upper-rank techniques on lower-rank aikidokas.)

IMHO, that is how it should be. This is how you learn the technique most fully and effectively. It's one thing to practice with the same person for years and get really good with them. It's another thing entirely to get to where you can work with anyone of any size and/or height and still work effectively.

Giancarlo DiPierro (G DiPierro) wrote: The one thing that I find most interesting about this whole thing has not yet been mentioned. The Shoshin dojo is a member of the ASU and hence the ASU and Saotome Sensei obviously must approve of this policy. I find it a little surpising that they do, but then I don't know Saotome Sensei that well. AFAIK, no dojos in the USAF discriminate on the basis of sex (or otherwise). Given what I know about the Federation, I don't think that it would happen there. If anyone can provide a counterexample please do.

As a student of Saotome Sensei, it would be my conjecture that Sensei neither endorses nor opposes Sensei Linden's admissions policy. Sensei has always been a big believer that by the time that you have paid your dues enough to start your own dojo and take the responsibilities that go with being Dojo Cho then it's pretty much your call how you choose to run the place. Exceptions would be illegal or immoral activity, consistent physical abuse of students, etc.

That said, I can't think of another ASU dojo that has such a policy. In Saotome Sensei's dojo in Washington, DC where I started back in the seventies there were five yudansha who had moved there to help him open the school. Three out of the five were female instructors. Both Saotome Sensei and Ikeda Sensei have a number of female senior students so I would say that the ASU as an organization is not at all exclusionary and that Linden Sensei's choices about how he runs his dojo are his own.

I support his decision to have a male only dojo, this is America after all. Or does freedom of association not apply to men anymore just everyone else?

Michael Neal wrote: I support his decision to have a male only dojo, this is America after all. Or does freedom of association not apply to men anymore just everyone else?

Would you say the same in the case of (for example) a white only dojo? If so, why, and if not, then why not?

Best,

Chris

The point is Chris is your making this into something its not. If you(general reference to anyone) dont like to train with someone, dont. And if someone doesnt want to train with you dont train with them. Pretty simple.

As to your reference to civil right legends, certainly Ghandi understood giving in to get your way. That was the crux of his passive resistance campaign. Use the british brutality against the british, accept,blend redirect.Dr King knew what he was up against, but he didnt let it effect him. He choose to become the circle the deflects the pointed attacks. Rosa Parks said all along she was just tired and thats why she sat in the fornt of the bus. She never intended to become a civil rights activist. She was quite embarrassed by all the publicity generated by it.

Back to the point,You cant make anyone do anything they dont want. If a teacher doesnt accept certains students, so be it. There are plenty of other teachers that will accept them. Its about choice, be thankful you have them. Is that so hard to understand? So stop stirring up the racist overtures. Leave that hive alone, it makes for ugly conversation amongst friends.

William Oakes (SmilingNage) wrote: The point is Chris is your making this into something its not. If you(general reference to anyone) dont like to train with someone, dont. And if someone doesnt want to train with you dont train with them. Pretty simple.

I disagree. The issue has nothing to do with whether or not I want to train there - in fact the likelyhood that I'll ever be in that area is fairly small in itself. It's not even really about that dojo in particular.

William Oakes (SmilingNage) wrote: As to your reference to civil right legends, certainly Ghandi understood giving in to get your way. That was the crux of his passive resistance campaign. Use the british brutality against the british, accept,blend redirect.Dr King knew what he was up against, but he didnt let it effect him. He choose to become the circle the deflects the pointed attacks. Rosa Parks said all along she was just tired and thats why she sat in the fornt of the bus. She never intended to become a civil rights activist. She was quite embarrassed by all the publicity generated by it.

I don't recall Ghandi "giving in" very much. He used non-violent methods of protest, but he certainly advocated strong and active resistence to injustice.

William Oakes (SmilingNage) wrote: Back to the point,You cant make anyone do anything they dont want. If a teacher doesnt accept certains students, so be it. There are plenty of other teachers that will accept them. Its about choice, be thankful you have them. Is that so hard to understand? So stop stirring up the racist overtures. Leave that hive alone, it makes for ugly conversation amongst friends.

Well, I'm still interested in how you would answer my question:

"Would you say the same in the case of (for example) a white only dojo? If so, why, and if not, then why not?"

Why should dicussion of discrimination be taboo among friends?

Best,

Chris

How about discriminating students on their ability to pay monthly dues?

Alfonso Adriasola (Alfonso) wrote: How about discriminating students on their ability to pay monthly dues?

Some might see that as discrimination. I don't, because anyone - white, black, purple, male or female has the theoretical potential to raise the money for dues. Not so when discrimination is based upon inherited biological traits.

OTOH, I personally wouldn't turn someone away who wanted to train because they didn't have the money.

Best,

Chris

You dont understand the principle of "giving in" Giving in doesnt mean submitting in this case. It means accepting what is coming or about to happen,recognition, then moving in accordance.

And I have answered your question, re read earlier posts. Its all about personal choice and thats about all I have to say.

My two pence worth !

Daniel in my opinion is not running an 'Aikido Club' He has his own private fight club where he only wants certain physical and mental types to participate. If he wants to do this then fine, no problem, their choice. However, this is not in the spirit of what Aikido is about - where the smallest, lightest people can be very affective (mmmm wasnt O'Sensei a little on the short side!!!)

Also my Sensei is well over 50, probably hasn't got a masters (past the age for Daniels Club) and believe me he could seriously kick his ass!! So not Aikido Daniel - just a boys club.

My husband is an Aikido blackbelt. He has recently told me that his dojo does not allow women in.

I was surprised by this. When he first started, years ago there were a couple of women participanting in his dojo. He came home many nights reporting how he had learned much from these women. I had noticed that there have not been women involved with his dojo for the last several years, but I did not

realize that his Sensei might have actually turned women away from becoming members.

Now my husband tells me that his Sensei has put the word out that he finds this policy to be to his student's advantage. I know that my husband benefits from his Aikido training in many, many ways.

He is completely dedicated to his dojo.

I am now on the record, crowing that martial arts, this Aikido dojo and every seminar he has ever gone to has been instrumental in making my husband into the awesome father, husband, lover, friend,

son, brother and person that I always knew he could be. The comaraderie, the physical workout ,the spirituality that being an Aikidokan is all about unlocked all that was held back in him before.

And working out with women is part of his experience.

He has told me that women are not hung up about physical strenth, so they never try to overpower the technique being practiced. Women are generally more self aware, so they know their center and use it during their practice. He says they are sneaky, and he can't predict their moves easily. He likes working out with women because it is fun and different than with men. At the seminars, he has pointed out to me different women that he thinks are amazing Aikidokans.

He and I have discussed this at length since he read what his Sensei wrote. He tells me that he understands how there could be discomfort and maybe even dissent on the mat when both sexes are training together. Up close and inside that personal space is very uncomfortable for some people,and worse with someone of the opposite sex. Aikido is a contact martial art, much more than the Karate that his brother and our children train in. We also talked about the other way. What if there was a particularly attractive woman coming out to train? Would all the men line up to work out with her? Maybe. That is alot of game playing that isn't really what martial arts is all about. He does admit that is easier that it is all guys. He likes not having to watch out during his regular training at his dojo.

At the seminars though, he's on his best behavior anyway.

I have found that his dojo, his Sensei, all the people involved there make for a supportive and positive place to spend time. There he can truly be himself. They have seen him through deaths in the family,job loss and prosperity alike. I am proud of him.

Liz Evans wrote: My two pence worth ! Daniel in my opinion is not running an 'Aikido Club' He has his own private fight club where he only wants certain physical and mental types to participate. If he wants to do this then fine, no problem, their choice. However, this is not in the spirit of what Aikido is about - where the smallest, lightest people can be very affective (mmmm wasnt O'Sensei a little on the short side!!!) Also my Sensei is well over 50, probably hasn't got a masters (past the age for Daniels Club) and believe me he could seriously kick his ass!! So not Aikido Daniel - just a boys club.

I'm not at all trying to attack you Liz, so please try not to take offense.

That could be the most ignorant thing I have ever read in my entire life. Your opinion is musguided, sweeping and just plain wrong.

/That is all

Christopher Li (Chris Li) wrote: Would you say the same in the case of (for example) a white only dojo? If so, why, and if not, then why not? Best, Chris

If you want an all white dojo you have every right to do so even though I personally would find it repugnant.

Michael Neal wrote: If you want an all white dojo you have every right to do so even though I personally would find it repugnant.

And that's an important point - there are really two seperate but related issues here:

1) Whether or not a dojo that excludes people on the basis of sex, race, or religion is ethically acceptable.

and

2) Whether or not such a dojo ought to be allowed to exist.

Contrary to what has been implied, I believe that people (in general) ought to be able to run their dojo as they please. In fact, I said that very thing in the early days of the thread. My answer to question number 2 would be "yes".

I don't think, however, that presents any conflict with a "no" answer for question number 1.

For people posting about how great the dojo that started this discussion is - I'm sure they're right and that it's a great place to train. That has nothing to do with whether or not such a policy is ethical or not. If you encountered a club (of any kind) that excluded non-whites and Jews as a matter of policy would you defend it by talking about how enriching it was for the members?

Best,

Chris

Christopher Li (Chris Li) wrote: For people posting about how great the dojo that started this discussion is - I'm sure they're right and that it's a great place to train. That has nothing to do with whether or not such a policy is ethical or not. If you encountered a club (of any kind) that excluded non-whites and Jews as a matter of policy would you defend it by talking about how enriching it was for the members?

I find it interesting to note that no one is trying to argue the reverse, that it would be equally unethical to have a dojo where whites or men were not welcome.

I'd be interested in hearing your comments on that situation, Chris. There are plenty of "women's self defense" clubs out there where men are not welcome. That are also martial arts clubs that cater specifically to blacks or other ethinc groups. Is this ethically superior to an all male dojo?

Dave Miller wrote: I find it interesting to note that no one is trying to argue the reverse, that it would be equally unethical to have a dojo where whites or men were not welcome. I'd be interested in hearing your comments on that situation, Chris. There are plenty of "women's self defense" clubs out there where men are not welcome. That are also martial arts clubs that cater specifically to blacks or other ethinc groups. Is this ethically superior to an all male dojo?

Basically speaking, I would think that those types of dojo are just as unethical. It sometimes has puzzled me why (for example) all female groups are often seen as "empowering" while all male groups are seen as "exclusive". I don't see the difference. The one exception for me would be something on the order of a group for special reasons - for example, an all female class for battered women.

Best,

Chris

Christopher Li (Chris Li) wrote: Basically speaking, I would think that those types of dojo are just as unethical. It sometimes has puzzled me why (for example) all female groups are often seen as "empowering" while all male groups are seen as "exclusive". I don't see the difference. The one exception for me would be something on the order of a group for special reasons - for example, an all female class for battered women. Best, Chris

Basically, I agree with you. However, there is still such a thing as "freedom of association" that says, for example, that Augusta National Golf Club does not have to admit female members. This is a private club and they can form their own membership requirements. This can be applied to any affinity group that wants to form an exclusive club and celebrate their distinctiveness.

To take this one step further, suppose someone said, "It's really stupid that Aikido people won't let Karate people work out with them." and wanted to force us to take in Karatekas. I doubt that you'd be in favor of such a move, especially if the Karatekas didn't want to study Aikido. However, this is exactly how silly some of the politics of association is nowadays. Because I want to have the freedom to hang out with whom I choose, I am very careful about wanting to mandate that for other people.

Dave Miller wrote: Basically, I agree with you. However, there is still such a thing as "freedom of association" that says, for example, that Augusta National Golf Club does not have to admit female members. This is a private club and they can form their own membership requirements. This can be applied to any affinity group that wants to form an exclusive club and celebrate their distinctiveness.

Exactly. As I said above here there are two seperate but related issues that really ought not to get confused. The issue of whether or not something is ethical, and the issue of whether or not something ought to be allowed.

Obviously, people have the right to associate freely. However, that has nothing to do with the issue of whether or not their behavior is ethical.

Best,

Chris

Yah but who you allow to join your club isn't necessarily an ethical issue. Ethics is a pretty narrowly defined notion. If anything, this is more of a civil rights issue rather than an ethical issue.

Dave Miller wrote: Yah but who you allow to join your club isn't necessarily an ethical issue. Ethics is a pretty narrowly defined notion. If anything, this is more of a civil rights issue rather than an ethical issue.

I would say that ethics is the heart of civil rights...

Best,

Chris

Luke,

So what part of my comment didnt you agree with? Do you not belong to a private club where tough men get to fight? (hunt and do pottery)

Merely pointing out that (as I said 'in my opinion') Aikido is for everyone and Dojo's that teach in the true spirit of Aikido welcome all. (i dont think you can dispute yours is not open to all) You could try another Dojo once in a while - you can learn a lot from training with different physical types. I'm sure you will be more than welcome.

Don't worry, I'm not offended - believe me I'm not the ignorant one in this debate.

Liz Evans wrote: Luke, So what part of my comment didnt you agree with?

Liz, this is what I did not agree with. Remember what ignorant is defined as: uninformed.

Describing what we do as a fight club, assuming that we are not in fact training aikido, or a martial art in fact.

You assumed that all of us are extremely large individuals when one of our active members is 105 pounds. He's just a small man, but the strongest by size no doubt.

Then there was the kick his ass statement. Tell me you didn't stoop to the my Sensei can beat up your Sensei level, did you?

That's about it.