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Old 10-07-2002, 09:28 AM   #176
Greg Jennings
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I'm happy to have someone to train with.

Best Regards,

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Old 10-07-2002, 10:14 AM   #177
Erik
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Quote:
Daniel Linden (DGLinden) wrote:
You are making the mistake of projecting your idea of what ASU is upon the reality of what it actually is.
At the risk of repeating earlier posts.

That is why I made the post. My point was that most people will make this assumption. Being a part of an organization implies something more to most people than what most Aikido organizations are. By virtue of a dojo's acceptance into the organization it implies a certain organizational standard and ASU does have organizational standards. Unless it's different in other parts of the country, only Saotome and Ikeda can promote dan ranks, for instance. There are requirements in order to test. I've heard that there have been discussions of issuing teaching certifications as well. These are standards and their existance makes the other seem logical as well.

For the record, I like the ASU and have both direct and indirect ties to a number of the local dojos who have joined ASU. It's just that organizations in our world seem to straddle a line and I thought this would be a good place to bring it up.
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Old 10-07-2002, 12:35 PM   #178
Guest5678
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Perhaps a better analogy here. Think of the federal government and it's relationship with the individual state governments.....

In the ASU;

The federal government would be represented by Saotome sensei & co.(i.e... the ASU) While the membership dojos represent the individual state governments that make up the federal government…..

Hope that makes sense....

-Mongo
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Old 10-07-2002, 01:06 PM   #179
G DiPierro
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Quote:
Daniel Pokorny (Mongo) wrote:
The federal government would be represented by Saotome sensei & co.(i.e... the ASU) While the membership dojos represent the individual state governments that make up the federal government….
So then you're saying that the ASU is a federation, like, well, the Federation. OK, fine. What does it mean to say that a federation does not discriminate? What does it mean to say that it has certain requirements for promotion? What does it mean to say that it promotes the teaching of Aikido? Does it mean that the individual dojos can do anything they want on the basis of some sort of "states' rights" argument? If Dennis Hooker decided tommorow to stop teaching Aikido, replace it with TKD, and starting promoting people based solely on the number of bricks they can break with their heads, could he do that and remain in the ASU? After all, it's his dojo, so he can do what he wants, right?

Obviously, a federation has some right to expect certain behaviors from its members, and in this case the ASU has stated that one of those behaviors is not discriminating on the basis of sex. They could change the policy to say something like "The ASU recommends that its member dojos not discriminate on the basis of sex," and then it would be clear that dojos can do what they want in this regard. But what it says right now is that "The ASU does not discriminate on the basis of sex," and that is obviously not consistent with reality in this case.
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Old 10-08-2002, 07:23 AM   #180
Guest5678
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Quote:
Giancarlo DiPierro (G DiPierro) wrote:
So then you're saying that the ASU is a federation, like, well, the Federation. OK, fine. What does it mean to say that a federation does not discriminate? What does it mean to say that it has certain requirements for promotion? What does it mean to say that it promotes the teaching of Aikido? Does it mean that the individual dojos can do anything they want on the basis of some sort of "states' rights" argument? If Dennis Hooker decided tommorow to stop teaching Aikido, replace it with TKD, and starting promoting people based solely on the number of bricks they can break with their heads, could he do that and remain in the ASU? After all, it's his dojo, so he can do what he wants, right?

Obviously, a federation has some right to expect certain behaviors from its members, and in this case the ASU has stated that one of those behaviors is not discriminating on the basis of sex. They could change the policy to say something like "The ASU recommends that its member dojos not discriminate on the basis of sex," and then it would be clear that dojos can do what they want in this regard. But what it says right now is that "The ASU does not discriminate on the basis of sex," and that is obviously not consistent with reality in this case.
Giancarlo,

Well, so much for analogies. jeeez! What I did NOT say however, is that the ASU is a federation.

I was hoping that this analogy would help people better understand the relationship between the ASU and the various dojos. Appearntly not.... I certainly cannot answer all of your questions regrding ASU policies, I will however, suggest that if you're really that curious, you contact the ASU directly and ask them yourself...

While I certainly cannot speak for Hooker sensei, his sensei, or the ASU organization, I can pass on what I've experienced as an ASU member over the past 6-7 years.

It appears to me that Saotome sensei has a great deal of TRUST in his students. As it should be in my book. It also appears that he has a huge amount of common sense and insight regarding human behavior. I think he realizes that all people (his students) are different and the individual dojos they operate will have a tendency to reflect those differences. This is certainly not uncommon.

I have found that although many dojos may belong to the same organization, each will have a unique feel to it. A unique "atmosphere" if you will. Students of the same instructor tend to emphasize different aspects of the art they are taught. This has been repeated throughout history and can be seen in many different arts as well. Look at the history of Japanese sword as an example. Aikido is no different....

Also, on a side note, Hooker sensei DOES like to throw in a little karate here and there, but it's Uechi-ryu (sp?), not TKD...

-Mongo
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Old 10-08-2002, 07:34 AM   #181
DGLinden
Dojo: Shoshin Aikido Dojos
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I guess it is possible that you are using this forum to inflame, whats the term? Whatever.

There are very specific rules that ASU instructors use for conduct and promotions. Once you have been accepted as a student of a dojo you are required to follow them. ASU does not accept students, local dojos do. Once accepted by the dojo, ASU does not descriminate. Dennis Hooker, Shihan would not be allowed to submit a promotion that was not in accordance with Saotome Shihan's requirements. So why not drop this? You are beating a horse not only dead, but decomposed.

As far as outside dojos being accepted in ASU, Saotome Shihan has accepted a few, but for the most part all dojo senseis are his direct students. He has a personal relationship with each one or one of his senior teachers will take responsibility for a new school for an extended probation. This might happen if a Teacher's student wanted to open a school. Our school in Germany is a good example. I am responsible to Sensei for this body. I believe that Shobu in Boston has several locations. I know that Hooker Shihan has a number of schools he oversees.

And before you ask, Shoshin Rodgau does accept women and children.

Daniel G. Linden
Author of ON MASTERING AIKIDO (c) 2004
Founder Shoshin Aikido Dojos
www.shoshindojo.com
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Old 10-08-2002, 07:42 AM   #182
G DiPierro
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Quote:
Daniel Pokorny (Mongo) wrote:
What I did NOT say however, is that the ASU is a federation.
You made an analogy comparing the structure of the ASU to that of the federal government. The structure of the federal goverment is a federation. Hence the term, "federal government."

Last edited by G DiPierro : 10-08-2002 at 07:57 AM.
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Old 10-08-2002, 07:56 AM   #183
G DiPierro
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Quote:
Daniel Linden (DGLinden) wrote:
So why not drop this? You are beating a horse not only dead, but decomposed.
Several people have posted saying that it looks to them like your policy is not in accord with the ASU policy, so I don't think it's fair to say that we are all "beating a horse [that is] not only dead, but decomposed." Perhaps you see it that way, but from what I have read, most people in this thread don't.

Look, I don't care what you do in your dojo. As far as I'm concerned that's between you and your teacher. But I just don't buy your argument that the ASU policy stated in this thread permits individual dojos to discriminate. I'm not questioning your policy, and I'm not questioning the fact that the de facto ASU policy seems to be that you can do whatever you want regardless of the written ASU policy, but I am questioning your claim that you are actually following that written policy. And I don't think that I am the only one who is not at all convinced by that claim.
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Old 10-08-2002, 08:32 AM   #184
G DiPierro
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Quote:
Daniel Linden (DGLinden) wrote:
Once accepted by the dojo, ASU does not descriminate.
To try to get this discussion back to what I see as the main issue, your claim that the written policy does not mean that dojos themselves cannot discriminate, let's take a look at your statement above. What does it mean to say that the ASU does not discriminate? You are claiming that it means that the ASU does not discriminate against any students who have already been accepted by one of its member dojos. But how could it? Could you imagine a situation where the ASU refused to accept a student who had already been accepted as student at an ASU dojo? Has the ASU ever rejected such a student? If you can provide an example, please do, but it's hard to imagine how this would be possible. The ASU, almost by definition, would not reject, for any reason, a student who was already a member in good standing of an ASU dojo. So it should be easy to see how your statement that "once accepted by the dojo, the ASU does not discriminate" is meaningless. Of course the ASU will accept all students who are accepted to its member dojos, they don't need a non-discrimination policy for that.

Daniel, the only sensible reading of that policy is the one that I and others consider to be the obvious one, that ASU member dojos do not discriminate on the basis of sex. You can try to deny this with as much double-talk as you like but I think that it is clear to almost everyone here what this policy means.
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Old 10-08-2002, 08:35 AM   #185
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Quote:
Giancarlo DiPierro (G DiPierro) wrote:
You made an analogy comparing the structure of the ASU to that of the federal government. The structure of the federal goverment is a federation. Hence the term, "federal government."
Giancarlo,

This is a great example of the differences I spoke to in the previous post.

Your focus is on a comparison of the ASU to the federal government, while I was hoping you would focus on the relationship between the two governing bodies....

Oh well.. this is why I don't teach HA!

-Mongo
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Old 10-08-2002, 09:24 AM   #186
MattRice
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just to clear up, it is incorrect that only Saotome Shihan and Ikeda Shihan can issue dan ranks
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Old 10-08-2002, 10:33 AM   #187
aikigreg
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Look at it this way. If someone brings their 90 year old mother with Alzheimer's disease to your dojo and tell you you are going to train them, would you?

Heck no you wouldn't, but it's still age discrimination. If you ran the dojo, you'd want to do it your way too, believe me. Nothing wrong with the practice.

And if they relented and allowed someone in they really didn't want, what do you think the training atmosphere would be? That, to me, is a tragedy much worse than just the exclusion at the beginning.
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Old 10-09-2002, 03:18 PM   #188
Marnen
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Quote:
Greg Gross (aikigreg) wrote:
Look at it this way. If someone brings their 90 year old mother with Alzheimer's disease to your dojo and tell you you are going to train them, would you?

Heck no you wouldn't, but it's still age discrimination.
No, it's not necessarily age discrimination. There are all sorts of legitimate reasons for believing that someone like that would not be an effective student -- the Alzheimer's disease will make it hard for her to remember what she's taught, for one.

Age discrimination means not accepting someone solely on the basis of age. If she was turned down only because she was 90, where a 50-year-old in the same physical and mental condition would have been accepted, that's age discrimination. There are simply too many confounding variables in your example to make it a clear-cut case of anything.
Quote:
If you ran the dojo, you'd want to do it your way too, believe me. Nothing wrong with the practice.
I too believe in the right of an instructor to run eir dojo the way ey wants to, but for reasons outlined in my earlier post, I think it's good to have as diverse a student body as possible.
Quote:
And if they relented and allowed someone in they really didn't want, what do you think the training atmosphere would be? That, to me, is a tragedy much worse than just the exclusion at the beginning.
Maybe...or maybe they'd learn something valuable from having someone "different" in the dojo.
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Old 10-15-2002, 05:47 PM   #189
Erik
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Quote:
Daniel Linden (DGLinden) wrote:
I guess it is possible that you are using this forum to inflame, whats the term? Whatever.
Not sure if this is directed at me but it wasn't my intention on this one.

Anyways, I have a better understanding of ASU and how it works and for that I thank you.
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Old 10-15-2002, 05:56 PM   #190
Erik
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Quote:
Matt Rice (MattRice) wrote:
just to clear up, it is incorrect that only Saotome Shihan and Ikeda Shihan can issue dan ranks
Thanks for clarifying that. My apologies for the confusion. I made an assumption from afar and we know what sometimes happens then.
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Old 05-03-2003, 04:09 PM   #191
mle
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Sexism is Bogus

Quote:
*** *** (Guest5678) wrote:
Oh well.. this is why I don't teach HA!

-Mongo
Politics don't prove much except who can "power play" whom. Blech.

After doing research, interviews, and working on several articles and papers on the subject, the best quote I received was this, from an Army staff sergeant boxing coach (man with a 14 year old daughter who boxes and competes):

"If you're not willing to teach women, you shouldn't teach anyone."

I still believe that if Dan doesn't feel suited to teach women, he shouldn't; however, he shouldn't blame the women.

Sorry I missed you in Germany, we had a "mission conflict" and Chuck couldn't get the time off. Believe me I complained, but the Army don't care.

We'll try hard for next time.

If all goes well the paper will be presented and published on EJMAS.COM, if not, I'll put it on the web myself and post the link here.

mle

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Old 05-04-2003, 06:10 PM   #192
Mallory Wikoff
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Quote:
I not only seperate the sexes, I keep women out of the dojo altogether.

I may have the only dojo in the country that does not accept any women students.

I could go on for hours as to why, but the real reason is that it pleases me. As I turn away anywhere from 5 to 10 potential students a week (the dojo has a waiting list) I seem to be doing something right.

We have no issues with dating, male dominance, PMS, jealosy, locker rooms or toilets. Back when I allowed women to train I NEVER let husbands and wives or couples train together. Over 30 years I've seen too many personal problems brought to the mat. I should mention that my lovely wife is a Shodan. I have no problem women training everywhere else, I think its just fine.
Oh brother, get over it!

If you havent figured it out already, i'm a girl, but I actualy prefer working w/ men b/c first of all, most likely on the street no lady is going to atack me, and second of all, It's better for me to work w/ men b/c it's more challenging.
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Old 05-05-2003, 06:00 AM   #193
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: Training: Seperate sexes?

You wrote "I train with men because it is more challenging."

While I think Mr. Linden is certainly missing something because he does not train with women I wonder when I hear a statement like this. It seems like some women are harder on other women than men are.

I was taught that every uke had value and would teach me something about myself. Aikido is about give and take and technique is a vehicle to deeper learning. By limiting oursleves with judgements about who we work with, we can also limit our natural progression to self mastery.

Both men and women at our dojo can offer "Challenges" and we practice our Aikido in joyful and respectful manner.

Mary
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Old 05-05-2003, 07:59 AM   #194
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I find this all so amusing, that people would take offense to an all male dojo. What is missing is acceptance and respect for personal freedom and expression. If the man doesnt want sexual tension in his dojo, then he is nipping the problem in the bud by not accepting women. Mr Linden is providing an atmosphere where his teachings are more receptive to the students he wishes to teach to. It must work for some, otherwise he wouldnt have a waiting list to join. In your own dojo, I am sure there are people you dislike and like to train with. Then its not a far stretch to say that you avoid training with the people you dont care to train with. Maybe they throw to hard for you, bad hygiene, or just a bad personality, but it comes down to your choice, your personal choice. Its not a matter of right or wrong, training with or not training with the opposite sex, but rather one of personal choice.



To accept or receive is a fundamental element in Aikido. Blending occurs when acceptance has taken place. Accept where Mr Linden is coming from, then you can either blend or simply let it go. If you dont accept or let it go, then you see the results in this thread, bitter posts and demonization of his charachter. Obviously when you hang your beliefs out on line to be viewed publicly, there are people who will disagree. But all the neo nazi, kkk talk is complete garbage and nonsense. Shame on anyone who would so carelessly throw such unfounded allegations around. Take some responsibility for your words and not hide behind your cowardly keyboard. What have we learned from Aikido if you cant accept/receive, be it an attack, or a difference of opinion?

Now back to the question at hand, I respect and support both sides of the arguement. I sum it up to, its your training do what you want with it. Its your Do/way, find out what it means to you.

From a personal stand point, I found that mixed training has provided me with alot of benefit. It offers a more variety and degree to the situation. The more mixed the "diet" the better it is for me. But I like alot of varied "food" at my table, some people dont like variety and prefer to stick with what they know. Hey thats alright by me, more for me to eat and digest.

Now I am starving.

LoL

Dont make me, make you, grab my wrist.
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Old 05-05-2003, 08:03 AM   #195
Peter Klein
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i really would like to train only with the same sex cause i feel kinda securer throwing a man than a woman.
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Old 05-05-2003, 08:19 AM   #196
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Nothing wrong with that Pete,atleast your honest. In your experience, you may not have come across women that train as hard as you do. But there are some women who can apply technique or throw. Best keep on your toes

Dont make me, make you, grab my wrist.
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Old 05-05-2003, 12:20 PM   #197
Chris Li
 
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Quote:
William Oakes (SmilingNage) wrote:
I find this all so amusing, that people would take offense to an all male dojo. What is missing is acceptance and respect for personal freedom and expression.
So you would accept and respect the personal freedom of someone who, for example, had a dojo that excluded African Americans and Jews?

Best,

Chris

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Old 05-05-2003, 02:41 PM   #198
Peter Klein
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I would. even though I hate racism. But rassist are to stupid to do aikido so this case would never occour
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Old 05-05-2003, 03:00 PM   #199
LukeTBrown
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[quote="Christopher Li (Chris Li)"]So you would accept and respect the personal freedom of someone who, for example, had a dojo that excluded African Americans and Jews?

I would like to direct you to page 4 of this thread. Look for my previous post. It, in some way, should answer your question.
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Old 05-05-2003, 04:56 PM   #200
Chris Li
 
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[quote="Luke Brown (LukeTBrown)"]
Quote:
Christopher Li (Chris Li) wrote:
So you would accept and respect the personal freedom of someone who, for example, had a dojo that excluded African Americans and Jews?

I would like to direct you to page 4 of this thread. Look for my previous post. It, in some way, should answer your question.
Yes, I remember the post, and I'm not accusing Dan of excluding blacks or Jews.

What I am asking is why it is acceptable to exclude women when it is unacceptable (I assume, to most people) to exclude (for example) blacks and Jews? Are you saying that it would be okay to exclude blacks and Jews as long as you don't hate them?

Best,

Chris

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