Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 09-21-2002, 08:33 AM   #76
DGLinden
Dojo: Shoshin Aikido Dojos
Location: Orlando
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 159
Offline
One last thing...

I also open the doors to anyone who has served our country in police, fire, or the armed services. As well as anyone who has previous Aikido training under a recognized Sensei.

Yes, before you ask, recognized by me.

Daniel G. Linden
Author of ON MASTERING AIKIDO (c) 2004
Founder Shoshin Aikido Dojos
www.shoshindojo.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2002, 08:35 AM   #77
DGLinden
Dojo: Shoshin Aikido Dojos
Location: Orlando
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 159
Offline
Anyone who is a man.

Daniel G. Linden
Author of ON MASTERING AIKIDO (c) 2004
Founder Shoshin Aikido Dojos
www.shoshindojo.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2002, 09:03 AM   #78
nic an fhilidh
Location: GA, USA
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 11
Offline
Quote:
Daniel Linden (DGLinden) wrote:
Just don't ever make the mistake of calling me a racist or bigot or such to my face. But then you wouldn't would you?
Actually, if you stood in front of me and said "Women whine constantly", I probably would respond by pointing out your bigotry. Your reaction from there is your own business.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2002, 01:40 PM   #79
suebailey
Location: sunderland
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 52
England
Offline
Smile

lo all

personnally i find trainning with men an a advantage as most of them r physically staonger and make me think and wrk harder therefore i learn more and geyt more out of my lesson.

i do however understand that yes sum women/men do feel uncomfortable about been grabed by the opesite sex very off putting/embarrassing during a session.

i think it should be put to the class at the beginning of each session so that it can be decided by every one.

i dont mind either way.

till nxt time sue

with out the heart there can be no understanding between body and mind and if u have never linked ur self to true emptiness you will never comprehend the full dimension of aikido.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2002, 01:52 PM   #80
Wayne[RATS]
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 4
Offline
i dn't really know alot about aikido ... BUTT!

as i can see it's about self defence,

if a bloke built like a brick **** house came up to a lass in the street and started pushing her about,

if in an instructional session she was able to handle men built bigger than herself, she would be able to deal with this situation ...

certainly there should be an option for female's and males to be able to train seperatly but i personally think it defeats the object :/
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2002, 03:15 PM   #81
LukeTBrown
Dojo: Shoshin Aikido Dojo
Location: Orlando, Florida
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 13
Offline
I want to keep this as short as possible and still make a clear and concise point concerning this entertaining thread.

Let me begin by announcing that I am a proud member of The Shoshin Aikido Dojo in Orlando, Florida and study diligently under Linden Sensei. I am 100% Jewish. I have not yet earned a Master's degree. Oh, I am a man.

I am one who generally sits in the bleachers during such threads and reads with a smirk on my face because of the sheer pointlessness of getting involved. It is difficult enough to change one's mind during a heated discussion nonetheless over a webpage. Yet, the time has come where I will make my point and slip quietly back to work.

A question was asked to the general readers of the AikiWeb and Linden Sensei answered honestly. There have been too many posts to this thread for me to single out any one, but I will interject in a global way.

Linden Sensei trains men because it is his choice. He does not hate women to any extent. Furthermore, he does not hate Jews, blacks or any other denomination. Our dojo is made up of men of many ethnicities. This is simply a place where men can be men. We train very hard in an open-air non-air conditioned dojo. (May I remind you that we are located in Orlando, Florida…?) This place just isn't for everybody. Sensei interviews his potential students and hand picks all of his students. I'm assuming that this technique saves time and energy from obvious non-hackers.

Not more than a month ago, my mother, a tai chi instructor, visited the dojo and was greeted warmly and respectfully, participated in class and even had lunch with the class afterward. She now has a place in her heart for Linden Sensei and sends her regards each time we speak. Just two days ago, my girlfriend joined us after class and had dinner and drinks. There was no tension in the air to say the very least.

With that said, I hope my point is made. If not…too bad. I am not going to write anything further. I think that some of the comments made on this thread were disgusting. I hope some of you wrote for the sheer joy of being seen and heard

Regards to all,

Luke Taylor Brown

Shoshin Aikido Dojo
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2002, 03:45 PM   #82
Brian
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 44
Offline
I would like to clear up a few points on legality.

Many in this thread have said that Mr. Linden's policies might not hold up if legally challenged. Although he may very well lose a court battle in the 9th circuit court of appeals, or some place else in the California area, he can discriminate on any criteria he chooses since his organization is private. If he wanted to admit only those with naturally black hair, he would be legally allowed to. If he wanted to admit only those who were pigeon toed, those with widow's peaks, or those with 20/20 vision, he would be protected under the law. His is a private organization. He makes the rules. The KKK? Guess what folks! Protected under the law! (*Note* : Before I get any knee jerk reactions, no, I'm not a white supremacist. But crack open any modern college textbook on law and government, flip to the 'civil liberties' section, and I can guarantee you somewhere in that chapter will be a photograph of a KKK parade marching through the streets with police escorting them to prevent riots or violence.)
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2002, 04:54 PM   #83
Kat.C
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 212
Offline
Quote:
Christopher Li (Chris Li) wrote:
No they're not, that's why they're going co-ed .

Seperate but equal? Seperate drinking fountains for coloreds must be fine then - there's nothing stopping them both from drinking water, after all...

I'm not talking about treating people the same, I'm talking about giving people the same access, the same opportunities - what happens after that ought to, IMO, depend upon the individual, and nothing else.

Because it's convenient for your point of view. The argument itself, that biology is destiny and women and men are by their nature suited for different activities is exactly the same one that was used by men to justify locking women out of certain areas of society.

OK, so if brains function differently and it's OK to shut people in or out of certain groups because of that then why wouldn't it be wrong to (for example) shut women out of a mathematics class (since women have demonstrably lower scores in mathematics) because of their gender?

Best,

Chris
Okay to me there is a huge difference to wanting to socialise with whomever you choose or don't choose to for different activities, and laws that state that people cannot associate with certain groups, or that coloured people would have to drink out of different fountains. If some of my friends and I wish to go out with just each other and not invite anyone else to come along, or a group of us girls want to go ut out and don't want any of the men with us, that is not hate or oppression or degrading. If women want to have a gym for only women so they don't have to worry about guys oggling them, if some adults want to go out without kids, if guys want to get together with no women, what is wrong with that? I believe that creating restrictive laws, such as your examples of different drinking fountains, and banning women from math are wrong, because they affect all of those people all of the time, and they stem from one group thinking another is inferior, or from hate and fear.

Chris I stated before that I don't believe that one's gender predetermines what activities you will be good at, just that it generally affects how you percieve things. Men and women tend to see things in a different light. I don't think that being male makes you better at something then a female. (Except maybe peeing in a pop bottle!)

I think that discriminating against people who have a different skin colour is as stupid as discriminating against people with different colour hair or eyes, there is just no basis for it. It comes from fear and ignorance which leads to hate. Now I'm not saying that aren't any gender specific clubs that aren't full of people prejudiced against the other sex, just that being a single sex club doesn't neccesarily make it so.

I'm not attempting to change your mind Chris,or anyone elses, if you don't think male or female only dojos or clubs or gatherings are good,fine. I just don't think that it is neccesary to accuse people who enjoy such places of being the same as racists.

Kat

I find the aquisition of knowledge to be relatively easy, it is the application that is so difficult.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2002, 05:41 PM   #84
opherdonchin
Dojo: Baltimore Aikido
Location: Baltimore
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 586
Offline
I've been thinking about this thread a lot, and I think my thoughts about it are best summed up like this:

Exclusionary activities (including single sex institutions) have a problematic history. They should not be undertaken lightly, and it makes sense to question them and to see them in the light of that problematic history. On the other hand, you don't want to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Exclusionary activities have much to offer in different ways. They are a uniquely valuable part of our processing of discovering and understanding ourselves. There is nothing 'inherently' wrong with them, and there is a lot that is right about them. Perhaps it makes sense to think of them as a powerful and dangerous tool. That gives the sense of picking it up with a clear respect for the power and danger you are weilding, as well as the enormous amount you may have to learn from weilding it.

Yours in Aiki
Opher
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2002, 06:30 PM   #85
Chris Li
 
Chris Li's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,084
United_States
Offline
Quote:
Kathryn Cole (Kat.C) wrote:
Okay to me there is a huge difference to wanting to socialise with whomever you choose or don't choose to for different activities, and laws that state that people cannot associate with certain groups, or that coloured people would have to drink out of different fountains. If some of my friends and I wish to go out with just each other and not invite anyone else to come along, or a group of us girls want to go ut out and don't want any of the men with us, that is not hate or oppression or degrading. If women want to have a gym for only women so they don't have to worry about guys oggling them, if some adults want to go out without kids, if guys want to get together with no women, what is wrong with that?
There is a difference, and part of the difference is that between "going out with the guys" and establishing a publicly advertised exclusive group affiliated with an international organization.

In my mind, there's nothing wrong with guys getting together with no women, but I don't like the idea of that extending into formal organizations.

Best,

Chris

  Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2002, 06:33 PM   #86
Chris Li
 
Chris Li's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,084
United_States
Offline
Quote:
Brian Kerg (Brian) wrote:
I would like to clear up a few points on legality.

Many in this thread have said that Mr. Linden's policies might not hold up if legally challenged. Although he may very well lose a court battle in the 9th circuit court of appeals, or some place else in the California area, he can discriminate on any criteria he chooses since his organization is private. If he wanted to admit only those with naturally black hair, he would be legally allowed to. If he wanted to admit only those who were pigeon toed, those with widow's peaks, or those with 20/20 vision, he would be protected under the law. His is a private organization. He makes the rules. The KKK? Guess what folks! Protected under the law! (*Note* : Before I get any knee jerk reactions, no, I'm not a white supremacist. But crack open any modern college textbook on law and government, flip to the 'civil liberties' section, and I can guarantee you somewhere in that chapter will be a photograph of a KKK parade marching through the streets with police escorting them to prevent riots or violence.)
What's legal or not depends, as you say, on the jurisdiction. Certainly there are some jurisdictions in which he may have problems. Still, that doesn't mean that I can't object personally, just as I object to (for example) golf clubs that exlude women or other minorities, regardless of the fact that they may still be legal in some places.

Best,

Chris

  Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2002, 06:37 PM   #87
Chris Li
 
Chris Li's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,084
United_States
Offline
Quote:
Daniel Linden (DGLinden) wrote:
II like women and to be compared to the KKK or David Duke, to be called a mysogonist and describerd by words like 'hate' or 'bigot' is really unworthy of those who did so. I really expect more from Aikidoka. It really is about being comfortable with the person who you are and the decisions you make. A strong man listens and nods or shrugs. To be attacked by an 'aikidoka' over some decision made hundreds of miles away by someone you don't know concerning people you will never meet, well I admire your youthful zeal and salute it. Just don't ever make the mistake of calling me a racist or bigot or such to my face. But then you wouldn't would you?
I'm sorry Dan, but I don't think that "I like women" justifies gender based discrimination. And yes, I would say that to your face, why not? Give me a ring if you make it to Japan in November with Saotome.

For the record, I'd note that I've said at least twice in this thread that I believe that you ought to be able to form an exclusive group if that's what you want.

Best,

Chris

  Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2002, 07:46 PM   #88
Tadhg Bird
 
Tadhg Bird's Avatar
Dojo: New School Aikido, Stockton, CA
Location: Casper, WY
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 55
United_States
Offline
I must say this thread has indeed been ... interesting. I do have to wonder if Mr. Linden's post would have had the same reaction if it was a Mrs. Linden talking about her Women-only dojo.

I have often seen female-exclusivity praised as "empowering" whereas male-only groups cast in the light of being "deviant". Makes no sense to me.

I was a boy scout in my youth. Many of the exeperiences there would have been catagoricly different if there were adolescent girls along with us boys. Not worse, not better, but different. There is a time and place to be with just those of your gender.

On another note, there was a comment WAY WAY back in post number two:
Quote:
But, I do sometimes recommend women train with women for certain techniques when I am teaching.

To be honest, there are a few techniques in which you dont even have to recommend it. Women will just partner up with each other out of instinct over potential pitfalls of training with men at that time
Again, I ask, what techniques are these, and why? And as a rejoinder, are there techniques where it is "recommended" that men work with other men?

"Words and letters can never adequately describe Aikido -- its meaning is revealed only to those who are enlightened through hard training." -- Ueshiba Morihei O Sensei
--

http://www.AikidoStuff.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2002, 10:57 PM   #89
Chris Li
 
Chris Li's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,084
United_States
Offline
Quote:
Tadhg Bird wrote:
I must say this thread has indeed been ... interesting. I do have to wonder if Mr. Linden's post would have had the same reaction if it was a Mrs. Linden talking about her Women-only dojo.

I have often seen female-exclusivity praised as "empowering" whereas male-only groups cast in the light of being "deviant". Makes no sense to me.
Personally, I feel exactly the same way about women-only classes (with the exception of special circumstances such as abused women).

But yes, it makes no sense to me either .

Best,

Chris

  Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2002, 11:34 PM   #90
Edward
Location: Bangkok
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 803
Thailand
Offline
Just a few thoughts:

- Here in Bangkok, there are only Thai clubs, only Japanese clubs, only gay clubs, only British clubs...etc. There is a whole street reserved for the Japanese. I tried once to enter one of the bars, I was kicked out. You need to be invited to visit the British club if you don't come from a Commonwealth country. Does this discrimination disturb me, well, only when I am not allowed in, that hurts my pride. If I am allowed in, then no problem, the feeling of exclusivity is so good!

- It is interesting that people find, for instance, an only gay place quite normal, but an only strait place intolerant. The same goes for only women, only men, only black, only white... etc.

- It is true that in most instances, women add a nice feminine touch to the training, where men have to try using pure technique for a change instead of muscle power while training with ladies. However, if it is flat out intense training that you are looking for, I am sorry to tell you that most women aikidoka that I know are not able to withstand this kind of punishment, so do old people and kids. So their presence might become a hindrance if this is the kind of training you want. So like every thing else, there are pluses and minuses. Please note that I said most, because I will never forget when, about 10 years ago, a French Judoka lady, humiliated me during Judo randori training....
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2002, 11:37 PM   #91
Edward
Location: Bangkok
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 803
Thailand
Offline
I later knew that she was a member of the French olympic team !!!!!!!!
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2002, 11:51 PM   #92
Edward
Location: Bangkok
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 803
Thailand
Offline
One more thought about tolerance and intolerance:

Most people who advocate tolerance are only tolerant towards groups who share their views, and take very strong rigid positions against groups that do not share their views. I guess this doesn't make them very tolerant after all.

Last edited by Edward : 09-21-2002 at 11:58 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2002, 08:33 AM   #93
Hanna B
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 647
Sweden
Offline
Quote:
Tadhg Bird wrote:
Again, I ask, what techniques are these, and why? And as a rejoinder, are there techniques where it is "recommended" that men work with other men?
I would not recommend women to work with women specifically, nor men with men. Once, though, a man was embarrased about attacking me muna dori. I personally think this is overreacting, but when he did not want to practise this specific technique with me, I understood why and could accept it.

As I posted on AJBB some time ago, especially younger men who have not practised so long time can be kind of nervous about being thrown koshi-nage by a woman. Everybody who have problems figuring out why, please raise a hand. Anyone who thinks it is not OK to let these guys avoid practising this technique with women for as long as they need, raise the other one.

Hanna
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2002, 03:28 PM   #94
DGLinden
Dojo: Shoshin Aikido Dojos
Location: Orlando
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 159
Offline
Okay Chris, I think this has gotten out of hand. I am not going to 'call you' in November, nor am I going to step in the street and strap on six guns for some high noon crap. I teach Aikido in a Dojo which is respected and recognized. If you don't think much of my 'gender based descrimination' that is simply too bad. I don't know you or care what you think beyond the fact that one or two of your posts are clever. And you always seem to have something to say, don't you?

It's funny how when I travel around I go to dojo after dojo but never see a black man or woman on the mat. Accross the country maybe one or two. There's no descrimination, right? Just no black people. Chris, there is descrimination everywhere and the sad fact is that most people do not acknowledge it, understand it, or are even aware of it. If you ask those dojos without blacks if they 'descriminate' they will say no, of course not. It's just that the black people who come to watch a class just don't seem too comfortable. Is that it? They just don't seem to want to sign up?

Ever heard the word xenophobic? Let's see, the Japanese word for non-Japanese is, ummm, that's right, barbarian. No descrimination there.

This is not about women at all. It is about my choice to decide who will or will not train here. I am simply aware that women are not tough enough to cut it in this dojo and refuse to waste my time teaching someone who is going to be gone next month. I don't accept children under 21 or old men over 50. I don't accept people who are unemployed or without health insurance. I don't accept people who are grossly overweight or who complain about back problems the first time I meet them. There is a great long list of attributes that I consider each time someone requests to join this dojo and I 'descriminate' against PEOPLE for countless reasons.

I pick strong, intelligent, athletic, trustworthy, musical, artistic, loyal, helpful, friendly, sporting, courteous, kind, obediant, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverant men. I prefer that they be married, but it's not important if they impress me in other ways. For all intents and purposes, give me a SEAL Team or a platoon of Rangers and I'll be just fine. All others need not apply. And if they could do it without having this kind of hoodoo, most other instructors (married, non-cheating) would too. Believe it.

I am sure that ALL instructors have certain criteria for accepting students. Most simply require money. Some are more 'desriminating'. They prefer students to be clean. They like students to not have criminal records for multple murder. Whatever. I am proud of being very 'desrimnating' in my tastes. I come from an era when a man was complimented when someone said he is 'descriminating'.

One more time, last time. This is a hard school. Conditions are often brutal. Experience has taught me (the hard way) that certain types of people can't cut it here. I don't enjoy wasting my time. It is my choice and untill someone else starts paying my mortgage and electric bill it is no ones elses business but mine and the fine men who train with me.

Daniel G. Linden
Author of ON MASTERING AIKIDO (c) 2004
Founder Shoshin Aikido Dojos
www.shoshindojo.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2002, 04:03 PM   #95
Hanna B
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 647
Sweden
Offline
Quote:
Daniel Linden (DGLinden) wrote:
I pick strong, intelligent, athletic, trustworthy, musical, artistic, loyal, helpful, friendly, sporting, courteous, kind, obediant, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverant men. I prefer that they be married, but it's not important if they impress me in other ways. For all intents and purposes, give me a SEAL Team or a platoon of Rangers and I'll be just fine. All others need not apply. And if they could do it without having this kind of hoodoo, most other instructors (married, non-cheating) would too. Believe it.
All others would do the same choice as you do?

I have no trouble with what you are doing. Well, I would if I lived around and your dojo was the only one at decent distance. But, not all other instructors would take only the most elite students if they could. You are judging others after yourself. That's a mistake.

Best regards,

Hanna
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2002, 06:11 PM   #96
Chris Li
 
Chris Li's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,084
United_States
Offline
Quote:
Daniel Linden (DGLinden) wrote:
Okay Chris, I think this has gotten out of hand. I am not going to 'call you' in November, nor am I going to step in the street and strap on six guns for some high noon crap. I teach Aikido in a Dojo which is respected and recognized. If you don't think much of my 'gender based descrimination' that is simply too bad. I don't know you or care what you think beyond the fact that one or two of your posts are clever. And you always seem to have something to say, don't you?
It was an invitation Dan, not a challenge. I just meant to let me know if you make it to Japan with Saotome in November and we can get together and flap our gums or get drunk and throw up on the train platform (which is what Japanese men usually do together ) or whatever.

I'm not sure what's wrong with having something to say, but if you don't want people to comment on your policies than you probably ought not to put them out in a public forum, I think.
Quote:
Daniel Linden (DGLinden) wrote:
It's funny how when I travel around I go to dojo after dojo but never see a black man or woman on the mat. Accross the country maybe one or two. There's no descrimination, right? Just no black people. Chris, there is descrimination everywhere and the sad fact is that most people do not acknowledge it, understand it, or are even aware of it. If you ask those dojos without blacks if they 'descriminate' they will say no, of course not. It's just that the black people who come to watch a class just don't seem too comfortable. Is that it? They just don't seem to want to sign up?
Actually, I know a number of black Aikido folks, although I'd certainly agree that the percentage seems to be small. I also agree that there is discrimination everywhere - that's why I believe that it is important to eliminate organized discriminitory structures wherever possible.
Quote:
Daniel Linden (DGLinden) wrote:
Ever heard the word xenophobic? Let's see, the Japanese word for non-Japanese is, ummm, that's right, barbarian. No descrimination there.
That's more or less an urban legend. The Japanese word for non-Japanese is (most commonly) "gaijin", which just means "outside person" - pretty much the same meaning as "foreigner". Many foreign residents in Japan complain about being designated as "aliens" (in English, as in "Alien Registration Card"), but I note that US immigration and the IRS both use "alien" when referring to foreign nationals, so I wouldn't put too much weight on that.

Yes, there is discrimination in Japan. But the one doesn't justify the other.
Quote:
Daniel Linden (DGLinden) wrote:
One more time, last time. This is a hard school. Conditions are often brutal. Experience has taught me (the hard way) that certain types of people can't cut it here. I don't enjoy wasting my time. It is my choice and untill someone else starts paying my mortgage and electric bill it is no ones elses business but mine and the fine men who train with me.
If it's nobody's business then don't put it out in a public forum for comment.

I've said a number of times that I believe that you ought to have the right to do what your doing. I've also said that I believe that what you're doing is wrong. I don't think that those two statements are incompatible, and I don't think that I'm particularly out of line for expressing my opinions on statements made in a public forum.

Best,

Chris

  Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2002, 07:48 PM   #97
nic an fhilidh
Location: GA, USA
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 11
Offline
Quote:
Daniel Linden (DGLinden) wrote:
One more time, last time. This is a hard school. Conditions are often brutal. Experience has taught me (the hard way) that certain types of people can't cut it here. I don't enjoy wasting my time. It is my choice and untill someone else starts paying my mortgage and electric bill it is no ones elses business but mine and the fine men who train with me.
I don't think anyone, Chris included, has said you don't have the right to train whoever you want.

Really, the more I think about it, it's pretty honest of you to have admitted to yourself that you aren't able to deal constructively with women or other people you consider problematic, and that you'd rather keep your teaching as easy on yourself as possible.

This raises another question in my mind, though, and that is, why do you teach? It's not a trick question, I'm sincerely interested in the answer ... and the answer of any other instructor who would like to share.

- aine
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2002, 08:18 PM   #98
G DiPierro
Location: Ohio
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 365
United_States
Offline
The one thing that I find most interesting about this whole thing has not yet been mentioned. The Shoshin dojo is a member of the ASU and hence the ASU and Saotome Sensei obviously must approve of this policy. I find it a little surpising that they do, but then I don't know Saotome Sensei that well. AFAIK, no dojos in the USAF discriminate on the basis of sex (or otherwise). Given what I know about the Federation, I don't think that it would happen there. If anyone can provide a counterexample please do.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2002, 09:19 PM   #99
Deb Fisher
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 145
Offline
I want first to thank Mr. Linden for outing himself as a bigot in a public forum. He is right, discrimination does exist, everywhere, and I do think that "political correctness" obfuscates that fact, as Mr. Linden pointed out himself.

I think that the allusions to Nazi Germany, the KKK etc, are somewhat useful because this is only a discussion forum and our fingers and eyes would get all worn out if we didn't resort to some kind of shorthand for dealing with why Mr. Linden's language feels so wrong. Even though it's slightly simplified and could lead some to a not-quite-fair comparison between, say, Mr. Linden and Hitler (which is NOT my intention), I would like to indulge in one more of these comparisons. I think that the most interesting concepts to evolve out of this thread have to do with the nature of political correctness.

I think that political correctness exists today, even though it does not solve the problem of discrimination, because we are living in the aftermath of Selma, Auschwitz, Stonewall, etc. In the case of post WWI Germany, for instance, most Germans didn't hate Jews as much as they had strong preferences that sound a lot like the rationale Mr. Linden has been explicating. Similar strains of 'separate but equal' were common in the Jim Crow American south. It wasn't about hatred, it was about people knowing their place.

This bigotry, sense of separate but equal, or of 'personal preference', was very easy for evil people to exploit in troubled times - Hitler didn't create hatred for Jews in Germany, he exploited the bigotry that already existed there and without that bigotry - a bigotry that most people felt was okay and had lots of justifications for - the holocaust would not be possible.

I would argue that women face a holocaust as well, a holocaust in which at least as many women have suffered and died as in Europe, over the course of many more years. Violence against women affects hundreds of American women every day - we are raped by strangers, beaten and killed by our lovers and husbands. In the eyes of these rapists, batterers and murderers, it is culturally appropriate to violate and kill women because women are less human than men, because they have a social place, because they're always whining. Men who hurt women are act because they think they are right to hate women, because they see their own bigotry reflected all around them, in the words and deeds of people like Mr. Linden, for example, who surely would not rape or murder anyone.

... but back to political correctness. I think that it is verboten to speak of 'black behavior' or 'jewish behavior' - to categorically pronounce that a huge group of people all act the same way because of their ethnicity - because we have witnessed the insane violence that slavery, the holocaust, the civil rights movement, etc, have wrought. I think that feeling ashamed or repulsed by this talk is an act of connecting the violence itself and the attitudes that make it possible.

It deeply, deeply saddens me that we do not see the violence that women face daily and feel at least ashamed of the kind of bigotry that has been thrown about by quite a few people on this thread, among them women.

I am even more saddened that in the end Mr. Linden gets the last word. For all the political correctness in the world, of course, divisiveness and bigotry seems endemic, as well as the hatred and violence that feeds on it.

I have been thinking a lot about this thread - it gives me a very heavy heart. Why haven't we learned that divisiveness creates violence? Why haven't we all taken responsibility for that?

Last edited by Deb Fisher : 09-22-2002 at 09:28 PM.

Deb Fisher
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2002, 11:35 PM   #100
PhilJ
 
PhilJ's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Bukou
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 240
Offline
Don't stop with women, Deb. Pain, murder, war are all things that, by themselves, are not discriminating (and the same goes for joy, elation, happiness).

We're putting the weight of the world on our shoulders, and most humans can't bear that. I sure can't, no doubt.

What we can bear is our own function and our own responsibilities. It helps to think of something I was asked: when you see a lion acting like a lion in a zoo, are you surprised? A monkey acting like a monkey? How long would an animal trainer's mind last if s/he tried to train an elephant like a labrador?

Mr Linden is his own kind of person, just like everyone else. I whole-heartedly disagree with his perspective, but that's just it: a viewpoint.

Views are created by past experience. It is impossible for us to change someone's "experience". Take a 30-year old and try to convince him/her that the red iron on the stove top isn't hot and is okay to touch.

What we can do is learn from the people we disagree with -- at least, we learn about ourselves. "Ourself" is what we CAN try to control (masakatsu agatsu) and refine our self-technique. Mr Linden has already shown me a couple things I didn't know about myself, and I thank you for that Daniel.

As an aikidoist, I will concern myself with men and women. These people, even the ones I don't like, are our family and the ones we protect from each other and themselves when we have to.

What is truly the aiki response here?

Phillip Johnson
Enso Aikido Dojo, Burnsville, MN
An Aikido Bukou Dojo
http://www.aikidobukou.com
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The Nage/Uke Dynamic - Guidelines senshincenter General 47 02-20-2006 06:20 PM
David's Drills Pauliina Lievonen General 34 02-05-2006 01:18 AM
committed attack/sensitive ukemi paradox Janet Rosen Training 30 10-13-2005 08:18 PM
*Really* Tough Training… jxa127 Training 29 05-09-2001 08:49 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:37 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate