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Old 09-16-2002, 06:45 PM   #1
Paula Lydon
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seigan

Hi all! How exactly does seigan translate? Is it more a concept than something physical?
Thanks

~~Paula~~
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Old 09-16-2002, 07:34 PM   #2
Thalib
 
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I'm not familiar with this term. Is it written with "sei" as in "iki"(life) and "gan" as in "me"(eyes)?

THe closes sounding term I've heard is "seika" as in "seika (no) tanden" and "seika no itten".

Would be interesting to find out what "seigan" means.

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Old 09-16-2002, 07:39 PM   #3
Kent Enfield
 
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Re: seigan

Quote:
Paula Lydon wrote:
Hi all! How exactly does seigan translate? Is it more a concept than something physical?
I'm assuming you're referring to the kamae. In that case seigan is: .

(sei) is correct, right.

(gan) is eye(s).

I'm sure someone knows a double meaning for the term, but as far as I know, it's called that because you point the sword at your opponent's eyes.

Kentokuseisei
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Old 09-16-2002, 07:52 PM   #4
Thalib
 
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ah... "sei" as in "tadashii"...

Doesn't it refer to one's own eyes? As one's eyes must be focused.

Does it have to do with "ken"(everyday, physical seeing) and "kan"(seeing beyond the physical)?

So many questions... guess I'm not helping that much...

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Old 09-17-2002, 08:23 AM   #5
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Smile

Hmm, well best i can come out with is, Aiming at the eye (with a sword)

or an Oath like an oath of office

seigan - oath

seiganken - oath of office

so it could be either

if you look at seigain as sei, gan

you get something about strength or military and gan doesnt give anything at all.

so i guess its more of an oath,

in what context is it being used?

Aikido faq lists it as

(Natural step, fundamental kamae.)

so i'm thoroughly confudled, why couldnt the japanese have ONE alphabet instead of 3?

eeep

pete

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Old 09-17-2002, 11:15 AM   #6
Alfonso
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Doka of the Day - September 17, 2002

Assume gedan and see

The spirit of the positive (yo) as in shadow (in).

Recognize the cuts and thrusts of the enemy's blade

As merely seigan.



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Old 09-02-2010, 07:11 AM   #7
dps
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Re: seigan

Is there any newer insight into how seigan translates?

"Assume gedan and see
The spirit of the positive (yo) as in shadow (in).
Recognize the cuts and thrusts of the enemy's blade
As merely seigan."

- Morihei Ueshiba

David

Last edited by dps : 09-02-2010 at 07:15 AM.
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Old 09-02-2010, 10:38 AM   #8
Josh Reyer
 
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Re: seigan

Consider that a gedan posture, and indeed a seigan kamae, have the hands and hilt of the sword fixed to or near the navel. The navel is considered the seat of the mind in traditional Japanese thought, and of course is the general location of the seika tanden (seika - below the navel). Thus, while we physically see with our eyes (nikugan, flesh eyes), we see/perceive intuitively with our seigan (true eye, or alternatively "pure eye" with the kanji that Ueshiba uses).

Incidentally, there is no reference to "the enemy" in the original doka.

下段をば Gedan wo ba
陽の心を You no kokoro wo
陰に見て Kage ni mite or In ni mite
打突く剣を Uchizuku ken wo
清眼と知れ Seigan to shire

I'd translate the last part simply as "Know the striking, thrusting sword (or the sword that strikes and cuts) as seigan." In context it could very easily apply to your own cutting and thrusting blade.

Josh Reyer

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Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
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Old 09-02-2010, 10:56 AM   #9
TheAikidoka
 
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Re: seigan

Seigan is the stance wwhen holding the sword, you point it directly at your oppenents eye`s. My source for this is from, the life giving sword by yagyu munenori, chief instructor to Tokogawa leyasu, translated by william scott wilson.
The tip of the katana, is shaped so, because it is this that contains the Samurai soul, and it is this that you present to the world, Blind your opponent with your spirit, and victory will be assuered.
well this is not an exact quote from the book but my intrerpretation. but seigan is pointing the sword directly at your oppents eye`s, in the Yagu tradition.
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Old 09-02-2010, 03:18 PM   #10
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Re: seigan

And then, in a more advanced level in Katori Shinto Ryu the tip of the sword in seigan no kamae seems to point to the chest. Or so they say.
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Old 09-02-2010, 04:37 PM   #11
Josh Reyer
 
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Re: seigan

I practice Yagyu Shinkage-ryu, and seigan has nothing to do with pointing the sword at the opponent's eyes.

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
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Old 09-02-2010, 05:45 PM   #12
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Re: seigan

If you could eloaborate a litlle more would be useful, as I understand it,yagyu munenori`s line is practiced by the minority being the edo line. I could be wrong but I do beleive that is correct, The oyama line is now practiced by more people in Japan.
Only a few practice the teachings of yagyu munenori as the headmastership did not pass to him, but the grandson of the founder of yagyu shinakage ryu, as it was said he was more of character of the founder! Please correct me if I am wrong, criticism is a must for improvement of self and knowledge.

In Budo,

Andy B
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Old 09-02-2010, 07:45 PM   #13
TheAikidoka
 
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Re: seigan

Joshua, Ive just flicked through my copy of, the life giving sword and can find no specific translation, of seigan, please except my appoogy.
However, on page 139, in the illustrated catallouge of the shinkage ryu martial arts the, en no tachi, "when your opponent takes the chudan stance, aiming the tip of his sword at your eye`s........" , this I believe is what is ment by taking the seigan stance, as in, seigan no kamae. As I understand it, some schools call this chudan, others seigan, when talking about this specifically. Again please correct me if I am wrong in this matter.

On another note, I understand its the owari line not oyama, that is now the main line yagyu shinkage ryu. I was at work when typing my last post and rushing the reply.

In Budo

Andy B
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Old 09-02-2010, 11:20 PM   #14
kidoman
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Re: seigan

Seigan in Kenjutsu refers to middle sword position standing in migi (right) kamae similar to Chudan referred to in Aikido.
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Old 09-03-2010, 07:12 AM   #15
Rennis Buchner
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Re: seigan

Quote:
Salvatore Forestieri wrote: View Post
Seigan in Kenjutsu refers to middle sword position standing in migi (right) kamae similar to Chudan referred to in Aikido.
This will vary greatly from ryu to ryu. While it is true that in general, especially kendo circles, seigan is known as a sort of "high chudan", there are many ryu which use the term with different purposes and very different physical manifestations. In my own ryu "seigan" is used to define a very different concept than the "pointed at the eyes" descriptions most kendo types will give you. Also while our version of the kamae seigan does involve a certain degree of "pointing at the eyes" (although this is not the primary purpose of it), the actual kamae is very different to the "high chudan" most think of when discussing "seigan".

So simply put, in most modern circles seigan equals a high chudan with the kissaki pointed at the enemy's eyes, but when you start getting into the details of different ryu, that understanding may not apply.

For what it's worth,
Rennis Buchner
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Old 09-03-2010, 10:14 AM   #16
TheAikidoka
 
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Re: seigan

Thank you rennis, that was a much better description. can I ask, which ryu, that you practice and with wich dojo? I am fascinated at the multitdude of kenjitsu ryuha, in Japn, I am hoping to go one day ;-) If I can persuade my fiance it`s a good idea!
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Old 09-03-2010, 11:28 AM   #17
Josh Reyer
 
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Re: seigan

Quote:
Andrew Bedford wrote: View Post
Joshua, Ive just flicked through my copy of, the life giving sword and can find no specific translation, of seigan, please except my appoogy.
However, on page 139, in the illustrated catallouge of the shinkage ryu martial arts the, en no tachi, "when your opponent takes the chudan stance, aiming the tip of his sword at your eye`s........" , this I believe is what is ment by taking the seigan stance, as in, seigan no kamae. As I understand it, some schools call this chudan, others seigan, when talking about this specifically. Again please correct me if I am wrong in this matter.
Yagyu Shinkage-ryu uses the terms jodan, chudan and gedan differently from other ryuha, or modern kendo. Usually, these are three distinct stances. In Shinkage-ryu, they refer to general areas where the sword is held. Jodan, then, is any stance where the sword is held above the nipples, be that straight over head (what is typically thought of as "jodan") or held beside the head (what is typically thought of as "hasso"), or even with the sword pointed toward the enemy. Chudan refers to any stance with the sword held from the nipples down to the obi. Gedan refers to any stance with the sword held below the obi.

Seigan, OTOH, is completely separate from chudan. It refers to a stance with the body turned obliquely to the enemy, sword pointed towards him, the left hand in line with one's own center line. Seigan can be in jodan, or chudan. In various kata the swordtip is pointed at the opponent's eye, his throat, or even his wrist.

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
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Old 09-03-2010, 01:45 PM   #18
Cliff Judge
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Re: seigan

Ono-ha Itto Ryu has that typical kendo seigan.
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